ATTENTION - Samsung PNxxF5300 and PNxxF5350 - MLL Rise (just like Panasonic X1/S10/G10/V10/Z1) - Need a Fix - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Several members have already reported MLL rise with Samsung PNxxF5300 and PNxxF5350 and I am sure that if these sets were more popular then even more people with colorimeters/spectrometers would report the same issue. I am making this thread so that we can find out whether it affects all or only some sets and which sets they are. Some members reported that the issue started after updating to the latest firmware, but I think not - my set's MLL rose without applying any updates. The issue seems to be very similar to Panasonic X1/S10/G10/V10/Z1 models MLL rise, which received a fix after the issue was brought to attention. With these sets - MLL rise seems to happen much faster, but I am hoping that a similar fix can be done for them if enough people have and report the issue.

Model - Samsung PN51F5350. Original and current firmware version - 1025. Colorimeter - i1Display Pro. Software - CalMAN v5 Enthusiast.
Issue description:
Original out-of-the-box MLL without breaking in - 0.013 cd/m^2 without CS (CS = Cinema Smooth), with CS = have not tested out-of-the-box.
MLL after 48hrs of moderate use - 0.020 cd/m^2 without CS, 0.021 cd/m^2 with CS. No firmware was applied.

To all the owners of these sets - please provide your model number, original and current firmware versions, original and current MLL (or MLL for each firmware version),
colorimeter/spectrometer and software used. Please stick to cd/m^2 format or at least provide it along with fTL measure to make sure everyone is on the same page.
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post #2 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 11:41 AM
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Thanks for starting this thread. I just bought the PN51F5300; however, I have no metering equipment and I'm new to the science of calibration. My set was manufactured in October, shipped with firmware v.1025, updated to v.1027, and it has seen approx. 150 hours of use.

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post #3 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 12:33 PM
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Just an FYI, I've also heard of calibrator reports of the F8500 rising too.

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post #4 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, well, I wish I could edit thread title, but regardless of that - we need way more reports either here or somewhere else to show that this is a persistent problem. We also need people with colorimeters because just saying you got one of these TVs isn't going to help anyone figure out if you have that problem or not.
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post #5 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post

Thanks for starting this thread. I just bought the PN51F5300; however, I have no metering equipment and I'm new to the science of calibration. My set was manufactured in October, shipped with firmware v.1025, updated to v.1027, and it has seen approx. 150 hours of use.

You could rent a colorimeter or a spectrometer too if you wish to save money and calibrate your TV.
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post #6 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Several members have already reported MLL rise with Samsung PNxxF5300 and PNxxF5350 and I am sure that if these sets were more popular then even more people with colorimeters/spectrometers would report the same issue. I am making this thread so that we can find out whether it affects all or only some sets and which sets they are. Some members reported that the issue started after updating to the latest firmware, but I think not - my set's MLL rose without applying any updates. The issue seems to be very similar to Panasonic X1/S10/G10/V10/Z1 models MLL rise, which received a fix after the issue was brought to attention. With these sets - MLL rise seems to happen much faster, but I am hoping that a similar fix can be done for them if enough people have and report the issue.

Model - Samsung PN51F5350. Original and current firmware version - 1025. Colorimeter - i1Display Pro. Software - CalMAN v5 Enthusiast.
Issue description:
Original out-of-the-box MLL without breaking in - 0.013 cd/m^2 without CS (CS = Cinema Smooth), with CS = have not tested out-of-the-box.
MLL after 48hrs of moderate use - 0.020 cd/m^2 without CS, 0.021 cd/m^2 with CS. No firmware was applied.

To all the owners of these sets - please provide your model number, original and current firmware versions, original and current MLL (or MLL for each firmware version),
colorimeter/spectrometer and software used. Please stick to cd/m^2 format or at least provide it along with fTL measure to make sure everyone is on the same page.

PN51F5300 (Sample one, November build), Firmware 1025, MLL 0.004 fL to 0.005 fL (with CS off)

PN51F5300 (Sample two, October build, current one I own), Firmware 1023 upgraded to 1027.2, MLL 0.006 fL to 0.007 fL... was 0.004 fL to 0.005 fL before update (all with CS off)

0.004 fL ~ 0.0137 cdm
0.005 fL ~ 0.0171 cdm
0.006 fL ~ 0.0206 cdm
0.007 fL ~ 0.0240 cdm

*SpectraCAL C6 colorimeter used with CalMAN 5 Enthusiast Software
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post #7 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Just an FYI, I've also heard of calibrator reports of the F8500 rising too.

