Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 64 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1891 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
These are great informations, I tried this on a reset LX6090H and it's very promising.
So far I could only adjust VS and VA, because I can't get any reading on the check points of the Y board, seems like there is varnish over it sadly. Did you have the same problem ?
No, I didn't have the same issue...my measurement points were exposed.

Ryan
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post #1892 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
Thanks Ryan, this is fascinating and a real detailed explanation of what you have done. I unfortunately do not have the skills or qualifications to perform this physical adjusting of Voltage pots.

The VH Voltage sounds interesting! These Kuros really are very special TV's, Pioneer certainly knew their stuff!

0.0002ftL on a 60 incher, that is very impressive Ryan!

Like I said I'm really pleased with the result of just raising VOL_SUS, the Panel is more responsive and just seems to now have the juice required to perform as it should.
I had to call in a favor...I didn't know how low I had dropped my mll and it was driving me crazy! I currently own a i1Pro2 and a Display3...which neither can read this low. This was taken with a Klein K10 multiple times. It's not completely absent of light...However your eyes need a looong minute to adjust in a completely darken room. If there is the slightest bit of content...it renders pure black to my eye! The most exciting part is I'm still able to render 1%-5% above black...no crush! I know this was achievable on the 50" displays and a few PRO-151's but not a 60" KRP that I know of.

Ryan
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post #1893 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
No, I didn't have the same issue...my measurement points were exposed.

Ryan
All right, I'll have to find some stuff to remove that varnish and expose the points.
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post #1894 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Hi buttonsw,

You are not completely off with the "just raising VOL_SUS" logic. Let me first start of by saying, It has been a while since I've been on any of the Pioneer red tint, voltage tweak, and/or reset guide threads. I have tested many of theories and a multitude of configurations over the past 3 or 4 years. I have been running my current configuration now for the past 8 months with no issues, artifacts, sparkles, magenta lag, bright clean whites, and clean almost absent of light blacks(roughly .0002 ftl on a KRP-600M!). Now I have to put this disclaimer in due to the nature of plasma panels and there extremely lethal high voltages within. PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS METHOD UNLESS YOU ARE QUALIFIED!! This method only works if you plan on reseting your panel or currently have a reset panel. You can follow the rest guide to clear your values...however from that point moving forward almost all the rest of the adjustment are physically made within the display itself. 1) Raise the VSUS pot to 215v, 2) Raise the VADR pot to 83v, and Raise the VH pot to 150v. Now for the remaining voltages, adjust them to factory spec based on your model and/or your service manual (VOF, VRP, VX1, VX2, V1F, V3F, & V4F).

My ending values ended up being:

VSU..........128 (Factory)
VOF..........068 (Factory)
VRP..........018 (Factory)
VX1..........105 (Factory)
VX2..........047 (Factory)
V1F..........086 (Factory)
V3F..........116 (+20 from factory)
V4F..........163 (+20 from factory)
VYF..........128 (Factory)

ABL..........178 (+60 from factory)

With this configuration I successfully cleared the following masks with no issues: MKCS01, MKCS10, MKCS15, MKRS01, MKRS02, MKRS19, MKRS23, MKSS29, MKSS30, MKSS43, and MKSS44. I waited until I hit about 200hrs of watching regular content before I re-calibrated (ISF Auto, Day, and Night). Like I mentioned earlier, I have been utilizing this configuration for about 8 months now with no issues. Please feel free to reach out if anyone has any questions and/or comments regarding the above post.

Ryan
I've been using my 141fd (and all my other Kuros for that matter) as a guinea pig testing and endless amount of resets using ShockFett's safe reset method and something told me that the service menu adjustments were not enough to correct a reset on a 60 inch set.

