Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 61 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 1824 Old 05-18-2015, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
Raising VOLSUS isnt that great
lower YSUS_B and XSUS_B until a 100% white field is clean instead.
i have both of them at 124 (128 default)
VOLSUS is still at 128

you are quoting the new reset and evaluate method but you have just lowered the voltages.
do a test and set all voltages back to default and instead try the new reset method and see how it looks.
if it performs worse than you have now you can just roll back to were you are now.
YSUS and XSUS don't seem to do anything on my non-reset 141fd and 500M. I even set them both to their lower limit of 112 and no change.

VOL SUS on the other hand, worked to perfection.
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post #1802 of 1824 Old 05-18-2015, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Thanks for the advice on changing VOL SUS. During my testing it helped with misfires but I wouldn't have tried raising it that high without your advice. Picture is pretty stable now. I get a few misfires on the white portion of the AVS 709 main menu but nothing in content and the picture seems much more stable now (for lack of a better term). Full screen white still flickers a bit but I don't know if this just a Kuro thing....I never saw this TV when new. Red tint is pretty much gone and my iD3 can't measure the blacks. I left RSTP alone since lowering it gave me splotchy blacks.


My set is a 5020FD with roughly 10k hours (or 12k....I forget).


Factory:


VOL SUS: 128
VOL OFFSET: 140
VOL RST P: 012
VOL XPOFS1: 085
VOL XPOFS2: 047
VOL YKNOFS1 D: 143
VOL YKNOFS3 D: 128
VOL YKNOFS4 D: 172

VOL YKNOFSA D: 128


New Settings:


VOL SUS: 228
VOL OFFSET: 140
VOL RST P: 012
VOL XPOFS1: 085
VOL XPOFS2: 047
VOL YKNOFS1 D: 93
VOL YKNOFS3 D: 78

VOL YKNOFS4 D: 122
VOL YKNOFSA D: 128
I am assuming you did not reset?

Did you have any misfires with default voltages? If you didn't then keep in mind that for every 10 tick reduction of S1/S3/S4 (or SAD), you must increase SUS by 20 ticks to maintain misfire free picture (you may have to go 10 tick higher if you see remaining misfires).

If you do have misfires at default, increase SUS until they go away and then reduce S1/S3/S4 (or SAD) to your liking while increasing SUS by double the reduction amount.

Also, increasing SUS will affect your calibration, as the peak light output will increase and you will see blue push on grayscale. Both my Kuro's push toward blue when the calibration drifts due to age, so this may be an indication of SUS increase as the panel ages.
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post #1803 of 1824 Old 05-18-2015, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I am assuming you did not reset?

Did you have any misfires with default voltages? If you didn't then keep in mind that for every 10 tick reduction of S1/S3/S4 (or SAD), you must increase SUS by 20 ticks to maintain misfire free picture (you may have to go 10 tick higher if you see remaining misfires).

If you do have misfires at default, increase SUS until they go away and then reduce S1/S3/S4 (or SAD) to your liking while increasing SUS by double the reduction amount.

Also, increasing SUS will affect your calibration, as the peak light output will increase and you will see blue push on grayscale. Both my Kuro's push toward blue when the calibration drifts due to age, so this may be an indication of SUS increase as the panel ages.
I didn't reset. Only problem with default voltages was red tint. Currently I added 20 ticks to SUS for each ten ticks I took out of S1/S3/S4 (And I had to go way below the minimums listed in the manual). All other voltages are untouched. I don't know how to use the internal test patterns so I test with letterbox movies and AVS HD709. I still see a few misfires on the main menu of the AVS disc. Next time I boot it up I'll try to add a few more ticks so SUS while leaving the rest alone to see if I can remove the remaining misfires.


My grayscale didn't seem to change much with the increase in SUS.
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post #1804 of 1824 Old 05-18-2015, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I didn't reset. Only problem with default voltages was red tint. Currently I added 20 ticks to SUS for each ten ticks I took out of S1/S3/S4 (And I had to go way below the minimums listed in the manual). All other voltages are untouched. I don't know how to use the internal test patterns so I test with letterbox movies and AVS HD709. I still see a few misfires on the main menu of the AVS disc. Next time I boot it up I'll try to add a few more ticks so SUS while leaving the rest alone to see if I can remove the remaining misfires.


My grayscale didn't seem to change much with the increase in SUS.
You're at 30 ticks below minimums, which explains the high SUS needed to clear magenta misfires. Was that the needed adjustment to get rid of all of your red tint?

