Pioneer 8G 9G Kuro Reset Guide - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 2274 Old 06-13-2016, 10:06 PM
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Brightness don't need to be raised, 0 is the best setting even after a reset. There is no clipping, you gamma near black is lower, that's it (about 2.5).
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post #2252 of 2274 Old 06-14-2016, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I finally built up my nerve and experimented a little with the backup - reset - restore procedure (by loosely following makaveddie81's instructions).

I didn't adjust anything else after the reset except raising FSAD to 155 from the default 128. I had comparable amount of "colored rain" (misfires seen on white edges moving on black background) as I have with an unaltered pulse meter and FSAD set ~90 (the lowest I would ever consider as a compromise, though I use 108) but the MLL was way lower (it looked incredible) and the reddish tint was completely gone (not just "almost gone" as it is without a reset + FSDA tweak). I didn't see any drawbacks of the pulse counter reset (no misfires on white or gray fields, etc) during some quick testing.

I restored by backup for now but I will definitely run yet another test round when I will also do some measurements and some more tests because this reset seems very promising.

The only thing I see as a possible problem is the clipping of some near-black shades because I found that user menu contrast/gain controls are best to be left at their "neutral" (non-clipping, non-limiting) values to have the best possible gradation / least amount of dither noise. But, if I reset the pulse meter for good, I will have to increase Brightness until the clipping is gone and I don't know if that will have any detrimental effects (as lowering the Contrast from 40 does to the processing precision). I will have to try but that's a lengthy ride for another day.
What model Kuro do you have?

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post #2253 of 2274 Old 06-14-2016, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
What model Kuro do you have?
EU model LX5090H, supposedly the same as non-Elite 50" 9Gs, though it's little odd one (it shares the default voltages with non-Elites but shares the user GUI with the KRPs and it also has a red LED on the bezel as Elites/KRPs do).

I spent another ~15 minutes in a reset+tweak state today and realized it might not be that great after all.
I was probably misled by the differences of approaching the same problem from two different sides and ending up on two opposing edges of the same island in the middle: a rocky and a sandy, both solid compared to water, yet still different:
- when I tried to tweak the non-reset state, I insisted on stopping as soon as side effects started to show up
- when I tried to "fix" the post-reset issues, I was eager to stop as soon as it looked adequate enough (but the MLL was still really low)
Unfortunately, I have no means to tell the exact difference in either MLL or general image quality. It's not all quantifiable and it's not possible to quickly switch back and forth. Having two similar displays next to each other would probably help a lot in judging this thing. But even then, this could get very subjective both in terms of taste and due to how you pick your test materials, etc.

I am still leaning towards keeping my real pulse count with the moderately decreased FSAD. But I will probably need to re-evaluate after the next significant auto-adjustment happens.

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #2254 of 2274 Old 06-14-2016, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
EU model LX5090H, supposedly the same as non-Elite 50" 9Gs, though it's little odd one (it shares the default voltages with non-Elites but shares the user GUI with the KRPs and it also has a red LED on the bezel as Elites/KRPs do).

I spent another ~15 minutes in a reset+tweak state today and realized it might not be that great after all.
I was probably misled by the differences of approaching the same problem from two different sides and ending up on two opposing edges of the same island in the middle: a rocky and a sandy, both solid compared to water, yet still different:
- when I tried to tweak the non-reset state, I insisted on stopping as soon as side effects started to show up
- when I tried to "fix" the post-reset issues, I was eager to stop as soon as it looked adequate enough (but the MLL was still really low)
Unfortunately, I have no means to tell the exact difference in either MLL or general image quality. It's not all quantifiable and it's not possible to quickly switch back and forth. Having two similar displays next to each other would probably help a lot in judging this thing. But even then, this could get very subjective both in terms of taste and due to how you pick your test materials, etc.