The 50 inch sets are quite easy to recover. First, VOL SUS needs to be increased by the delta between the start value of ABL (found using the qpw command) and the current ABL value (found by using the QSI command) (this discovery was made by Inarbi). Then, YKONFSA D needs to be raised until there are no magenta sparkles in combi mask 6. Last, RSTP raised until black lag goes away (haven't had to do these on any of my 50's as the YKNOFSA D raise eliminates black lag). Recalibration is needed, unless you capture your pre-reset service menu grayscale settings as described by Inarbi.

The 60 inch sets are a totally different animal. In the 50 inch models, combi mask 6 and 7 will be littered with magenta sparkles after reset. In the 60 inch models, those patterns are completely clean (though lowering YKNOFSA D will cause sparkles on these patterns) while combi mask 9 and combi mask 10 will be the ones littered with magenta sparkles (more like a lag). The magenta sparkles in the 50 inch models and 60 inch models are quite different. The magenta sparkles in the 50 inch models appear in white, while the magenta sparkles in the 60 inch models are like a lag when going from black to white. There are only two ways to remove magenta sparkles in the 50 inch models post reset - raising VOL SUS or raising YKNOFSA D. Since the ABL value goes down over time, that means that VOL SUS goes up over time to compensate. That's why, on the 50 inch sets, I raise VOL SUS by the delta between start ABL and current ABL and then raise YKNOFSA D until the two patterns are clean.

On the 60 inch sets, the only way to remove the magenta lag is to either raise RSTP or YKNOFSA D. The problem is that raising YKNOFSA D (or VOL SUS) causes white sparkles near black. I've tried endless combinations and came to the realization that the white sparkles signify that the panel is being over-volted. The reason for this is that the only way I could remove the white sparkles after the YKNOFSA D increase was to either lower VOL SUS (which causes a dramatic lowering of peak light output) or lower S1 (though this caused green lag when going from white to black). Now, when I set YKNOFSA D back to default and raise RSTP, the magenta lag goes away and there are very few white sparkles near black (tolerable) but my panel is back to square 1 having some minor red tint. It's a no win situation if you have a 60 inch set with red tint, at least with my testing.

For those with 50 inch models wanting to set the pots to match the levels provided by mascior, keep in mind that the 50 inch and 60 inch models have different post reset behavior and these may not work on your set, as mascior's numbers came from a KRP-600M.

Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M
Pioneer Kuro PRO-141FD
Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020 x 2

Last edited by makaveddie81; 11-16-2015 at 04:06 PM.
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post #1895 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:23 PM
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Hi Eddie, yes the 60" models are very different with Voltage adjustments and misfires post reset.

When I raise FSAD on my 500A it makes the blacks a lot worse than stock which is why I have left every Voltage at default apart from VOL_SUS @ 190. It seems to have done the trick with all MASKS clean and black level @ 0.0005ftL

@ Inarbi
How did you find out about the delta between the start value of ABL and the current value? Is this an accurate way to raise VOL_SUS by a very specific amount?

Pioneer KRP-500A | Sony STR-DH810 Receiver | Tannoy HTS101 Speakers
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post #1896 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:26 PM
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In an effort to increase the peak light output of my 141fd (it caps out at around 38ftl using AVSHD709 windows), I discovered that raising VOL SUS accomplishes this feat (non reset) and causes no artifacts/sparkles near white (though the red tint does get a bit worse). However, during my reset testing, any increase in VOL SUS causes sparkles near white, meaning that the panel is being over volted.

If increasing VOL SUS pre reset causes no artifacts, but doing the same after reset does, then there is something that goes terribly out of whack after a reset.

Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M
Pioneer Kuro PRO-141FD
Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020 x 2
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post #1897 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
Hi Eddie, yes the 60" models are very different with Voltage adjustments and misfires post reset.

