Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 62 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1831 of 1859 Old 06-05-2015, 09:29 AM
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As you said, they are panel specific and you should have saved them.
They indeed control the greyscale, but after a reset these settings are not right anymore anyway and should be adjusted accordingly from what is returned by the QSI command after a reset.
That's the only way to keep your calibration after a reset, otherwise you will have to raise blue much more than you normally should (blue ages faster, algorithms move red and green over time accordingly).

A new panel should have red and green somewhere between 490 and 510, blue in general stays at 500.
On my panel after around 14k hours my adjusted PRH was 424 and PGH was 440 (50Hz).

But you can leave them all at 500 it works too, you just have to calibrate accordingly, and depending on your display's hours, you will probably have to raise blue over +10.

Note : 75VS2 must be adjusted too if you adjust 75VS1 only, things will be messed up at 50Hz.

Don't touch the RGB lows, they only affect 10% and 15% on greyscale, 5% won't follow, and this is a bad thing.
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post #1832 of 1859 Old 06-05-2015, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
As you said, they are panel specific and you should have saved them.
They indeed control the greyscale, but after a reset these settings are not right anymore anyway and should be adjusted accordingly from what is returned by the QSI command after a reset.
That's the only way to keep your calibration after a reset, otherwise you will have to raise blue much more than you normally should (blue ages faster, algorithms move red and green over time accordingly).

A new panel should have red and green somewhere between 490 and 510, blue in general stays at 500.
On my panel after around 14k hours my adjusted PRH was 424 and PGH was 440 (50Hz).

But you can leave them all at 500 it works too, you just have to calibrate accordingly, and depending on your display's hours, you will probably have to raise blue over +10.

Note : 75VS2 must be adjusted too if you adjust 75VS1 only, things will be messed up at 50Hz.

Don't touch the RGB lows, they only affect 10% and 15% on greyscale, 5% won't follow, and this is a bad thing.
If all these service menu controls do is alter the grayscale the same way the controls in ControlCal do, then I am not worried. I was thinking they did something else. I do have an Eye One Pro and I can calibrate the grayscale fairly easily.

What I think I did was alter the R-High, R-Low, G-High, G-Low, B-High, B-Low controls for 60VS and 50VS to equal those for 72VS. I don't recall why I did this exactly but I know they were somewhat different before. I know that B-High, R-Low, G-Low and B-Low were all set at 500 and the only ones that changed were R-High and G-High.

The issue then becomes running the calibration disc at both 72vs and 60vs, if the grayscale would be different between them based on changing these controls. Is there an easy way to tell if what you are playing is displaying at what frequency?
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post #1833 of 1859 Old 06-05-2015, 01:36 PM
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When you're displaying something type QSI in hyperterminal, the frequency used will be returned at the beginning (72VS, 60VS, etc).
All the modes on mine had different values, I think they are all calibrated at the factory to give the same results regardless of drive frequency.

The thing I don't know is if there are some specific steps to look for that are better than others (I think d-nice told about that once), but the steps are far more tiny than the ones in controlcal, I'd say 1 step in controlcal would be 10 to 15 steps in the service menu, something like that.
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post #1834 of 1859 Old 06-10-2015, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
These are the formula to get the vsus voltage :
Real VSUS = Vsus_ADJ x 18.182 + 175
Real VSUS = VSUS SM value x 0.234 + 175
Went back a few pages to refresh on new info and, if I'm not mistaken, the second formula points to real VSUS staying constant throughout the TV's lifetime as the VSUS SM value always remains at 128.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.
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post #1835 of 1859 Old 06-10-2015, 10:55 PM
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It helps you get the correct SM value for your targeted real VSUS for your panel.

You open up your panel before a reset and measure Vsus_adj.
From this you get the VSUS voltage with first formula.
Then you get the SM value you have to set after reset with the 2nd formula to keep the same vsus real voltage.

It's one way to do things.
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post #1836 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
It helps you get the correct SM value for your targeted real VSUS for your panel.

You open up your panel before a reset and measure Vsus_adj.
From this you get the VSUS voltage with first formula.
Then you get the SM value you have to set after reset with the 2nd formula to keep the same vsus real voltage.

