Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1981 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
makaveddie81,

Sorry to hear about your Y board brother...I made the same mistake a few years back and had to swap my Y board as well. I ended up purchasing some all plastic tweaker screwdrivers from my local electronics store.

Ryan
How difficult is it to replace the Y board? The metal bar that goes iver the board looks like its going to be a hindrance. Did you follow the adjustment steps in the service manual or did you simply just slap it in?

Did your Y board also spark and the Tv shut off? I just need some reassuring words because I hope it's just the Y board that got messed up and nothing else.

Kuro Kapture reports Y assembly dc and scan as the last entries in the shut down log. I hope its not the scan board because there's four of them.
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post #1982 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
VH is at maximum, if I go up further it drops and the TV shuts down. Here's my problem
The voltage are specified in service manual, not explicitly, but on several troubleshooting steps you will find the default voltage settings.
I don't think VH is FSAD, all FSxD voltage have already a pot and measurement point on the Y board, I think it's a different setting that has no counterpart in service menu and can only be interacted with physically.
What happens if you raise RSTP in the service menu? I was able to get rid of the black spot that developed after I lowered VH by raising RSTP in the service menu.
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post #1983 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:31 AM
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It raises the middle to progressively match the edges black level, while progressively bringing red tint back to the edges (slight, but a bit).
I think it's all about compromise, finding the sweet spot between dark spot non being intrusive, and overall black level.
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post #1984 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
It's mentioned on page 52 of the PRO-141/KRP-600M service manual under diagnostics. I have attached some screenshots for the VH, VADR, and VSUS.

Ryan
Thanks! Where dis you get the voltage for RSTP? I'm doing the calculation on page 62 using the DAC output voltage and the actual value and somethings not right. I' like to know where the default voltage level for rstp is documented in the service manual.
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post #1985 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
How difficult is it to replace the Y board? The metal bar that goes iver the board looks like its going to be a hindrance. Did you follow the adjustment steps in the service manual or did you simply just slap it in?

Did your Y board also spark and the Tv shut off? I just need some reassuring words because I hope it's just the Y board that got messed up and nothing else.

Kuro Kapture reports Y assembly dc and scan as the last entries in the shut down log. I hope its not the scan board because there's four of them.
You should be fine (mine sparked as well and powered down...my stomach dropped). Replacing the Y board is fairly simple. Just follow the obvious...power off the display, unplug, and wait at least 30 minutes for all the capacitors to discharge. I would recommend a static strap and grounded...at least for the installation of your new board. I did follow the manual when installing the new board and adjustments. Out of curiosity...what grade board did you purchase? I went from a "C" stock to an "A" stock...typically C/B stock go into no-elites and "A" was saved for Elites.

Ryan
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post #1986 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
You should be fine (mine sparked as well and powered down...my stomach dropped). Replacing the Y board is fairly simple. Just follow the obvious...power off the display, unplug, and wait at least 30 minutes for all the capacitors to discharge. I would recommend a static strap and grounded...at least for the installation of your new board. I did follow the manual when installing the new board and adjustments. Out of curiosity...what grade board did you purchase? I went from a "C" stock to an "A" stock...typically C/B stock go into no-elites and "A" was saved for Elites.

Ryan
I wasn't aware that there were different grades for these things. I just bought the only one that came out on eBay. Where can I locate the grade?

I have no idea where to start to make the timing adjustments noted in the servicr manual. Care to explain? Lol.
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post #1987 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:38 AM
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I see it now. I downgraded to a C. Darn it.
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post #1988 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I wasn't aware that there were different grades for these things. I just bought the only one that came out on eBay. Where can I locate the grade?

I have no idea where to start to make the timing adjustments noted in the servicr manual. Care to explain? Lol.
Here is an example of a Y board "C" stock. Timing adjustment are a completely different beast...an oscilloscope is needed. You can purchase a USB model online and it runs of your laptop/PC with software. However, timing should be close on a stock board...

Ryan
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post #1989 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Here is an example of a Y board "C" stock. Timing adjustment are a completely different beast...an oscilloscope is needed. You can purchase a USB model online and it runs of your laptop/PC with software. However, timing should be close on a stock board...

Ryan
Yeah, that's way over my head. I'm just gonna slap it in and hope for the best.

I find it weird how the service manual doesn't mention any adjustment to the y board voltage pots during replacement. Were all boards set identical then?

I sure wish I would have bought that 600m and used it for testing lol.
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post #1990 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Yeah, that's way over my head. I'm just gonna slap it in and hope for the best.

I find it weird how the service manual doesn't mention any adjustment to the y board voltage pots during replacement. Were all boards set identical then?