You might want to test a 5% IRE full field. On some tweaked/reset 9th generation sets that I've seen (including my 141fd), the 5% IRE full field will be littered with dark purple pixels. These are different from the magenta misfires as these are static and don't go away until you put something else on the screen (like a 10% IRE full field). This may be the 9th generation equivalent of black rain, as I've never seen the black rain that is common on the 9.5's on the 9th gens. I saw these purple pixels while watching Interstellar. It was at around the 1:29:25 mark.

A 5% IRE full field looks clean on my 500M even when tweaked below minimums, so perhaps this is exclusive to 9th gen sets.

I will try to do some testing tonight to see if there's a way to remove these artifacts. I have a feeling increasing S1/S3/S4 will be the only way.
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post #1805 of 1824 Old 05-19-2015, 07:01 AM
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I had to go that low to get rid of the red tint.


I increased SUS five more ticks and that seems to have eliminated the misfires.


On a full screen 5% IRE pattern I DO get some purple splotches. Mostly looks like a LED TV's uneven backlighting. Especially apparent at the bottom edge (where the red tint was the worst...may or may not be related). But I don't consider it to be a huge deal. Most of the slides below around 50% or so aren't perfectly uniform in any case.

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post #1806 of 1824 Old 05-19-2015, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I had to go that low to get rid of the red tint.


I increased SUS five more ticks and that seems to have eliminated the misfires.


On a full screen 5% IRE pattern I DO get some purple splotches. Mostly looks like a LED TV's uneven backlighting. Especially apparent at the bottom edge (where the red tint was the worst...may or may not be related). But I don't consider it to be a huge deal. Most of the slides below around 50% or so aren't perfectly uniform in any case.
So the 2 for 1 adjustment ratio is approximate It seems.

I wouldnt call what I see on my 141fd splotches or anything similar to LED backlight. These are full fledged purple pixels.

I will try ti take a picture tonight. Try that Interstellar scene. If you dont see any artifacts, then you have nothing to worry about.
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post #1807 of 1824 Old 05-19-2015, 06:53 PM
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Finally got a chance to upload the Pioneer Kuro Summer 2008 demo. This is the one that contains material for testing black rain/lag.

Pioneer Kuro Summer 2008 Demo Download
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post #1808 of 1824 Old 05-22-2015, 11:55 PM
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Nice demo

I finally found out how to deal with the CMS to end up with the kind of charts d-nice gets on his cals.
Until now it was impossible to me to have a greyscale as flat as shown on his reports, now I do.

Do as usual, adjust greyscale, as flat as possible from 30% up.
You should end up with some roll off or some raise from 20% down. 5% delta is acceptable at 10%, it's not at 20%.

If your 20% isn't flat, put your pattern on screen, read continuous, and use the CMS primaries only to fix your low end greyscale.
On my case only red needed 1 click to flatten the low end.

Check the whole greyscale again, you should end up with dEuv (with relative Y) lower than 1 everywhere except 20% and lower, that should be under 2.

When your greyscale is right, jump to gamut, and use the CMS secondaries only to move them where they belong, if needed to.

If you made a change, recheck greyscale, if still allright, you're done, otherwise repeat from the start until everything is perfect.

Note : when I raised Red CMS to +1, I had to put 1 more click on Red High.
Caution : Green CMS must be handled with care or it will screw up everything, I wouldn't even try to tweak it more than 1 click either side if your greyscale is flat enough from 20% upwards.
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post #1809 of 1824 Old 05-24-2015, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Nice demo

I finally found out how to deal with the CMS to end up with the kind of charts d-nice gets on his cals.
Until now it was impossible to me to have a greyscale as flat as shown on his reports, now I do.

Do as usual, adjust greyscale, as flat as possible from 30% up.
You should end up with some roll off or some raise from 20% down. 5% delta is acceptable at 10%, it's not at 20%.

If your 20% isn't flat, put your pattern on screen, read continuous, and use the CMS primaries only to fix your low end greyscale.
On my case only red needed 1 click to flatten the low end.

Check the whole greyscale again, you should end up with dEuv (with relative Y) lower than 1 everywhere except 20% and lower, that should be under 2.

When your greyscale is right, jump to gamut, and use the CMS secondaries only to move them where they belong, if needed to.

If you made a change, recheck greyscale, if still allright, you're done, otherwise repeat from the start until everything is perfect.

Note : when I raised Red CMS to +1, I had to put 1 more click on Red High.
Caution : Green CMS must be handled with care or it will screw up everything, I wouldn't even try to tweak it more than 1 click either side if your greyscale is flat enough from 20% upwards.