When I raise FSAD on my 500A it makes the blacks a lot worse than stock which is why I have left every Voltage at default apart from VOL_SUS @ 190. It seems to have done the trick with all MASKS clean and black level @ 0.0005ftL

@ Inarbi
How did you find out about the delta between the start value of ABL and the current value? Is this an accurate way to raise VOL_SUS by a very specific amount?
Remember, the raise in VOL SUS using the ABL delta removes most of the magenta on the patterns, so you won't need to raise FSAD too much (plus raising it until the patterns are clean will remove all black lag). FSAD being too low has a negative effect on low end gamma as well.
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Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M
Pioneer Kuro PRO-141FD
Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020 x 2
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post #1898 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
For those with 50 inch models wanting to set the pots to match the levels provided by mascior, keep in mind that the 50 inch and 60 inch models have different post reset behavior and these may not work on your set, as mascior's numbers came from a KRP-600M.
I could not agree with you more! There isn't any one fix for all models or even with in the same size for that matter. I feel based on my experience that this was the best configuration for my specific panel. For all we know, this may not even work on another KRP-600M based on hours of use and/or pulse counts. I will say that based on the voltage measurements I collected from the PRO-151...My KRP responded well to how the algorithm worked between both panels...with minor tweaking of course.
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post #1899 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
I could not agree with you more! There isn't any one fix for all models or even with in the same size for that matter. I feel based on my experience that this was the best configuration for my specific panel. For all we know, this may not even work on another KRP-600M based on hours of use and/or pulse counts. I will say that based on the voltage measurements I collected from the PRO-151...My KRP responded well to how the algorithm worked between both panels...with minor tweaking of course.
Were you able to get rid of the white sparkles near black? I can't for the life of me get rid of them on my 141fd and these are caused by any increase to VOL SUS or FSAD. The only way to "fix" reset on my 141fd is to raise RSTP as it causes almost no white sparkles near black but as you know, this brings back the red tint.

Pioneer Kuro KRP-500M
Pioneer Kuro PRO-141FD
Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020 x 2
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post #1900 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Were you able to get rid of the white sparkles near black? I can't for the life of me get rid of them on my 141fd and these are caused by any increase to VOL SUS or FSAD. The only way to "fix" reset on my 141fd is to raise RSTP as it causes almost no white sparkles near black but as you know, this brings back the red tint.
Yes. The white sparkles or as I like to call them the Antichrist. A combination of raising the VADR and VH voltages along with minor tweaking to VF1. I found raising VADR allowed me to lower all VYF associated voltages without side effects. Raising VH allowed me to keep VRP at stock after a reset without red tint creeping back in. My VSUS is still at a stock value of 128. However, I adjusted the Vs pot to read 215v which roughly translate to a value of 158 without pot tweaking. I do agree raising the ABL adjustment is a must after a reset.

Ryan
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post #1901 of 2270 Old 11-16-2015, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
I have attached images of the power supply, X board, and Y board. I have also identified and labeled the adjustment/test points for each voltage.

Ryan
Wait a minute, theres an adjustment pot for RSTP? If so, then there's no need to reset to cure red tint since additional headroom RSTP can be obtained by simply adjusting the pot.

In looking at the picture the pot looks different than the other pots. How do you adjust it?
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Yes. The white sparkles or as I like to call them the Antichrist. A combination of raising the VADR and VH voltages along with minor tweaking to VF1. I found raising VADR allowed me to lower all VYF associated voltages without side effects. Raising VH allowed me to keep VRP at stock after a reset without red tint creeping back in. My VSUS is still at a stock value of 128. However, I adjusted the Vs pot to read 215v which roughly translate to a value of 158 without pot tweaking. I do agree raising the ABL adjustment is a must after a reset.

Ryan
I could test the VYF board and do the suggested adjustments.
My RSTP cannot be left alone, otherwise the MLL is not uniform, like completely dark in the middle and raising to a slight red tint on the edges. So I raised it to have a uniform MLL, whith is better than before, almost as black as my VT, and red tint is not that visible in the dark.
Still room to tweak further 0 think.

The last things that bothers me most is the "dirt" lag at power on, it's purple and vanishes slowly. If I raise vol sus over 215V (in SM) it clears faster but some remains on the upper right side, until mll from power on drops.
I have magenta tinting on the 2 (or 3) first greyscale steps (not slight, they are really pink) and it seems more pronounced on the edges of the screen, brightness does Nothing, it simply moves the steps higher or lower on the scale. I found no adjustment so far that had an impact on that.