Chad B mentioned this behavior on recent F8500 PDPs.
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post #8 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 07:23 PM
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Very disturbing
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post #9 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 08:54 PM
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The last I read, the rising mll on the F8500 was when using Cinema smooth (96hz) mode. But that was supposedly fixed in a previous firmware update.
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post #10 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 09:04 PM
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Might you also ask if anyone actually noticed any difference, it would seem to me that Samsung would respond a lot faster is customers said they noticed it then they got a different reading months later?
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post #11 of 41 Old 01-27-2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Just an FYI, I've also heard of calibrator reports of the F8500 rising too.

Oh wow...that sucks. Soo much for Samsung touting the F8500 as a Kuro killer...
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post #12 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 05:05 AM
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Not this again.. Was looking for a replacement for my G10... Guess I'll take this off the list and BTW there was no official fix to go back to the out of the box black levels on the G10. Some members have built arduino Boxes to reprogram the sets.
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post #13 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 05:13 AM
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This is not the same thing as Panasonic. All sets fluctuate. C-net proved that.

Stop the panic.

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post #14 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 05:14 AM
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I would say the very bad readings Chad has seen on 3 F8500s is reason for concern, they also have decreased light output

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post #15 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Chad B mentioned this behavior on recent F8500 PDPs.

Can you provide a link?

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post #16 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 05:49 AM
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Oh wait, here it is.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I have not given any figures publicly, mainly because, unlike the Panasonic 60 series, I've only done a handful of F8500s. The initial set I reviewed set the standard for plasma brightness and had pretty good black levels. The second I don't remember the black level, but I remember light output only got in the 40's fL range. That sample had had a screen replaced by an authorized tech, though, and I was unsure if it was representative of a normal sample. However, the next two I have done have also only managed in the 40's, and they had much worse black level measurements than the review set both with / without content and with / without black optimizer.

What I've observed might not be rising blacks as hours accumulate; it might be due more to a change in FW or manufacturing.

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post #17 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 07:47 AM
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I definately measured a rise in the black level, but I attributed it to the newest firmware update.

Here are my details.

Model Number: PN51F5300AF

Build Date: March 2013 - Purchased in July 2013

Measurement Equipment: ColorHCFR with a retail i1 Display Pro

Measurements Taken with Firmware version 1017.1 in mid December 2013:
All taken with Black Optimizer set to Dark Room
With Cinema Smooth on: .004 fL (.0137 cd/m²)
With Cinema Smooth off: .005 fL (.0171 cd/m²)

Measurement Taken with Firmware version 1027.2 in mid January 2014:
All taken with Black Optimizer set to Dark Room
With Cinema Smooth on: .005 fL (.0171 cd/m²)
With Cinema Smooth off: .006 fL - .007 fL (.02056 cd/m² - .024 cd/m²)

Now, I must say that after about an hour or so on the newest firmware, I noticed the black levels seemingly "settled in" and measured what they did on the 1017.1 firmware. With 1017.1, I was getting the darker black levels right away and it never moved from there.

Either way, none of these changes were noticable to me in regular viewing.
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post #18 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Oh wait, here it is.....

what does with or without content refer to exactly?
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post #19 of 41 Old 01-28-2014, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

what does with or without content refer to exactly?

Eactly what it says. For further clarification, contact Chad.

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post #20 of 41 Old 02-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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I wonder if the panel version code has anything to do with MLL? US01 vs. US02? If everyone here with a PNxxF5300 or PNxxF5350 could post what version they have, it could help determine if this code has anything to do with the MLL differences reported. This could clarify whether this MLL difference is due mainly to FW or manufacturing differences.
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post #21 of 41 Old 02-14-2014, 03:00 PM
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post #22 of 41 Old 02-15-2014, 09:19 AM
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arrh you got to be kidding , 60f5350 1026 model. us02 jan 14 build . i dont have a meter so i cannot provide mil readings .

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post #23 of 41 Old 03-14-2014, 04:08 PM
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I recently had the main board replaced due to a picture problem with the component input (too dark shadows with no detail plus dim whites with default Movie mode settings). The new board came with firmware 1024.0, which is where I left it. After a few days (today), I decided to measure MLL on a fully black screen and it still measures 0.006 fL to 0.007 fL with a 1080/60p signal. So, it appears to be a manufacturing issue instead of firmware (unless it has something to do with the Logic Board S/W version, which is separate from the main board firmware version). Too bad.
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post #24 of 41 Old 03-14-2014, 05:35 PM
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I remember a CRT I had the component was missing detail in dark levels and looked dim and hardly any color vs svideo which was brighter in dark levels and was more colorful.
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post #25 of 41 Old 05-21-2014, 08:01 PM
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Well I don't have a meter, but I do have a pn51f5300a with 1023 firmware sitting right next to a pn43d450 and it doesn't look good mad.gif

In a dark room, with black optimizer set to off, and cell light at 0 on both plasmas (all other settings like dynamic contrast turned off), the no signal screen shows them as near identical in black level.
If anything to my eyes the d450 is actually edging out the f5300 for black level.

