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post #2341 of 2352 Old 11-03-2016, 06:43 PM
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Thanks for the replies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81
The setting in the service menu is simply an offset to the actual internal voltage. IMO, keeping it at 1 ensures that the internal voltage is always at the lowest possible value in relation to the aging algorithm.
^^ This is exactly what I needed to know

Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81
Fair enough. I gave up on trying to achieve OLED blacks on my Kuros because they were not designed to do so nor are they capable of doing so without any type of picture defects / artifacts. This is especially true with the 60 inch models (aside from some 2009 builds that can be pushed a bit farther than others). I strive for red tint free blacks.
Do you know the build dates on these 60" sets? And do you mean they can go to a bit lower MLL without artifacts both with tweaking and post-reset? Thinking of trying to tweak SAD lower and will eventually take the plunge on the difficult 60" reset when/if red tint comes back, and curious if my panel falls into this slightly-better category. It is a Feb 2009 build.

Thanks.
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post #2342 of 2352 Old 11-04-2016, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patios View Post
Thanks for the replies.


^^ This is exactly what I needed to know



Do you know the build dates on these 60" sets? And do you mean they can go to a bit lower MLL without artifacts both with tweaking and post-reset? Thinking of trying to tweak SAD lower and will eventually take the plunge on the difficult 60" reset when/if red tint comes back, and curious if my panel falls into this slightly-better category. It is a Feb 2009 build.

Thanks.
This is all anecdotal, since I've never owned an 09 60 inch set, but Feb 2009 build should fall in that category.

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post #2343 of 2352 Old 11-07-2016, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggoslave View Post
I get all that hence me keeping RSTP at default for the card at 31 (pre-reset value was actually 63) which gives me the potential adjustment to lower RSTP as the set ages again. If I have it at 1 now what do I do when the red tint returns bar resetting again..which I don't ever want to inflict on this set again. Look I'm happy with the slightly red tinted 0 IRE but what makes it stand out more is that the next band up is green tinted. Putting up a grayscale/gamma ramp makes it all very clear where the errors are.

Re. Calibration, I have the same meter btw, and the MLL is definitely readable with SAD over 200. Now at 160 it is unreadable.

I'll be interested to see how you go with the calibration though. Keep us posted.
I found some time over the weekend to calibrate my 141fd.

Prior to diving into calibration, I verified voltages and measured black level. With SAD at 198 and RSTP at 1, my i1 Display Pro 3 measured black level at .0012. If I lowered SAD to 188 (which my panel can handle, but causes some magenta lag) black level lowered to .0008. I previously owned a different 141fd that had no red tint (until hours reached approximately 11000) and whose voltages were tweaked but pulse meter NOT reset, and its black level was unreadable by the same meter. With all voltages at default, black level was .0012 on that panel. I decided to leave SAD at 198 because of the stray magenta lag. Remember, my strategy is to accomplish a red tint and artifact free picture and not push the panel beyond its limits with regards to black level.

Calibration was par for the course for any Kuro calibration - smooth sailing. However, my eyes and meter did notice the green push on 10 IRE. I noticed that gamma at 10 IRE was at around 2.13. I had to set it to -1 to get it to 2.20 on ISF Day and -2 to get it to 2.24 on ISF Night. Overall gamma on ISF Day was 2.21 and 2.24 on ISF Night. Correcting gamma had a positive effect on the aforementioned green push, as it was less noticeable to my eyes and was confirmed by the meter as green was closer in line to red and blue. This side effect is preferable to red tinted blacks IMO.

The AVSHD709 black clipping pattern was dramatically more neutral gray compared to the red and clipped mess that it was when the pulse meter was freshly reset (all bars were red at that time). 5 IRE still had a slight red push to it, but, again, not as severe as when the pulse meter was freshly reset.

I put up my current go to torture scene (Star Wars The Force Awakens when Kylo Ren and the General meet up with Supreme Leader Snook). Compared to when the pulse meter was first reset, near black details were dramatically more visible and the previously mentioned side effects (red and green tinge to low end grayscale) were not noticeable at all. Fresh off a reset, this scene was a black clipped red tinged mess.

There is a natural desire to lower SAD for lowered black level but I'm going to let it be, as the picture looks very clean, especially near black and shadow details, and an idle black field looks completely even with no dark blotch in the middle. Perhaps more wiggle room for SAD will be available as the aging algorithms continue to do their thing.
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post #2344 of 2352 Old 11-08-2016, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I found some time over the weekend to calibrate my 141fd.

Prior to diving into calibration, I verified voltages and measured black level. With SAD at 198 and RSTP at 1, my i1 Display Pro 3 measured black level at .0012. If I lowered SAD to 188 (which my panel can handle, but causes some magenta lag) black level lowered to .0008. I previously owned a different 141fd that had no red tint (until hours reached approximately 11000) and whose voltages were tweaked but pulse meter NOT reset, and its black level was unreadable by the same meter. With all voltages at default, black level was .0012 on that panel. I decided to leave SAD at 198 because of the stray magenta lag. Remember, my strategy is to accomplish a red tint and artifact free picture and not push the panel beyond its limits with regards to black level.