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About the red, green and ABL auto adjustment algorithms, they seem to stop around the 10k hours mark, with the panel then left on its own for the blue drop compensation. Found that because my ex 50 and several other ones with different hours (all over 10k) had all the same offsets on the red and green colors. ABL was a little different, but around the same value.
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
The last things that bothers me most is the "dirt" lag at power on, it's purple and vanishes slowly. If I raise vol sus over 215V (in SM) it clears faster but some remains on the upper right side, until mll from power on drops.
About that, before reset, on power up the illumination was purplish, uniform, now that purple goes away progressively on startup (but not completely) to become gray (little greenish).
Maybe I' driving it a bit too hard, and I should leave that purplish look on startup preventing him to transition slowly to gray, IDK.
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@ Inarbi
How did you find out about the delta between the start value of ABL and the current value? Is this an accurate way to raise VOL_SUS by a very specific amount?
Issue QS3 and QSI commands with content on the screen, you will have an ABL adjustment value, and a totall value of ABL. I used that delta to raise VSUS and VYF, and lower the corresponding ABL adjustment value by the same amount after reset.

Can't know for sure if it's accurate, but this kinda made sense to me, and proved to work very well on the 50s, though not on the 60s.
Same goes for the PRH and PGH values to maintain your calibration after reset, by offsetting the adjustment value by the correct amount.
But fact is this automatic correction stops at some time (after 7000 hours, which is not far from the max offset, and before 14k hours which was my ex 50). Between mine @14k hours and another identical one at 17k hours, the delta between these values was the same.
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Wait a minute, theres an adjustment pot for RSTP? If so, then there's no need to reset to cure red tint since additional headroom RSTP can be obtained by simply adjusting the pot.

In looking at the picture the pot looks different than the other pots. How do you adjust it?
No it's the same as the others. Unfortunately the picture is angled and you can't see the pot adjustment...it's placed behind the heatsink.

Ryan
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post #1907 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
No it's the same as the others. Unfortunately the picture is angled and you can't see the pot adjustment...it's placed behind the heatsink.

Ryan
Is the pot labeled? If so, what is it labeled as?
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Is the pot labeled? If so, what is it labeled as?
Yes, the trim pot is labeled. However, I'm currently at work and cannot recall the label name...I do however have a spare Y board at home, I'll take a snapshot of the pot later on this evening and post it.

Ryan
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Red circled.
A bit dusty I know
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Red circled.
A bit dusty I know
That's the one! Thanks lnarbi.
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Red circled.
A bit dusty I know
I'd like to try adjusting this pot on my non reset 50 inchers. Can you see what the pot is labeled as?
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No, but there's only one there, you can't pick wrong.
Measure your RSTP on the two points labeled PRST on the pic, so you'll know what value it had before adjustment.
BTW I found it on older Pioneer service notes, measurements must be done while outputting a full white field.

Last edited by lnarbi; 11-17-2015 at 08:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
No, but there's only one there, you can't pick wrong.
Measure your RSTP on the two points labeled PRST on the pic, so you'll know what value it had before adjustment.
BTW I found it on older Pioneer service notes, measurements must be done while outputting a full white field.
The Y board on the 50 inch sets has a different layout, so knowing what its labeled as will help me identify it on my 50 inch set.

Care to share thise Pioneer service notes?
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post #1914 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 08:38 AM
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I just removed it because it was the only thing relevant there, just some data on the older Pioneer PDP previous to 8G (so non kuro ones).
I downloaded any SM I could on elektrotanya (which has a nice database), but nothing relevant besides the usual service manuals.
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All right I tweaked further.
So far I have enough headroom with the vsus pot, but got problems with vadr, at max @89V, can't turn further, and VH, not at max but if I push more than 156 buzz goes way down and TV goes into protection.
So I'm at max the TV can handle on VADR and VH.