This is ridiculous. Is there anyway we can just revert firmware?


I'm sending an angry letter to samsung and hopefully they will fix this mess.
Although perhaps Samsung found in long term testing that pixels would missfire with the original settings, that's the only reason I can think of.
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post #26 of 41 Old 05-22-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Well I don't have a meter, but I do have a pn51f5300a with 1023 firmware sitting right next to a pn43d450 and it doesn't look good mad.gif

In a dark room, with black optimizer set to off, and cell light at 0 on both plasmas (all other settings like dynamic contrast turned off), the no signal screen shows them as near identical in black level.
If anything to my eyes the d450 is actually edging out the f5300 for black level.

This is ridiculous. Is there anyway we can just revert firmware?


I'm sending an angry letter to samsung and hopefully they will fix this mess.
Although perhaps Samsung found in long term testing that pixels would missfire with the original settings, that's the only reason I can think of.

It wasn't firmware at least in my case, since I had my main board replaced with a new one that had older firmware and the black level did not go down. So, I think it's more a panel lottery thing where some panels do a bit better in black level than others. FWIW, with 1200 hours on my set, I'm now getting a black level of about 0.0056 fL with black optimizer set to dark room (and 0.009 fL with it off).
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post #27 of 41 Old 05-22-2014, 05:58 PM
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It's odd that others seem to be reporting a change only after the firmware update though.

Also here is Samsung's clueless response, I suppose I didn't expect any better rolleyes.gif
I specified to them that firmware after 1017 appears to be the culprit for some and they suggested the complete opposite.
They're to busy to read a short email but they can send me this load of crap:


"Thank you for contacting Samsung Customer Care.

After going through your email, I understand that there is a rise in black level of your TV and want to know the cause of issue. I also understand that you want to know whether the issue will be fixed with firmware update. I also understand that you are not satisfied with product quality and want to notify us there are many other users with same issue.

I am sorry for the inconvenience you had with color levels of your TV. I can understand how it feels when there is an issue with a display device.

I have checked the information and found no reported issues with your TV model.

The information posted on forums can not really be validated, we observe that many similar looking issues are posted as a unique issue, but when checked the actual causes always differ. Samsung does not have control over the content posted on third party web-sites.

Please check whether the issue persists with different sources connected to the TV. If the issue persists try connecting the sources using different cables and check whether the issue persists.

To isolate issue perform picture test by selecting menu>>support>>self diagnosis>>picture test and check whether the issue persists with test image.

If there issue persists with test image, the issue could be with the TV and it needs to be serviced.

If there is no issue with test image, please try updating the firmware on the TV. Before upgrading please check the firmware version installed on the TV.

To check the firmware version please select Menu >> Support>>Contact Samsung>> Product Information>>>Software Version.

If the firmware version installed on the TV is less than 1017.1 you need to update the firmware on the TV.

Please click the option firmware in the link below to download and to guide you in upgrading the latest firmware:

http://*******/RXj0z7

If the firmware version installed on the TV is up to date, please try resetting the TV. To reset the TV to factory defaults please press menu >> Support >> Self Diagnosis >> Reset. The default PIN will be 0-0-0-0.

Resetting will set the TV to factory defaults and this might fix the issue.

Following the above steps should fix the issue. If the issue is not resolved, please send us the image of the issue, so that we can assist you further. "
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post #28 of 41 Old 05-23-2014, 09:53 AM
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I had another F5300 I returned after a week for 3 dead pixels and it had firmware 1025 I think and the lower black level. That would be around 0.004 fL with Bo set to dark room.
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post #29 of 41 Old 06-24-2014, 07:46 PM
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I recently purchased the 60F5350 from Costco and have been trying to update from firmware v1003 (seems pretty old, don't you think?). I have download v1027.1 and v1027.2 extracted it to a thumb drive formatted fat32 as per Samsung instructions but the TV would update. I know the TV ca read the thumb drive because media player pops up when insert it. It says "There no new updates for you at the moment". I've contacted Samsung and have gone thru their standard procedures, reset the TV to factory blah, blah, blah default but that didnt help...Has anyone experienced this issue? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.
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post #30 of 41 Old 06-25-2014, 10:05 PM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325 View Post
I recently purchased the 60F5350 from Costco and have been trying to update from firmware v1003 (seems pretty old, don't you think?). I have downloaded v1027.1 and v1027.2
I believe, contrary to what anyone else says (including Samsumg tech support), that the 1027.2 firmware is for the older AFXZA plasmas, not the newer BFXZA plasmas...

Check the back of your unit (or the box) for the last 5 letters of it's name...

1003 is the latest firmware for BFXZA plasmas...

I'm like a beaver...
A hot little beaver...
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