It's one way to do things.
I guess the best way to know if VSUS increases over time (and thus needs adjustment after reeet) is to measure vsus_adj before and after reset. Has anyone actually done this?
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post #1837 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 12:49 AM
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We don't need to know IF, that is already known, most only choose to ignore it.
I'm over it anyway, my reset panel behaves like a new one out of the box, with no secondary effects at all, and stock black levels (0.001fL), and I'm perfectly happy with that. And that was from minutes after reset (time needed to set all the adjustments from calculated values) not several hundred hours, and nothing has changed since.
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post #1838 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 01:35 AM
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Hi,

I may have the opportunity to buy a 60 inch european model LX608D (think equals to us model 150FD) for $200 (!)

Does anyone have any experience of voltage adjustments (or a reset) of this 8G model?

My 50 inch 9G kuro is very easy to adjust post a reset, but what I understand the 60 inch models may be more difficult / demanding ?

/Andreas
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post #1839 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
We don't need to know IF, that is already known, most only choose to ignore it.
I'm over it anyway, my reset panel behaves like a new one out of the box, with no secondary effects at all, and stock black levels (0.001fL), and I'm perfectly happy with that. And that was from minutes after reset (time needed to set all the adjustments from calculated values) not several hundred hours, and nothing has changed since.
I've performed the safe reset on multiple sets across the entire model lineup and, although the post reset symptoms differ, the recovery process seems to be the same for all models, as they all react the same to adjustment.

The problem is, vol sus is not the only offset that removes post reset misfires when increased. On the 60 inch sets, rstp and sad (along with vol sus) clear all post reset artifacts when increased. On the 50 inch sets, sad and vol sus remove post reset misfires when increased, while rstp does nothing with regards to misfire removal. So unless someone is removing the back panel and measuring these voltages pre and post reset, we'll never know which voltages to adjust nor the adjustment amount. The other problem is that, since both rstp and sad raise black level, its hard to know which one (or conbination of both) to raise when setting the black level back to stock.

As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. But with Kuro, there is only one right way to recover a reset display.

I have a few theories in mind that I want to test, I just need to find the time to do so.

One thing that I've wondered is whether or not the red tint reappears as soon as stock black level is achieved after reset, taking you back to square one. If your set had red tint prior to reset, can you elaborate on whether or not you found yourself back in square one, red tint and all, after post reset adjustments?
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post #1840 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 01:54 AM
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At stock levels red tint is not visible, at least at this time.

If you want to try it with your safe reset method, and using your kurokapture displaying the content type you're going to compare (say blu ray, so 72Hz) make a backup first.

Look at QSI section, at your total ABL value, then at your QPW section, the ABL adjustment value. Make the difference between them, you will get an offset, let's say A.

If you want to keep calibration, do the same for PRH and PGH values, look at QSI values, do 1000 - total PRH = auto adjusted PRH, this is your new PRH after reset. Same goes for green.

After reset :

VSUS = 128 +A
VOF = factory value - A
ABL on each mode = adjustment value (in PQW) -A
RSTP = original factory value +A

Set new PRH and PGH values as computed before, and you're done.
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post #1841 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
At stock levels red tint is not visible, at least at this time.

If you want to try it with your safe reset method, and using your kurokapture displaying the content type you're going to compare (say blu ray, so 72Hz) make a backup first.

Look at QSI section, at your total ABL value, then at your QPW section, the ABL adjustment value. Make the difference between them, you will get an offset, let's say A.

If you want to keep calibration, do the same for PRH and PGH values, look at QSI values, do 1000 - total PRH = auto adjusted PRH, this is your new PRH after reset. Same goes for green.

After reset :

VSUS = 128 +A
VOF = factory value - A
ABL on each mode = adjustment value (in PQW) -A
RSTP = original factory value +A

Set new PRH and PGH values as computed before, and you're done.
Using the compare plugin on notepad++ i compared the pre and post reset captures (pulse meter reset only) and, aside from the obvious differences (pulse meter, hour meter, power on counter and temperature related status) it found the below differences.