Well, red tint is almost inexistant, being more conservative on VSUS seems to have calmed down the power up "dirt", and I have a uniform screen on power up. So far so good.

Now what's left ? The purple tinting from around 5% grey down.
I have found what removes it, I have to raise V1F from original 086 to 140, and voila my shades of gray are back, but now I have a whole lot of green sparckles.
So I lower VSUS, that seems to calm the sparkles, but if I go too low, other artifacts are back.

I think I'm out of options there, and I may have to keep the very low end magenta tinted (interestingly, MLL is not tinted lol). Black bars are black, black level the same as my VT, roughly, the picture itself when watching content is very good, the low end magenta problem is very hardly seen on normal content, only on very specific situations, rarely.
What's nice, is the picture looks as sharp as the VT, which was never the case before (sharpness off on both of course).

Mascior any advice ?

Note : the low end magenta tinting seems to be on the 9Gs the counterpart of the black rain on the 9.5Gs.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
All right I tweaked further.
So far I have enough headroom with the vsus pot, but got problems with vadr, at max @89V, can't turn further, and VH, not at max but if I push more than 156 buzz goes way down and TV goes into protection.
So I'm at max the TV can handle on VADR and VH.

Well, red tint is almost inexistant, being more conservative on VSUS seems to have calmed down the power up "dirt", and I have a uniform screen on power up. So far so good.

Now what's left ? The purple tinting from around 5% grey down.
I have found what removes it, I have to raise V1F from original 086 to 140, and voila my shades of gray are back, but now I have a whole lot of green sparckles.
So I lower VSUS, that seems to calm the sparkles, but if I go too low, other artifacts are back.

I think I'm out of options there, and I may have to keep the very low end magenta tinted (interestingly, MLL is not tinted lol). Black bars are black, black level the same as my VT, roughly, the picture itself when watching content is very good, the low end magenta problem is very hardly seen on normal content, only on very specific situations, rarely.
What's nice, is the picture looks as sharp as the VT, which was never the case before (sharpness off on both of course).

Mascior any advice ?
This is a little outside of the box but try this...it may work for you. Drop V1F to 001(This will most defiantly get rid of your sparkles)...now this should crush the first four steps out of black. Now you will have head room in your brightness adjustment to lift past the standard +1/+2 before the mll is effected. Raise you brightness until your mll raises(should be around +5), step it back one, and check your black clipping again to see if you eliminated your black crush. At this point you should still have your deep blacks, shadow detail, and no white/green sparkles in black. I have found over the years that you can not adjust "VYF" on the 60" models because of V1F voltage alone...V1F, V3F, and V4F must be adjusted independently. Let me know if this works for you.

Ryan
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post #1917 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 11:21 AM
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Won't work, if V1F is at 1, all at does is to move the magenta tinting further up the scale, no matter what I do, except raising V1F, the x first steps of the grayscale are magenta.
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post #1918 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 11:23 AM
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Won't work, if V1F is at 1, all at does is to move the magenta tinting further up the scale, no matter what I do, except raising V1F, the x first steps of the grayscale are magenta.
How many hours do you have on your current reset?
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post #1919 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 11:25 AM
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The panel had 33k hours before reset (yes, that much). Now I'm around 10hrs after reset. You think I should age it a bit ?
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post #1920 of 2270 Old 11-17-2015, 11:40 AM
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The panel had 33k hours before reset (yes, that much). Now I'm around 10hrs after reset. You think I should age it a bit ?
I have never heard/seen on any panel bring V1F down to 001 causing more magenta up the black clipping chart. It's normal behavior is completely clipping 17, 18, 19, and 20 with 21 being the first flashing step. Try putting all of your service menu values back to factory, only raise Vs, Va, and VH...then lower V1F to 001 and then raise V3F/V4F up to get rid of the magenta lag. See if this process works.
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