Official Samsung PNxxF8500 "Bugs" Thread - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 490 Old 01-14-2015, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfixit58 View Post
I have a 2 month old Sept 2013 build 64" with about 300 hrs. on it. I have been watching it, and had concerns especially about motion, although I did see some stuff that looked pretty good, usually sports. Now, I am talking about directv feeds mostly. Movies on Directv by in large look like crap especially action scenes. This was not the case with my old Sony sxrd or my 46" panasonic plasma. I thought I and downloaded the latest firmware last month, but I guess it didn't take as I had decided to have a calibrator tune the set and look at it. He downloaded, I believe 1204. Anyway, sometimes the picture is fairly sharp, and lots of times it isn't. Crappy motion makes movies on Direct not worth watching to me as I am very particular about my Video. Last night I was watching the news and when it went to commercial even they were jittery. This is a plasma, should be smooth as silk and is noted to be. I started reading this thread, am only on page 7. Thought it was time to chime in. What's going on here? Help would be greatly appreciated! By the way, everything is turned off,Motion judder etc.
People talk about plasma motion quality all the time and this has led to the misconception that plasma has fluid motion in 30/24fps content, which isn't true. The only time you'll actually see fluid motion with no jittering double image effect is when you have 60 fps content to match the 60hz refresh rate. That means 60fps sports broadcasts, some console games, and the majority of PC games assuming a fast enough system.

Regular TV content is 30fps which means that each frame must be displayed twice to avoid seeing huge amounts of visible flicker (it would feel like a fast strobe light due to the low frequency). This gives you a double image effect that makes motion seem jittery because your eyes see this (horizontal is time, vertical is position):

Code:
o   o
        o   o
                o   o
Which doesn't create a straight line and messes up your motion tracking. The object was moving, but then it stopped, then it started moving again. Optimally you want this, which your eyes will track as continuous motion:
Code:
o    
        o    
                o
But if you have 30fps content those dark gaps will be too long and you'll see the screen flashing, which is going to be way worse than any motion issues. So in that situation the panel shows each frame twice as in the first diagram. If you have 60fps content then each frame just gets shown on a single refresh so there's no visible flicker and your eyes track a clean motion path.
For comparison LCD and current OLED do "sample and hold" which means the screen never goes dark, it just holds the current frame until the next one comes up:

Code:
oooooooo    
        oooooooo    
                oooooooo

This creates the same issue as the double exposure, except now there are no gaps so you don't even see distinct double images, you just get a smear (sample and hold motion blur). Of course with sample and hold even when you have 60hz (or higher) content to display the smear never goes away, it just gets shorter. So LCD is incapable of clear motion at any frame rate (unless you pulse the backlight or introduce black frames to simulate the impulse drive of plasma/CRT). In the extreme case of a 120hz + refresh rate with 120fps+ content the blur becomes relatively insignificant, but this is really only something that applies to PC gaming.

So the TL;DR version of all this is that it's impossible to have smooth motion at 30 or 24fps without introducing an intolerable amount of flicker or interpolating frames (which results in lots of "shredding" when the algorithm fails). And this is why the only solution to motion issues would be to go to HFR 60fps content and have the content creators introduce the amount of motion blur they want at the production level. As the Hobbit movies showed this is a difficult task (I felt that by the 3rd they'd significantly improved on the soap opera look of the 1st, but I'm sure many are still unhappy with it).

Last edited by headlesschickens; 01-14-2015 at 01:48 PM.
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post #482 of 490 Old 01-14-2015, 01:25 PM
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As 4K becomes mainstream, a lot of the judder and motion issues should start to clear up. I believe 4K will require 60 fps broadcast standard. So at least with broadcast tv we will see true 60 fps, which in turn will help those of us with 1080p tv's. Of course, by the time broadcast/cable switch over to 4K, most of us will not even have our current 2K tv's. Unfortunately, the film industry has no such 60 fps standards.
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post #483 of 490 Old 01-14-2015, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kasedogg View Post
Please let us know if replacing the logic board fixes the issue.
Samsung called, and said they would be here on Friday, so a couple days, but no biggie. Once they replace the main logic board, I will see how it goes and make a follow-up post.

I don't have the add-on evolution kit, do most buy this sucker, or just run the TV stock. I saw bitching that it didn't work well for some, so figured I would avoid it for now, but would love to hear if most jump for it or not..
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post #484 of 490 Old 01-14-2015, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberDude View Post
Samsung called, and said they would be here on Friday, so a couple days, but no biggie. Once they replace the main logic board, I will see how it goes and make a follow-up post.