Under QMT (pre reset is first value, post is second)

3 A/D value of room light sensor: 000
3 A/D value of room light sensor: 001

Under QSI (pre reset is first values, post is second)

5 Total value of PRH: 0640
6 Total value of PGH: 0539
12 Total value of ABL: 106
15 APL acquiring data: 0386
16 Number of SUS pulses: 0728
23 Detection status of reset operation: A All reset operation

5 Total value of PRH: 0521
6 Total value of PGH: 0468
12 Total value of ABL: 109
15 APL acquiring data: 0025
16 Number of SUS pulses: 1834
23 Detection status of reset operation: 2 Interlace 1/2 reset operation

When comparing my pre and post reset grayscale measurements, post reset is extremely heavy on red. So by your formula, would my correct value for PRH be new PRH = 1000-640?

Are the PXH and PXL settings different for each mode?
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post #1842 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 11:51 AM
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You need to write a few things to not be lost with all the values.

PRH before reset (under QPW section), total PRH before reset.
Your PRH after reset will remain at default, and need to be changed to the new calculated value.

So based on your data...
Total PRH after reset is 521 so your PRH setting under QPW should be 479, from factory.

You can use the before and after total PRH value too to calculate the delta, in your case 640-521 = 119, so your value of 479 must be lowered by 119, this gives 360 as a value for PRH (so you type PRH360), then type QSI again, your new total PRH value should be 640 as before.

Yes this is specific to each mode, and must be done on 60, 72, 75V1, 75V2 and 50Hz, but for a quick test if you only watch 24Hz content, the 72Hz one will be enough to check the results.

Note : your delta is really huge on red, @14k hours I only have about half of it.
Note2 : I forgot FSAD on my last post, same value as VSUS

Based on your data, ABL only changed by 3 clics, so your values should be :

VSUS = 131
FSAD = 131
VOF = original -3
RSTP = original (untweaked) +3
ABL in the mode you are using (put a mask on) = original -3

The PRH PGH part is not needed to perform quick checks in service menu patterns, these are only about white balance. Don't forget to put a mask and switch to the right frequency before adjusting them.

Your panel seem seem quite young due to the low delta on ABL, but changes on red are huge, and this I don't understand, but I assume you didn't change your original values.

With these settings you should have all screen wipe masks clean of misfires, no black rain.

Last edited by lnarbi; 06-11-2015 at 11:56 AM.
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post #1843 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
You need to write a few things to not be lost with all the values.

PRH before reset (under QPW section), total PRH before reset.
Your PRH after reset will remain at default, and need to be changed to the new calculated value.

So based on your data...
Total PRH after reset is 521 so your PRH setting under QPW should be 479, from factory.

You can use the before and after total PRH value too to calculate the delta, in your case 640-521 = 119, so your value of 479 must be lowered by 119, this gives 360 as a value for PRH (so you type PRH360), then type QSI again, your new total PRH value should be 640 as before.

Yes this is specific to each mode, and must be done on 60, 72, 75V1, 75V2 and 50Hz, but for a quick test if you only watch 24Hz content, the 72Hz one will be enough to check the results.

Note : your delta is really huge on red, @14k hours I only have about half of it.
Note2 : I forgot FSAD on my last post, same value as VSUS

Based on your data, ABL only changed by 3 clics, so your values should be :

VSUS = 131
FSAD = 131
VOF = original -3
RSTP = original (untweaked) +3
ABL in the mode you are using (put a mask on) = original -3

The PRH PGH part is not needed to perform quick checks in service menu patterns, these are only about white balance. Don't forget to put a mask and switch to the right frequency before adjusting them.

Your panel seem seem quite young due to the low delta on ABL, but changes on red are huge, and this I don't understand, but I assume you didn't change your original values.

With these settings you should have all screen wipe masks clean of misfires, no black rain.
The white balance and abl stuff makes total sense. However, I'm still skeptical about the VOL SUS, SAD, RSTP and VOF logic because VOL SUS, SAD or RSTP (individually) need to be raised about 50 ticks to clear misfires on all patterns. Forgot to mention these captures are from my 141fd. Raising RSTP and/or SAD by only 3 clicks each will not get me close to my stock black level either (it will be much lower with artifacts galore).

I know that raising VOL SUS causes grayscale to lose red and gain blue so perhaps raising VOL SUS to its correct value gets the grayscale back to kosher without having to mess with the grayscale values for each picture mode.