Calibration was par for the course for any Kuro calibration - smooth sailing. However, my eyes and meter did notice the green push on 10 IRE. I noticed that gamma at 10 IRE was at around 2.13. I had to set it to -1 to get it to 2.20 on ISF Day and -2 to get it to 2.24 on ISF Night. Overall gamma on ISF Day was 2.21 and 2.24 on ISF Night. Correcting gamma had a positive effect on the aforementioned green push, as it was less noticeable to my eyes and was confirmed by the meter as green was closer in line to red and blue. This side effect is preferable to red tinted blacks IMO.

The AVSHD709 black clipping pattern was dramatically more neutral gray compared to the red and clipped mess that it was when the pulse meter was freshly reset (all bars were red at that time). 5 IRE still had a slight red push to it, but, again, not as severe as when the pulse meter was freshly reset.

I put up my current go to torture scene (Star Wars The Force Awakens when Kylo Ren and the General meet up with Supreme Leader Snook). Compared to when the pulse meter was first reset, near black details were dramatically more visible and the previously mentioned side effects (red and green tinge to low end grayscale) were not noticeable at all. Fresh off a reset, this scene was a black clipped red tinged mess.

There is a natural desire to lower SAD for lowered black level but I'm going to let it be, as the picture looks very clean, especially near black and shadow details, and an idle black field looks completely even with no dark blotch in the middle. Perhaps more wiggle room for SAD will be available as the aging algorithms continue to do their thing.
Yeah thanks for confirming those WB/Gamma errors in the lower IREs. I've tried pretty much everything wrt the various voltage adjustments in the SM and of course via calibration with the 9-point manual gamma adjustments via ISF to no avail.

Yes you can adjust the gamma to your preferred value but flattening WB on these reset 60" sets is nigh on impossible. Generally I always aim for a flat 30 IRE to 80 IRE WB, ie. errors under 0.2, as that's where most of the viewing content is resident but you usually don't have to pay as large a price in the lower end IREs as I've found on this panel. I'll just have to live with it I suppose.
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post #2345 of 2352 Old 11-08-2016, 02:15 AM
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Hello Eddie, Kuro experts,
How are you doing?

I got a 6090H series. I am following the topic and fully understand it is better not to reset the 60 inches variant. I played with the voltage and only put rstp at 1 and lowered Fsad 15 clicks down. As expected I have magenta trails when transition from dark scenes to lighter one. Does it mean I lowered Fsad too much?
Thanks.
R

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post #2346 of 2352 Old 11-09-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggoslave View Post
Yeah thanks for confirming those WB/Gamma errors in the lower IREs. I've tried pretty much everything wrt the various voltage adjustments in the SM and of course via calibration with the 9-point manual gamma adjustments via ISF to no avail.

Yes you can adjust the gamma to your preferred value but flattening WB on these reset 60" sets is nigh on impossible. Generally I always aim for a flat 30 IRE to 80 IRE WB, ie. errors under 0.2, as that's where most of the viewing content is resident but you usually don't have to pay as large a price in the lower end IREs as I've found on this panel. I'll just have to live with it I suppose.
Have you attempted to adjust gamma at 10 IRE to mitigate the green push? While it doesn't completely eliminate it, it does reduce it.

I calibrated my friend's stock 151fd and it also had a green push at 10 IRE, albeit not as pronounced as my reset 141fd. With gamma at around 2.15, there was no push, with gamma in the 2.20 range, there was a push so we had to pick between green push or 2.15 gamma at 10 IRE. He chose the neutral grayscale with 2.15 gamma.

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post #2347 of 2352 Old 11-09-2016, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabah.aouni View Post
Hello Eddie, Kuro experts,
How are you doing?

I got a 6090H series. I am following the topic and fully understand it is better not to reset the 60 inches variant. I played with the voltage and only put rstp at 1 and lowered Fsad 15 clicks down. As expected I have magenta trails when transition from dark scenes to lighter one. Does it mean I lowered Fsad too much?
Thanks.
R

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Yes. From my experience, anything beyond a 10 tick reduction will cause magenta lag on some sets. In fact, I've had to raise SAD (from default) on some sets to eliminate pre-existing magenta lag.

The 60 inch sets offer little to no wiggle room for voltage tweaking. I suggest lowering RSTP to 1 and either leaving SAD at default or raise it 10 ticks to remove any preexisting magenta lag.

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post #2348 of 2352 Old 11-10-2016, 12:59 AM
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Cheers mate!
Will do and let you know.
R

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post #2349 of 2352 Old 11-10-2016, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Have you attempted to adjust gamma at 10 IRE to mitigate the green push? While it doesn't completely eliminate it, it does reduce it.