I sure wish I would have bought that 600m and used it for testing lol.
I personally believe that all the board pots were adjusted to "center" across the entire range and adjustments were made via service menu at the factory per specific model. Just a theory though.
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post #1991 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:12 AM
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A stock on my LX6090H. These must be considered elite.
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post #1992 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:14 AM
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I'm still amazed that these display can produce color accuracy like this without the need of an external LUT!

Ryan
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post #1993 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
A stock on my LX6090H. These must be considered elite.
I'm sure "A" stock parts made it into non Elite displays...just mandatory for Elite displays.

Ryan
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post #1994 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:41 AM
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I'm still amazed that these display can produce color accuracy like this without the need of an external LUT!

Ryan
Wow. What is your calibration strategy with the Kuros? Do you mess with the CMS at all?
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post #1995 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Wow. What is your calibration strategy with the Kuros? Do you mess with the CMS at all?
Nothing special that hasn't been discussed already...but yes, I do configure RGB x/y coordinates in the service menu along with a proper grayscale/gamma calibration. I typically shoot for a power law gamma of 2.28...looks great on these displays. Look at the attached color checker.

Ryan
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post #1996 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 09:40 AM
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Great looking charts Ryan, I also adjust the X,Y coordinates in the PANEL FUNCTION menu to get the points as close as possible.

I calibrate at 75%/75% as before I was calibrating the colours at 100% but when performing saturation sweeps the DE errors were much higher even though 100% was spot on.

Do you calibrate the ISF modes to get to a gamma of 2.28 as I leave all the gamma options at default in my ISF Night and have an average gamma of 2.2. It looks great like this

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Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
Great looking charts Ryan, I also adjust the X,Y coordinates in the PANEL FUNCTION menu to get the points as close as possible.

I calibrate at 75%/75% as before I was calibrating the colours at 100% but when performing saturation sweeps the DE errors were much higher even though 100% was spot on.

Do you calibrate the ISF modes to get to a gamma of 2.28 as I leave all the gamma options at default in my ISF Night and have an average gamma of 2.2. It looks great like this
Hi buttonsw,

Thanks. Yes, I calibrate within the ISF modes...my gamma is typically a balancing act between properly setting brightness and a target contrast. My physical gamma adjustments...straight "0" across the board for day averaging 2.22 and "-1" across the board for night averaging 2.28.

Ryan
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post #1998 of 2314 Old 11-22-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Nothing special that hasn't been discussed already...but yes, I do configure RGB x/y coordinates in the service menu along with a proper grayscale/gamma calibration. I typically shoot for a power law gamma of 2.28...looks great on these displays. Look at the attached color checker.

Ryan
I tried adjusting the rgb x and y coordinates on my 5020 and, although the values change, I didn't see any change on the CIE charts. Am I missing something?
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You should definitely see the changes on the Gamut. They do require quite large movements as for example if the x of Red is @ 310 and it needs to get to 313 you need to move the RX adjustment by about 30 clicks. On the KRP it work in reverse so you need to reduce it by 20-30 to move the value up and vise versa.

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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
What we need to figure out now is what exactly happens as the Kuro ages that causes red tint. Is it VH raising too aggressively, or is it RSTP raising too aggressively?
According to this person, it's caused by picture management algorithms
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There was never a problem with voltages, as you are now learning from member inarbi, there are more hidden commands, in fact there are 2 further menu systems that only the factory could get to and THAT'S were the red tint issue lies, screwed up picture management algorithms NOT voltages. Its not that Pioneer would not fix the problem, they couldn't because there was engineering team left to fix it when they pulled out, so they said it was in spec.
Official Owners Thread 2015 LG 55EG9600 / 65EG9600 4k

He was arguing with all clear (of course lol.....turns out he was right though) about kuro vs OLED.

That kind of makes sense to me. Not something Pioneer would want to admit to with them leaving the market.

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post #2001 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:23 PM
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According to this person, it's caused by picture management algorithms Official Owners Thread 2015 LG 55EG9600 / 65EG9600 4k

He was arguing with all clear (of course lol.....turns out he was right though) about kuro vs OLED.

That kind of makes sense to me. Not something Pioneer would want to admit to with them leaving the market.
I guess it makes sense. But it seems like the problem can be corrected or mitigated via voltage adjustments to compensate for the poor algorithms.

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post #2002 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
You should definitely see the changes on the Gamut. They do require quite large movements as for example if the x of Red is @ 310 and it needs to get to 313 you need to move the RX adjustment by about 30 clicks. On the KRP it work in reverse so you need to reduce it by 20-30 to move the value up and vise versa.
I adjusted them by more than 100 ticks after I saw no response with smaller adjustments. Perhaps the changes don't kick in due to locked down nature of the non Elites.

I've never and will never try this on my Elites because I don't want to make adjustments to the service menu rgb coordinates without a reference meter. Basing these adjustments on an i1D3 is silly.

Only reason I tried on my non Elites is because green is way off on them.