I have a lot of testing to do, just can't find the time. What helps is that the three models that I own cover the entire Kuro spectrum - 141fd covers all 60 inch models, 500m covers all 50 inch 9.5 gen and 5020 covers all 50 inch 9th gen.
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post #1844 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 12:51 PM
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Well I haven't tested anything I told you on a 60", this works on the 50 ones, on the 60s idk.
On the misfire part, I think it's more about a set of settings adjusted together that clears the patterns.
On my LX, this methodology gives me the same stock black levels of 0.001fL that hdtvtest measured on the same model.
We can almost safely admit that LX5090H = 111FD, with some slight variances.
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post #1845 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 08:02 PM
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here we go by the book and numbers.
impressive!
you two can almost be taken for some Pioneer Engineers with your exact calculated values

i just wanted to point out that i see that you suggest an ABL value of Exact -3
i use an ABL value of +82!

is that a proper value to fit in the Kuros done by the book club ?
no?
just what i thought lol

i may check in here in the weekend with some popcorn while i enjoy this 0 black KRP-500A with an ABL dimming that has passed the F8500 plasmas.
Keep it up with your tiny exact adjustments.
it will be interseting to follow how it develops

Last edited by all clear; 06-11-2015 at 08:08 PM.
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post #1846 of 1859 Old 06-11-2015, 11:01 PM
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Like I said, some people are not worth it, some are just too retarded to understand anything
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post #1847 of 1859 Old 06-12-2015, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
here we go by the book and numbers.
impressive!
you two can almost be taken for some Pioneer Engineers with your exact calculated values

i just wanted to point out that i see that you suggest an ABL value of Exact -3
i use an ABL value of +82!

is that a proper value to fit in the Kuros done by the book club ?
no?
just what i thought lol

i may check in here in the weekend with some popcorn while i enjoy this 0 black KRP-500A with an ABL dimming that has passed the F8500 plasmas.
Keep it up with your tiny exact adjustments.
it will be interseting to follow how it develops
Sigh...

What you fail to understand is that the aging algorithms in the Kuros were not programmed individually per display. Therefore, its safe and logical to assume that some sort of standardized recovery workflow would be the best approach to recover a reset display back to stock rather than the throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks approach you follow. In fact, the former is the approach used to troubleshoot computers, routers, switches and any electronic you can think if. There's a logical and standard troubleshooting process/checklist to troubleshoot almost anything you can think of. To think that this doesnt apply to Kuros is flat out ignorant.

Now, the post reset issues and resulting offsets to correct these issues may not be the same, but the methodology and adjustment trend to recover these things should be standard per model line.
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post #1848 of 1859 Old 06-13-2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Well I haven't tested anything I told you on a 60", this works on the 50 ones, on the 60s idk.
On the misfire part, I think it's more about a set of settings adjusted together that clears the patterns.
On my LX, this methodology gives me the same stock black levels of 0.001fL that hdtvtest measured on the same model.
We can almost safely admit that LX5090H = 111FD, with some slight variances.
In safe resetting my 141fd last night for testing, I'm pretty sure I have the voltage adjustment portion squared away (used different method than the one you described). Took a lot of testing and pre/post reset measurements with Calman. The next obstacle is the calibration portion. I'd like to compare the results of calibrating it without adjusting the PRH and PGH offsets in the service menu and simply adjusting those offsets to see if my pre reset calibration is retained.

How are you changing the drive modes to capture the settings for each mode using Kuro Kapture and how are you changing the drive modes post reset to set the offsets? I'd like to work with all the different drive modes.
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post #1849 of 1859 Old 06-13-2015, 10:47 AM
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It's quite simple in fact.

Use Hyperterminal to open service menu and put a mask, then switch to first mode VFQS0x, hang up the phone in hyperterminal, then launch kurokapture, rename your file. Pick up the phone in hyperterminal, switch to next mode, hang up, kurokapture, and so on.

Quote:
VFQS02 Setting the frequency in Mask mode to VD-50 Hz
VFQS03 Setting the frequency in Mask mode to VD-60 Hz
VFQS05 Setting the frequency in Mask mode to VD-72 Hz
VFQS06 Setting the frequency in Mask mode to VD-75 Hz-1
VFQS07 Setting the frequency in Mask mode to VD-75 Hz-2
Note : S06 and S07 are related, either you touch both, or none, otherwise you will end up with pretty weird things.
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post #1850 of 1859 Old 06-13-2015, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
It's quite simple in fact.