Hi Inarbi,

I have just started using the Red, Green and Blue X,Y controls from within the PANEL FUNCTION menu in the Service Menu with superb results. I have managed to get great results and have got Red and Green to reference Rec. 709 standard (Rx: 0.640 Ry: 0.330 & Gx: 0.300 Gy: 0.600). Blue is more tricky on the KRP the y coordinate is not fixable at all but got Bx to 0.150 which is reference but you can only get By to 0.066. The results when the Hue and Saturation points are spot on like this is a great depth to the picture.

The good thing about these adjustments in the SM is that they do not screw up the grayscale at all, they seem to be independent unlike the CMS. All that I needed to do was adjust Yellow and Cyan one notch to bring them into line.

I'll upload my charts when I get a chance.

Pioneer KRP-500A | Sony STR-DH810 Receiver | Tannoy HTS101 Speakers
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post #1810 of 1824 Old 05-24-2015, 04:25 PM
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I would not touch them without a reference spectro, what you measure is not reality, each colorimeter is off on its own.

I compared intensively 2 greyscale settings today.

The first one is the best dEuv over the entire range :


The second one is when raising blue and red high 1 click :


You notice how the 20% "mess" is gone and how the whole greyscale is linear end to end ?

After my comparisons, not one time did the first one feel better than the second one.
I used Zoyd's profile for the display pro on a jeti 1211, and using it made several clicks difference on the RGB controls, for the better. But that still doesn't make it perfectly reliable, as not profiled on my meter, and not on the same plasma.
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post #1811 of 1824 Old 05-24-2015, 06:34 PM
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Interesting charts Inarbi, I do not have any 20% mess at all on my grayscale it's nice and flat across the whole range.

When you say you would not touch the x,y point adjustments in the SM without a Reference Spectro can I ask why that is as I'm using the same Meter for all of my DIY calibrating (White Balance, Gamma, CMS etc) so I understand that I may be a touch off reference compared to a more expensive meter.

The results are really nice, a definite improvement visually by eye when the adjustments have been made.

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post #1812 of 1824 Old Yesterday, 12:05 AM
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Are you sure your greyscale is perfectly flat ? The charts are zoomed, if I zoom out they're flat too.
DeltaE is in UV, any other deltaE formula the 2.6 one at 20% would be lower than 0.5, pretty for the eyes but useless.

I use high APL windows for the greyscale, more accurate at 10%; with non APL windows my 20% remains flat too, but I think it shows interesting things with APL that don't show up with normal windows.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
I use high APL windows for the greyscale, more accurate at 10%; with non APL windows my 20% remains flat too, but I think it shows interesting things with APL that don't show up with normal windows.
whiteballance changes some when ABL is in use i have seen it too.
bump up ABL to 200 or more then check again.
whiteballance is more stable now.

not only will you get a brighter picture with less dimming and more stable gamma with higher ABL you will also get a more stable whiteballance on real content.
if you want to risk reduced lifespan/more heat (if you not have a KRP with the fans running all the time) and higher power consumtion that is
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So I gave it a shot to see how the coordinates adjustments interact with the rest.

Like D-Nice said, you will move the primaries, but not the secondaries.
Blue y can't be adjusted, only x.
I tried to move the blue point to be in line with the other saturations from white tu 100% blue (which is the point btw), but doing this brings the blue point further inside the triangle, being even more off than default.
So no interest in moving blue.

Green can be put perfectly in its target, but when it's done, cyan will be outside the primaries triangle on saturation (and that cannot be ajusted). So because of cyan, green is better left alone too.

That leaves us red, where a perfect point gives perfect coordinates, and perfect luminance. Sounds good but... look at greyscale :


The reference graph is the second one some posts before. The low end is worse, and it raises blue.

Not worth it imo, I left them all to default.

Last edited by lnarbi; Yesterday at 01:44 AM.
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OK, here are my charts. I was zoomed out a bit which made them look really good but I have zoomed in to show a truer picture.
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Sounds good
Your dE values are underrated, switch to relative Y luminance in the settings.
What I dislike is red and blue crossing constantly the green curve on RGB graph, it's probably not an issue at all, I just dislike

What patterns do you use ?
The pattern type makes quite a difference on the low end.
Attached 1 greyscale with full screen APL around 25%grey + a set of little x% grey windows around center, and the other greyscale with TED's disk. Both exactly the same settings, and same correction file.
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OK, here are my chart using relative Y. I use Mascior's Calibration Disc 15% standard windows.