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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
It raises the middle to progressively match the edges black level, while progressively bringing red tint back to the edges (slight, but a bit).
I think it's all about compromise, finding the sweet spot between dark spot non being intrusive, and overall black level.
I agree it's all about compromise. What is concerning to me is that your VH is already at max, giving you no headroom to test increasing VH and lowering RSTP (to mitigate red tint). I don't think I saw any red tint when I raised VH, but I definitely saw it when raising RSTP significantly.

Perhaps the reset throws off VH?

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Does anyone know if adjusting the voltages via the service menu changes the readings on the Y board? For example, let's say my multimeter reads RSTP as 113 off the Y board. If I raise the RSTP setting in the service menu, will the reading on the board change?

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post #2005 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Does anyone know if adjusting the voltages via the service menu changes the readings on the Y board? For example, let's say my multimeter reads RSTP as 113 off the Y board. If I raise the RSTP setting in the service menu, will the reading on the board change?
Yes the reading changes for every step change (and quickly on rstp), and this on all the SM voltage controls.
My VH was not at max, I adjusted it myself to maximum But that's not enough if it's supposed to remove the black spot in the middle. These pots are not real ones, they act like software pots, the default value will be the same, even if you touch them when the tv is unplugged. That's probably why when the tv shuts down because vh dropped to lowest value, it will start again after being unplugged, and after measurement, VH is back to the value it had before the "failure".
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I adjusted them by more than 100 ticks after I saw no response with smaller adjustments. Perhaps the changes don't kick in due to locked down nature of the non Elites.

I've never and will never try this on my Elites because I don't want to make adjustments to the service menu rgb coordinates without a reference meter. Basing these adjustments on an i1D3 is silly.

Only reason I tried on my non Elites is because green is way off on them.
That's strange, did you see any movement even after 100 ticks?

I can see adjustments in real time on HCFR with just a few ticks so not sure why that is happening for you unless your x,y colour points are well off.

I calibrated my Colours at 75% and it looks amazing.

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post #2007 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
Yes the reading changes for every step change (and quickly on rstp), and this on all the SM voltage controls.
My VH was not at max, I adjusted it myself to maximum But that's not enough if it's supposed to remove the black spot in the middle. These pots are not real ones, they act like software pots, the default value will be the same, even if you touch them when the tv is unplugged. That's probably why when the tv shuts down because vh dropped to lowest value, it will start again after being unplugged, and after measurement, VH is back to the value it had before the "failure".
So the lowest reading I could get on RSTP was 112, and this was with RSTP set to 1 in the service menu. You are right, visually, the RSTP service menu adjustment is much more aggressive than the pot. If anything, I think the pot equates to a 5 to 10 tick service menu RSTP adjustment.

My VH was set to 138 by default. According to the service manual, the default should be 140. Well, I had a little bit of magenta on a 5% field after I set the RSTP pot to the lowest possible reading and the only way to get rid of the magenta was to increase VH. At 140, I saw no magenta and no black splotch in the middle either.

What were your default and current readings for VH and RSTP?

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post #2008 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
That's strange, did you see any movement even after 100 ticks?

I can see adjustments in real time on HCFR with just a few ticks so not sure why that is happening for you unless your x,y colour points are well off.

I calibrated my Colours at 75% and it looks amazing.
Have you or anyone else tried this on a non Elite?

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post #2009 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Have you or anyone else tried this on a non Elite?
Only tried this on my KRP500A

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post #2010 of 2314 Old 11-23-2015, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
So the lowest reading I could get on RSTP was 112, and this was with RSTP set to 1 in the service menu. You are right, visually, the RSTP service menu adjustment is much more aggressive than the pot. If anything, I think the pot equates to a 5 to 10 tick service menu RSTP adjustment.

My VH was set to 138 by default. According to the service manual, the default should be 140. Well, I had a little bit of magenta on a 5% field after I set the RSTP pot to the lowest possible reading and the only way to get rid of the magenta was to increase VH. At 140, I saw no magenta and no black splotch in the middle either.

What were your default and current readings for VH and RSTP?
I don't quite remember the default settings after reset, before I don't know, the panel wasn't open
Quite strange you can't go lower on rstp, my bottom reading with rstp at 3 in SM and pot at min is around 70V. I settled around 90.
My VH at max is 155.9V, I raised VSUS on the pot to get a bit more than 215V at 128 SM. I raised it to 130 to be around 216.5 which I believe beeing the accurate value for the panel's age.

I didn't touch the VxF pots, all I did was checking they were within spec, and they were (default after reset).

The only thing I'm really wondering, is if the voltage algorithm curve starts over after a reset, and if that way the VSUS will end up at 220V @15k hours from now. Idk if mascior measured again after a long time to see if it still moves or not.
The color and ABL adjustments are not affected by reset (I mean the algorithms themselves, if you are at max correction, even after reset, they won't start to move again).
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