I am still leaning towards keeping my real pulse count with the moderately decreased FSAD. But I will probably need to re-evaluate after the next significant auto-adjustment happens.
I've had tremendous success with the below workflow on multiple 5020's and 111fd's. The one exception was a 111fd with 22K hours and heavy red tint. I had to pick a sweet spot between some red tint and dark blotch in the middle of the screen that's only visible on an all black field after a few seconds. Granted, it still looked light years better than it did before reset.

Perform safe reset.
Set all voltages to default, RSTP at 18.
Raise FSAD until combi mask 6 is free of magenta sparkles / misfires. You must look closely and ensure that there are absolutely no magenta sparkles. Usual value is between 158 and 188, depending on panel age.
Put up combi mask 1 (all white field) and if magenta or aqua colored sparkles are visible, lower XSUSB and YSUSB simultaneously by 1 tick each until the sparkles go away. Usual end values for both are between 127 and 124.
Put up an all black field. If no red tint, you're done. If some red tint, lower RSTP gradually (this may bring forth a dark blotch in the middle of the screen). If dark blotch in middle, raise RSTP gradually (though this may bring back some red tint).

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Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
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post #2255 of 2274 Old 07-09-2016, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
This is a 60 inch model, so it's a bit more tricky than the 50 inch sets. Bezel blending blacks are not possible on an all black field on any Kuro, so you may need to temper your expectations.

If there is no red tint, I recommend you simply lower RSTP to 1 and SAD to no less than 108 (whatever value between 128 and 108 that doesn't cause magenta misfires).

If there is red tint and it doesn't go away after lowering RSTP to 1 and SAD to 108, then and only then would you consider a reset. Since you are already familiar with the safe method reset, I'll disclose the workflow I used to reset and repair my red tinted 141fd (60 inch US model).

1. Perform safe method reset and set all voltages to default (except set RSTP to 18).

2. Access factory menu and display Combi Mask 10.

3. Raise SAD in 10 tick increments until Combi Mask 10 is clear of misfires.

4. Lower S1 from 86 to 1 to remove sparkles near black. Black clipping pattern from AVSHD709 can be used to see the effect of this adjustment.

5. Put up a black field pattern. If red tint is still present, lower RSTP.

5. If red tint persists after lowering RSTP to the minimum value (1), follow the below steps.

a. Put up a white field pattern and lower VOL SUS in 10 tick decrements until misfires appear.

b. Once misfires appear, increase VOL SUS by 10 ticks until misfires disappear. This is the lowest VOL SUS that the panel can handle (typically 98).

c. Set VOL SUS back to default (128).

d. Put up a black field pattern and lower VOL SUS in 10 tick increments, making sure to not go below the value determined in step b, until red tint is either gone or acceptable.

6. Use a black clipping pattern to set brightness setting. It will end up being around +1 or +2.

7. If you lowered SUS, you will lose some peak light output (especially in ISF day mode). To counter this, you will have to raise ABL on all drive modes by the same amount you lowered SUS. I bypassed this step because I prefer dim picture anyways.

8. You will have to perform calibration if you elect to keep the reset. Or you could use my Kuro Tables program to automatically adjust the service menu grayscale settings in all drive modes and preserve your current calibration. I haven't posted this program on AVS yet.

Hi.

I have a really troublesome pdp-6020fd. Bad red tint. Rtsp to 1, sad can't be any less than 128 without lots of magenta sparkles.

Will the above work flow potentially be helpful? If so, can anyone point me in the direction of how to safe reset?

Thanks. Hope to get a few more years out of this panel.

Last edited by minazaki; 07-09-2016 at 08:33 PM.
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post #2256 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I've had tremendous success with the below workflow on multiple 5020's and 111fd's. The one exception was a 111fd with 22K hours and heavy red tint. I had to pick a sweet spot between some red tint and dark blotch in the middle of the screen that's only visible on an all black field after a few seconds. Granted, it still looked light years better than it did before reset.