Use Hyperterminal to open service menu and put a mask, then switch to first mode VFQS0x, hang up the phone in hyperterminal, then launch kurokapture, rename your file. Pick up the phone in hyperterminal, switch to next mode, hang up, kurokapture, and so on.



Note : S06 and S07 are related, either you touch both, or none, otherwise you will end up with pretty weird things.
Ok, but how do you change the PRH and PRG settings for each mode after reset? I know the commands, I just dont know how to change the drive mode before I issue the commands.
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post #1851 of 1859 Old 06-13-2015, 11:59 AM
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Like I said, while displaying the mask choose your mode with vfq, then issue the commands.
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post #1852 of 1859 Old 06-13-2015, 12:12 PM
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Like I said, while displaying the mask choose your mode with vfq, then issue the commands.
Gotcha. Will try tonight.
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post #1853 of 1859 Old 06-18-2015, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Ah yeah, I forgot this was an alternative command to service menu off for some models, I thought you talked about a command to disable torch mode in service menu while remaining in it.
Found the command to remove the service menu overlay while remaining in service menu mode for real time adjustment while patterns are up:

I tried this on my 5020:
Put pattern up
Issue "osds00" (removes service menu overlay, and all on screen dialogs)
Issue desired voltage adjustment commands
Issuing "osds01" brings back the service menu overlay
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post #1854 of 1859 Old 06-20-2015, 05:59 AM
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Okay, here we go.

I just bought myself a LX6090 (think it equals to us model 6020).
Wow the 60 inch models are really heavy

Just checked the service menu and the panel has 16.000 hours on it.
As a result the red tint is quite bad.

What do you suggest, a reset or just tweaking the voltages?
Anyone who have reset this kind of TV?

RSTP = 8.

/Andreas
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post #1855 of 1859 Old 06-20-2015, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post
Okay, here we go.

I just bought myself a LX6090 (think it equals to us model 6020).
Wow the 60 inch models are really heavy

Just checked the service menu and the panel has 16.000 hours on it.
As a result the red tint is quite bad.

What do you suggest, a reset or just tweaking the voltages?
Anyone who have reset this kind of TV?

RSTP = 8.

/Andreas
just tweak RSTP to 001 or 002 and SAD down 14 (down to 129) clicks and recheck , reset on 60" Pioneer is not a good ideal
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post #1856 of 1859 Old 06-20-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post
just tweak RSTP to 001 or 002 and SAD down 14 (down to 129) clicks and recheck , reset on 60" Pioneer is not a good ideal
Thank you for your advice. I will try it out tonight.
makaveddie81 - have you experience of reseting 60" kuros?
If I am out of luck with just tweaking I will try reseting. But I will be backing up EEPROM, just in case.

As my panel has 16000 hours I assume that I will need to raise SUS, SAD and RSTP post reset to get rid of artifacts.

What do you think?
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post #1857 of 1859 Old 06-20-2015, 02:31 PM
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why ask about doing a reset or not when you have the simple "evaluate the reset" method ?
just go for it!

misfire heaven with the reset?
Roll back and only tweak the voltages.
then you know that a reset isnt something for this 6090.

kör hårt!
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Main Display - Reseted Pioneer KRP-500M (UK Build)
Second Display - Pioneer KRP-500A
Previous Display - LG 880W OLED
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post #1858 of 1859 Old 06-21-2015, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrno View Post
Thank you for your advice. I will try it out tonight.
makaveddie81 - have you experience of reseting 60" kuros?
If I am out of luck with just tweaking I will try reseting. But I will be backing up EEPROM, just in case.

As my panel has 16000 hours I assume that I will need to raise SUS, SAD and RSTP post reset to get rid of artifacts.

What do you think?
I have tested reset with using the EEPROM backup on my 141fd, 500m and two 5020s (just bought another yesterday) and was able to recover all of them before reverting back to original EEPROM except for one of the 5020s since the reset got rid of the red tint.

PM me and I will be glad to help as long as you use the EEPROM backup method.
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Latest ControlCAL file will not download. Norton is alerting as a bad file and removing. What is the issue?
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