I calibrated my friend's stock 151fd and it also had a green push at 10 IRE, albeit not as pronounced as my reset 141fd. With gamma at around 2.15, there was no push, with gamma in the 2.20 range, there was a push so we had to pick between green push or 2.15 gamma at 10 IRE. He chose the neutral grayscale with 2.15 gamma.
As I said I've tried everything. If I listed my current 9-point gamma values you'd laugh, all over the place with individually adjusted RGB values for the various IREs but they are what they are. They give me flat WB & Gamma curves from about 30-80 IRE which is the best I can hope for.

Interesting that the stock KURO also has green push which confirms in my mind that it develops naturally as the panel ages. On my panel the green tint is uneven with it being more pronounced on the left side of the screen.
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post #2350 of 2352 Old 11-16-2016, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leggoslave View Post
As I said I've tried everything. If I listed my current 9-point gamma values you'd laugh, all over the place with individually adjusted RGB values for the various IREs but they are what they are. They give me flat WB & Gamma curves from about 30-80 IRE which is the best I can hope for.

Interesting that the stock KURO also has green push which confirms in my mind that it develops naturally as the panel ages. On my panel the green tint is uneven with it being more pronounced on the left side of the screen.
I'm aware that you were not able to fully resolve the issue, just wondering if adjusting gamma to -1 (RGB all at -1) for 10 IRE helped mitigate the issue as it did on my set. The remaining IRE points on my set are par for the course for any Kuro - close to perfect.

For gamma, I've found that on the 60 inch sets, a contrast setting higher than 37 causes gamma to dip on the high end. I saw it on my previous 141fd with 7000 hours, my current 141fd with 18K hours and my friends 151fd with 6500 hours. The only thing that varied was the peak light output produced by the sets, with the lower hour one yielding higher light output (around 39ftl) compared to the higher hour one (36ftl). Raising VOL SUS increases light output, but in my case, also increases red tint a bit.

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post #2351 of 2352 Old 11-19-2016, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I'm aware that you were not able to fully resolve the issue, just wondering if adjusting gamma to -1 (RGB all at -1) for 10 IRE helped mitigate the issue as it did on my set. The remaining IRE points on my set are par for the course for any Kuro - close to perfect.

For gamma, I've found that on the 60 inch sets, a contrast setting higher than 37 causes gamma to dip on the high end. I saw it on my previous 141fd with 7000 hours, my current 141fd with 18K hours and my friends 151fd with 6500 hours. The only thing that varied was the peak light output produced by the sets, with the lower hour one yielding higher light output (around 39ftl) compared to the higher hour one (36ftl). Raising VOL SUS increases light output, but in my case, also increases red tint a bit.
Yep, agree with all the above. 10IRE is at -2 and the rest generally at -1 for ISF Day. Luminance, with a Contrast of 37, is at approx 35ftL on a 10% window, 41ftL on a 6.5% window. This is on a panel with 21K hrs on it.

My Grayscale Delta E values are all under 2.0 with the middle IREs (30-70) all under 0.5. Don't think I can do any better.

My VOL SUS, X & Y-SUS are at default.
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post #2352 of 2352 Old Today, 07:59 AM
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I spent some more time in the SM on my 6020 and just wanted to give a data point on lowering SAD.

To start with, RSTP has been lowered to 1 with no ill effects. Default SAD is 128, I can see zero magenta trailing on Combi mask 10 until I lower SAD to 109. 110 and up is fine. Any hint of red tint is gone below about 115 or so, so I leave it at 111. There is a small blotchiness to the blacks on a 0% black screen, but it was there before I did any tweaks and the tweaks did not make it worse as far as I can tell. It is not noticeable on the 5% window or real content. However, if I lower SAD below 110, it starts to get bigger.

Blacks still glow quite a bit in a dark room on a 0% field or 5% window but from what I've read this seems normal. I wish I had another kuro to compare it to, as I have no way to measure the black level. Blacks blend completely into the bezel in a pitch dark room when fed a 30% window or higher, but the glow is noticeable at 25% and below in progressively higher amounts. As I said 5% glows quite a bit, so it's very true that the 60" sets can not be tweaked anywhere near perfect black. I'm guessing I'm slightly higher than stock right now (but there's no red tint, so I'm happy). I'm thinking it's around 0.002 ftL (with stock being 0.001). I'm curious what I should be expecting with dark room glow. Has anyone else used these window patterns to crudely measure black level?

With content, low APL scenes glow quite noticeably like the window patterns but higher ones have bezel-blending blacks.

Also, at my 111 SAD setting, a small group of magenta-colored pixels in combo mask 9 does take a bit longer to turn white if and only if I run it immediately after leaving a black screen on for a long time. If I run it after watching regular content, or run the mask for a second time, all pixels turn white evenly. Again this phenomenon has never manifested itself in content.

I tried lowering SAD to 98 for a while. As it is below 110 this brings magenta lag on combi mask 10. It also increases the otherwise benign small black blotch into something more noticeable. But I can't see any magenta trailing in content, and blacks are better, so it is tempting to use. I've decided against it for now as it is right at minimum voltage and I really just wanted to remove red tint. If I do decide to go that low, is there any chance of harm due to under-driving the panel? I'm guessing no since reset sets probably go below this level, but I still want to be careful.
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