Perform safe reset.
Set all voltages to default, RSTP at 18.
Raise FSAD until combi mask 6 is free of magenta sparkles / misfires. You must look closely and ensure that there are absolutely no magenta sparkles. Usual value is between 158 and 188, depending on panel age.
Put up combi mask 1 (all white field) and if magenta or aqua colored sparkles are visible, lower XSUSB and YSUSB simultaneously by 1 tick each until the sparkles go away. Usual end values for both are between 127 and 124.
Put up an all black field. If no red tint, you're done. If some red tint, lower RSTP gradually (this may bring forth a dark blotch in the middle of the screen). If dark blotch in middle, raise RSTP gradually (though this may bring back some red tint).
Hi makaveddie81

I have a question about VOL_SUS?

I have performed many resets on my 500A each trying slightly different techniques and the one that you quoted above does a good job but my FSAD needs raising to about 170 ish to clear all misfires on COMBI_MASK 6 and that has a detrimental effect on my black level.

I have found that my Kuro is still requiring a bit of juice even after this and raisng VOL_SUS really helps this with the picture and menus much snappier with no lag. What I want to know is how much can I raise it safely as I do not want to fry the boards so to speak. To clear a white field required a figure of about 162 and the temps stay below 50 degrees. The good thing about raising VOL_SUS is that it cleans up COMBI_MASK 6 a little and so FSAD is not needed to be raised nearly enough as before to clean it fully (about 148) which results in a better black level. Is it safe to raise VOL_SUS if the temps are OK or is it best to leave it and just use YSUS_B & XSUS_B?

Cheers, Steve

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post #2257 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by buttonsw View Post
Hi makaveddie81

I have a question about VOL_SUS?

I have performed many resets on my 500A each trying slightly different techniques and the one that you quoted above does a good job but my FSAD needs raising to about 170 ish to clear all misfires on COMBI_MASK 6 and that has a detrimental effect on my black level.

I have found that my Kuro is still requiring a bit of juice even after this and raisng VOL_SUS really helps this with the picture and menus much snappier with no lag. What I want to know is how much can I raise it safely as I do not want to fry the boards so to speak. To clear a white field required a figure of about 162 and the temps stay below 50 degrees. The good thing about raising VOL_SUS is that it cleans up COMBI_MASK 6 a little and so FSAD is not needed to be raised nearly enough as before to clean it fully (about 148) which results in a better black level. Is it safe to raise VOL_SUS if the temps are OK or is it best to leave it and just use YSUS_B & XSUS_B?

Cheers, Steve
In the past, I used to juggle between raising VOL SUS and lowering XSUSB/YSUSB but after performing pre and post reset voltage measurements on multiple Kuros from the entire model spectrum, I lean towards the latter, as VOL SUS readings remained unchanged in these trials (meaning VOL SUS does not change as the panel ages).

I wouldn't call effects of raising FSAD until combi mask 6 is clear as detrimental. What this step does is it sets the "safe floor" for your black level, as anything lower than this will yield black rain/lag, IR and blotchy black field. Remember, these things were NOT designed to produce OLED blacks. Forcing these things to do so causes black rain/lag and horrible image retention. Using combi mask 6 as a reference for setting FSAD (and thus your black level) yields a black rain free image that is still below stock black level.

Yes, VOL SUS does clear combi mask 6, but it does nothing to combat black rain/lag. Set FSAD back to 128 and clear combi mask 6 by simply raising VOL SUS and your set will have horrible black rain/lag and IR.

Using raster mask 1 (white field) as a reference to set X/YSUSB (after raising FSAD to clear combi mask 6) gives the Kuro the remaining amount of juice to produce a nice clean picture with no artifacts.

My goal when I developed this workflow was a red tint free image with black level no higher than stock with no artifacts while maintaining reference. On all sets that I have applied this work flow, the black level is always below stock (both visually and by meter). The reason for this is because RSTP is much lower than it's pre-reset value after workflow completion. The last step (where rstp is checked) allows for further tweaking of black level. The black level improvement is much more obvious when working on a non reset display, so you may not be seeing any improvement because your set was already reset and you're used to it.

Sure you can juggle a bit between VOL SUS and FSAD to not have to raise FSAD too much, but you will have some black rain/lag. It's all a matter of compromise.