What is the best DE to use for primary and secondary colors? Is it CIE76 or CIE2000? HCFR does default to CIE2000 when measuring colors.
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post #1818 of 1824 Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM
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CIE94 or CIE2000 for colors.
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Should I be using relative Y for all of my calibrating? The errors are bigger at the lower end of the gray scale so is this more accurate than using Absolute Y?

Cheers

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so the reset thread has become a calibrate a kuro thread?
start a new thread instead.

this is my kuro when measuring 750 patches all over the gamut.
A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box
NOW we talking dEs
get over this stone age calibration method
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
Should I be using relative Y for all of my calibrating? The errors are bigger at the lower end of the gray scale so is this more accurate than using Absolute Y?
Cheers
It shows only the amount of RGB differences relative to each other, which is what you want for greyscale, for gamut these settings are not effective anyway (the Y part, the dE formula is).

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so the reset thread has become a calibrate a kuro thread?
start a new thread instead.
You're not wrong
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post #1822 of 1824 Old Yesterday, 11:42 PM
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Sorry I did get a bit off track!

Back to resets

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post #1823 of 1824 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Hi Kuro users,

Here are my voltages adjustments:

My Panel has not been reset. The model is a LX5090, European Model.

I tweaked the S1, S3 and S4 with Vol Sus
And RSTP to 001.

I checked what was the real RSTP value (put it a zero came out from SM followed by a TV unplug), My RSTP showed up at 18.
Before, RSTP was at 26

Before tweak:

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 128
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 113
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 026
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 085
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 138
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 128
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 149
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128


After tweak:

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 168 (40 clicks increase in relation with the FS1, 2, 4 decrease)
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 93 (20 clicks decrease)
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 001
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 085
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 118 (20 clicks decrease)
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 108 (20 clicks decrease)
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 129 (20 clicks decrease)
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128

I wanted to thank Makaveddie81 for his help and assistance. I managed to lower the black. I still can see some IR, transition between clear to dark images. The other point which bothers me is the dancing pixels on clear images. The picture is not clean. Can I improve it?

And also how can user the masks while playing with the voltages? Is it possible? Can we see the changes live?

Thanks for your precious help.

R
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post #1824 of 1824 Old Today, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robusta View Post
Hi Kuro users,

Here are my voltages adjustments:

My Panel has not been reset. The model is a LX5090, European Model.

I tweaked the S1, S3 and S4 with Vol Sus
And RSTP to 001.

I checked what was the real RSTP value (put it a zero came out from SM followed by a TV unplug), My RSTP showed up at 18.
Before, RSTP was at 26

Before tweak:

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 128
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 113
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 026
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 085
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 138
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 128
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 149
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128


After tweak:

0 ECO: QAJ
1 Vsus adjustment value: 168 (40 clicks increase in relation with the FS1, 2, 4 decrease)
2 Vysnofs adjustment value: 93 (20 clicks decrease)
3 Vyprst adjustment value: 001
4 Vxpofs1 adjustment value: 085
5 Vxpofs2 adjustment value: 063
6 Vyknofs1,2 adjustment value: 118 (20 clicks decrease)
7 Vyknofs3 adjustment value: 108 (20 clicks decrease)
8 Vyknofs4 adjustment value: 129 (20 clicks decrease)
9 Vyknofs1,2/3/4 adjustment value: 128

I wanted to thank Makaveddie81 for his help and assistance. I managed to lower the black. I still can see some IR, transition between clear to dark images. The other point which bothers me is the dancing pixels on clear images. The picture is not clean. Can I improve it?

And also how can user the masks while playing with the voltages? Is it possible? Can we see the changes live?

Thanks for your precious help.

R
The IR is normal on tweaked and reset panels. Remember, we are under volting the panel.

Your rstp value set at the factory is 26, 18 is default that was programmed prior to factory adjustment.

White sparkles in black is caused by high vol sus. I would set back vol sus and vysnofs back to defaults and decrease s1, s3 and s4 by only 10 ticks below default. Setting these too low causes the picture to look dirty (and IR, black rain), which is why I now only reduce them half way between default and factory minimum spec. No need to go that low if your panel does not have red tint. Chasing 0 blacks is fruitless, as these panels were not designed to accomplish this without the anomalies that youre experiencing.

If you use my Kuro Command program, you can definitely change voltages while the patterns are up. You simply send commands to change voltages while the patterns are up and see the change real time. Don't get carried away by trying to get the patterns clean. Remember, these are the worst case scenarios, so some magenta is OK.
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