I don't have the add-on evolution kit, do most buy this sucker, or just run the TV stock. I saw bitching that it didn't work well for some, so figured I would avoid it for now, but would love to hear if most jump for it or not..
I was interested in the evolution board too but after reading about the problems people were having and that it only made changes to the apps, I didn't think I'd bother.

If it offered some upgrade in picture quality, I'd at least give it a try.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, VideoForge HDMI II, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #485 of 490 Old 01-18-2015, 03:43 PM
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I don't know is this is a problem with my 64F8500, or my Marantz AV-7702 pre-amp! So I am going to post this in both places and hopefully others will have had this issue and found what the fix is.

My connection: I have my Direct TV DVR box connected to my Marantz AVR via HDMI. And from my AVR (ARC) HDMI, I have HDMI going to the TV HDMI (ARC).
The AVR has pass thru so I don't have to have the AVR on to watch TV.

The problem is when I "only" turn the TV on "without" turning on the AVR and just want to use the TV without the HT, it comes on with a picture and sound for about 10 seconds, then goes blank and says no signal to that input.
Then if I switch to another input and wait a couple seconds, then go back to the input for the AVR then I get a signal and the TV will stay on then. This gets old always having to switch inputs back and forth everytime I just want to watch TV without the surround sound system.
So is this the TV, the AVR, or handshake issue with HDMI?


SOUND: Marantz AV-7702 Pre/Pro, McIntosh MC1706 Amp,
Klipsch RF7-II's, Klipsch RC64-II (Soon), Klipsch RS62-II (Soon), (2) XS15se subs.

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post #486 of 490 Old 01-18-2015, 07:55 PM
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As a follow-up to my earlier posts, Samsung came out on Friday, and replaced the main processor/logic board in my PN64F8500 display. Since then, I have had no issues with hangs, or resets while moving around in the menus on the TV. I have tried various settings, and even Netflix, and all seems well at this time.

So though it's only been a couple days, it does at this time seem like this has corrected the issue..
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post #487 of 490 Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
So is this the TV, the AVR, or handshake issue with HDMI?
Horrible HDMI handshake on F8500 = YES.

One thing that may correct it is a "Full" reset, which you will find if you search 'full reset' in this thread. Be aware that you will have to run the setup after resetting, possibly with the exception of the network setup; IIRC network survives reset. But everything else goes to factory settings.
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post #488 of 490 Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I don't know is this is a problem with my 64F8500, or my Marantz AV-7702 pre-amp! So I am going to post this in both places and hopefully others will have had this issue and found what the fix is.

My connection: I have my Direct TV DVR box connected to my Marantz AVR via HDMI. And from my AVR (ARC) HDMI, I have HDMI going to the TV HDMI (ARC).
The AVR has pass thru so I don't have to have the AVR on to watch TV.

The problem is when I "only" turn the TV on "without" turning on the AVR and just want to use the TV without the HT, it comes on with a picture and sound for about 10 seconds, then goes blank and says no signal to that input.
Then if I switch to another input and wait a couple seconds, then go back to the input for the AVR then I get a signal and the TV will stay on then. This gets old always having to switch inputs back and forth everytime I just want to watch TV without the surround sound system.
So is this the TV, the AVR, or handshake issue with HDMI?
Is CEC turned on for any/all of these devices?
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post #489 of 490 Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I don't know is this is a problem with my 64F8500, or my Marantz AV-7702 pre-amp! So I am going to post this in both places and hopefully others will have had this issue and found what the fix is.

My connection: I have my Direct TV DVR box connected to my Marantz AVR via HDMI. And from my AVR (ARC) HDMI, I have HDMI going to the TV HDMI (ARC).
The AVR has pass thru so I don't have to have the AVR on to watch TV.

The problem is when I "only" turn the TV on "without" turning on the AVR and just want to use the TV without the HT, it comes on with a picture and sound for about 10 seconds, then goes blank and says no signal to that input.
Then if I switch to another input and wait a couple seconds, then go back to the input for the AVR then I get a signal and the TV will stay on then. This gets old always having to switch inputs back and forth everytime I just want to watch TV without the surround sound system.
So is this the TV, the AVR, or handshake issue with HDMI?
I have had more problems with DirecTV boxes. The only stable solution I came up with is DirecTV directly to tv, and then optical from tv to my AVR. Setting audio to Dolby Digital on DirecTV box will cause audio drops, and in some cases, complete loss of audio until I turn the box off and on.
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