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Pioneer Kuro PRO-111FD x 2
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post #2258 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
In the past, I used to juggle between raising VOL SUS and lowering XSUSB/YSUSB but after performing pre and post reset voltage measurements on multiple Kuros from the entire model spectrum, I lean towards the latter, as VOL SUS readings remained unchanged in these trials (meaning VOL SUS does not change as the panel ages).

I wouldn't call effects of raising FSAD until combi mask 6 is clear as detrimental. What this step does is it sets the "safe floor" for your black level, as anything lower than this will yield black rain/lag, IR and blotchy black field. Remember, these things were NOT designed to produce OLED blacks. Forcing these things to do so causes black rain/lag and horrible image retention. Using combi mask 6 as a reference for setting FSAD (and thus your black level) yields a black rain free image that is still below stock black level.

Yes, VOL SUS does clear combi mask 6, but it does nothing to combat black rain/lag. Set FSAD back to 128 and clear combi mask 6 by simply raising VOL SUS and your set will have horrible black rain/lag and IR.

Using raster mask 1 (white field) as a reference to set X/YSUSB (after raising FSAD to clear combi mask 6) gives the Kuro the remaining amount of juice to produce a nice clean picture with no artifacts.

My goal when I developed this workflow was a red tint free image with black level no higher than stock with no artifacts while maintaining reference. On all sets that I have applied this work flow, the black level is always below stock (both visually and by meter). The reason for this is because RSTP is much lower than it's pre-reset value after workflow completion. The last step (where rstp is checked) allows for further tweaking of black level. The black level improvement is much more obvious when working on a non reset display, so you may not be seeing any improvement because your set was already reset and you're used to it.

Sure you can juggle a bit between VOL SUS and FSAD to not have to raise FSAD too much, but you will have some black rain/lag. It's all a matter of compromise.

OK, that's interesting that VOL_SUS does not change pre and post reset, I think that I'll put it back to 128 and use YSUS_B & XSUS_B to clear a white field.

Do you know in what different way YSUS_B & XSUS_B clear a white field instead of VOL_SUS as only a few clicks down does the job but VOL_SUS needs 30-40 clicks upwards? YSUS_B & XSUS_B also have no impact on any other Mask whereas raising VOL_SUS clears other Masks?

Don't get me wrong, raising FSAD is not detrimental in it's own right but the black level is back to stock (0.0005 ftL) when it is set so COMBI6 is clear hence the same as stock.

It's great that you have actually measured the voltages pre an post reset so there are hard facts about what they are doing. Out of curiosity, what voltages do change post reset?

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post #2259 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 06:45 PM
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So Eddie, what have you measured vsus at? I am also interested to hear your response to the above.
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post #2260 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 07:03 PM
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OK, that's interesting that VOL_SUS does not change pre and post reset, I think that I'll put it back to 128 and use YSUS_B & XSUS_B to clear a white field.

Do you know in what different way YSUS_B & XSUS_B clear a white field instead of VOL_SUS as only a few clicks down does the job but VOL_SUS needs 30-40 clicks upwards? YSUS_B & XSUS_B also have no impact on any other Mask whereas raising VOL_SUS clears other Masks?

Don't get me wrong, raising FSAD is not detrimental in it's own right but the black level is back to stock (0.0005 ftL) when it is set so COMBI6 is clear hence the same as stock.

It's great that you have actually measured the voltages pre an post reset so there are hard facts about what they are doing. Out of curiosity, what voltages do change post reset?
Not sure, but I think VOL SUS adjusts the overall voltage while XSUS and YSUS adjusts voltage going into the X and Y boards respectively.

Do you have a meter that can read .0005ftL or are you going by visual? My meter can read no lower than .001 and when working on non 9.5 gen sets (whose stock black level is .001) they are all unreadable by my meter after workflow completion.

Remember, you can lower RSTP after setting FSAD and X/YSUSB to lower black level a bit more.

It's all personal preference. If you can handle some black rain then don't raise FSAD until combi mask 6 is clear. 10 ticks below the value that nets a clear mask should be a nice compromise.

RSTP, VOL OFFSET and one of the XPOFS changes post reset. After reset, RSTP went down (which means it goes up over time), VOL OFFSET went up (which means it goes down over time).

The only difference that I saw between the 50 inch and 60 inch sets is that on the 60 inch sets XPOFS1 went down after reset (meaning it increases over time) while on the 50 inch set, XPOFS2 went UP after reset (meaning it decreases over time).

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post #2261 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 07:04 PM
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So Eddie, what have you measured vsus at? I am also interested to hear your response to the above.
I performed measurements on four sets - two 141s and two 111s.

VOL SUS was around 199 to 213.

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Will volsus have any effect on black level?
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post #2263 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 09:40 PM
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Will volsus have any effect on black level?
It has no impact on black level but set too high you will see white sparkles in black and you need to keep an eye on the panel temperature and make sure it doesn't get too hot!

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post #2264 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 09:48 PM
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Not sure, but I think VOL SUS adjusts the overall voltage while XSUS and YSUS adjusts voltage going into the X and Y boards respectively.

Do you have a meter that can read .0005ftL or are you going by visual? My meter can read no lower than .001 and when working on non 9.5 gen sets (whose stock black level is .001) they are all unreadable by my meter after workflow completion.

Remember, you can lower RSTP after setting FSAD and X/YSUSB to lower black level a bit more.

It's all personal preference. If you can handle some black rain then don't raise FSAD until combi mask 6 is clear. 10 ticks below the value that nets a clear mask should be a nice compromise.

RSTP, VOL OFFSET and one of the XPOFS changes post reset. After reset, RSTP went down (which means it goes up over time), VOL OFFSET went up (which means it goes down over time).

The only difference that I saw between the 50 inch and 60 inch sets is that on the 60 inch sets XPOFS1 went down after reset (meaning it increases over time) while on the 50 inch set, XPOFS2 went UP after reset (meaning it decreases over time).

My X-Rite colourmunki can read down to 0.0005ftL, it won't be accurate but it can read the luminance.

Great findings by the way, but strange voltages that change as none of them really help when adjusting post reset except maybe RSTP

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post #2265 of 2274 Old 07-12-2016, 11:58 PM
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My X-Rite colourmunki can read down to 0.0005ftL, it won't be accurate but it can read the luminance.

Great findings by the way, but strange voltages that change as none of them really help when adjusting post reset except maybe RSTP
Are you sure the colormunki can read down to .0005? Doesn't seem right to me since the lowest the i1 display pro3, which is a better and more expensive meter, can read is .001.

You wouldn't happen to be using Color HCFR for your readings would you? When I first started calibrating displays, I used HCFR and remember it reporting .0005 readings off my i1 display pro 3, which is inaccurate.

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Are you sure the colormunki can read down to .0005? Doesn't seem right to me since the lowest the i1 display pro3, which is a better and more expensive meter, can read is .001.

You wouldn't happen to be using Color HCFR for your readings would you? When I first started calibrating displays, I used HCFR and remember it reporting .0005 readings off my i1 display pro 3, which is inaccurate.
Yes I do use HCFR

I'm pretty sure it can read down to .0005ftL but it will go no lower. If i lower RSTP it will become unreadable but if I raise RSTP it will measure .0006ftL, .0007ftL, .0008ftL so on and so on etc

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post #2267 of 2274 Old 07-13-2016, 04:24 PM
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Yes I do use HCFR

I'm pretty sure it can read down to .0005ftL but it will go no lower. If i lower RSTP it will become unreadable but if I raise RSTP it will measure .0006ftL, .0007ftL, .0008ftL so on and so on etc
HCFR is reporting incorrect readings. Trust me on this. My i1 display pro 3 was also magically able to read down to .0005fTL using HCFR and I was the same behavior when raising RSTP or SAD. It wouldn't read anything below .0005fTL. Change the precision on HCFR to four decimal points and it will report the correct .001 reading.

I ended up switching over to Calman and lo and behold, the lowest reported reading is .001fTL as per the meter's specifications.

In order to read .0005fTL, you'd have to get a Klein, which costs thousands of dollars.

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post #2268 of 2274 Old 07-13-2016, 04:27 PM
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Yes I do use HCFR

I'm pretty sure it can read down to .0005ftL but it will go no lower. If i lower RSTP it will become unreadable but if I raise RSTP it will measure .0006ftL, .0007ftL, .0008ftL so on and so on etc
To add to this, when measuring my brother's VT60, whose black level is around the .001 to .0012 range, ColorHCFR was reporting readings between .0005 and .0006 while Calman correctly reported a range between .001 and .0012.

Once I changed the number of digits on HCFR, it's readings matched Calman.

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post #2269 of 2274 Old 07-13-2016, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
To add to this, when measuring my brother's VT60, whose black level is around the .001 to .0012 range, ColorHCFR was reporting readings between .0005 and .0006 while Calman correctly reported a range between .001 and .0012.

Once I changed the number of digits on HCFR, it's readings matched Calman.
Thanks for this Eddie, do you remember how to change the number of digits?

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post #2270 of 2274 Old 07-14-2016, 06:17 PM
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Thanks for this Eddie, do you remember how to change the number of digits?
Actually, my memory was way off. In fact, it was Calman that was reporting a .0006 reading while HCF was reporting .001. Here's a thread I initiated in the Calman forum regarding inconsistent black level readings. Keep in mind this was back in December 2014 so a lot has changed.

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...31cba6a98a4436

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post #2271 of 2274 Old 08-10-2016, 10:35 AM
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I have a KRP500a - 18,000hrs
I tried adjusting the voltages, but stupidly decided to reset

Since the reset I have red sparkle pixels on a dark black / grey scene. If i put an all black field up its fine, same for all white. If i adjust vol sus really low then the red goes, but magenta is massively present on a white field. vol sus is currently at 160 in order for all magenta to go.

Is there anything you can suggest I do?

Thank You
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post #2272 of 2274 Old 08-10-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Durbridge View Post
I have a KRP500a - 18,000hrs
I tried adjusting the voltages, but stupidly decided to reset

Since the reset I have red sparkle pixels on a dark black / grey scene. If i put an all black field up its fine, same for all white. If i adjust vol sus really low then the red goes, but magenta is massively present on a white field. vol sus is currently at 160 in order for all magenta to go.

Is there anything you can suggest I do?

Thank You
I've reset my KRP-500M many times. Here is what I believe is the correct way to get rid of the magenta sparkles after reset. Make sure all the voltages are at the default values.

XPOFS2: change from 063 to 78
YSUS B: change from 128 to 124
XSUS B: change from 128 to 126

That's it. There's no need to touch VOL SUS. Leave it alone at 128.
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post #2273 of 2274 Old 08-10-2016, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post
I've reset my KRP-500M many times. Here is what I believe is the correct way to get rid of the magenta sparkles after reset. Make sure all the voltages are at the default values.

XPOFS2: change from 063 to 78
YSUS B: change from 128 to 124
XSUS B: change from 128 to 126

That's it. There's no need to touch VOL SUS. Leave it alone at 128.
Thanks very much for getting back to me mate. Do you know the "default" values for a krp500, or are they specific to each set?
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post #2274 of 2274 Old 08-11-2016, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post
I've reset my KRP-500M many times. Here is what I believe is the correct way to get rid of the magenta sparkles after reset. Make sure all the voltages are at the default values.

XPOFS2: change from 063 to 78
YSUS B: change from 128 to 124
XSUS B: change from 128 to 126

That's it. There's no need to touch VOL SUS. Leave it alone at 128.
Just tried these settings. I needed to lower YSUS B to 122 and XSUS B to 124 but all horrible sparkles have gone now.

Thanks very much for the help
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