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post #91 of 274 Old 02-08-2014, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

I'm reserving judgement till I hear more from the calibrators around here. There are too many conflicting reports on the black optimizer and whether or not these sets have floating blacks. But I also realize that every plasma released this year has some kind of noticeable flaw, no way getting around it.

And I'd still take a flawed plasma over a p.o.s. edge-lit LED.

Saw the 8500 in person for the first time this morning, I did look very very good I must admit. Hmmmm choosing a new set is challenging to say the least. As far as calibrators go, Chad and Buzz both confirm the floating blacks. Know of two DIY calibrators that have measured them also. There is no doubt from a mll and contrast ratio numbers perspective that it exists. What is debatable is how much this affects real world viewing.

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post #92 of 274 Old 02-08-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Saw the 8500 in person for the first time this morning, I did look very very good I must admit. Hmmmm choosing a new set is challenging to say the least. As far as calibrators go, Chad and Buzz both confirm the floating blacks. Know of two DIY calibrators that have measured them also. There is no doubt from a mll and contrast ratio numbers perspective that it exists. What is debatable is how much this affects real world viewing.
Wait, you made the below statement without ever seeing an F8500 in person? eek.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1515623/new-display-dilemma-f8500-or-vt60/60#post_24310523
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post #93 of 274 Old 02-08-2014, 09:22 AM
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Yes based on reports, and talking to calibrators and owners. I never said it was a bad set but I am pretty sure I have the right to decide what is best for me.

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post #94 of 274 Old 02-08-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Saw the 8500 in person for the first time this morning, I did look very very good I must admit. Hmmmm choosing a new set is challenging to say the least. As far as calibrators go, Chad and Buzz both confirm the floating blacks. Know of two DIY calibrators that have measured them also. There is no doubt from a mll and contrast ratio numbers perspective that it exists. What is debatable is how much this affects real world viewing.

FWIW, I believe all of the pro reviews follow along the lines of CNet's review:

"Before I could get to adjusting graycale and color, I was faced with a new setting, and a few familiar ones, that had a large impact on picture quality. The new setting, called "Black Optimizer," is explained by a classic piece of gobbledegook in Samsung's menu ("This function can be represented to more rich black level and magnified contrast of low gradation by PDP waveform and signal compensation"), but the net result is that selecting "Dark Room" improves black level significantly. I measured 0% luminance at 0.002 fL in that setting, while the other two ("Off" and "Bright Room") came in at 0.007 (lower is better). I checked for obvious downsides, for example crushed gamma and floating/popping blacks, but didn't see any, so I chose to calibrate in "Dark Room.""

Tom Norton from Sound & Vision also utilized the BO for his review, but found some slight black crush. I don't believe i've read any reviews that mention floating blacks, however.

Bottom line: If you've owned a Kuro or a newer Panasonic, this TV wouldn't be worth owning if you didn't utilize the BO. You'd be stuck with a black level of .007.
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post #95 of 274 Old 03-02-2014, 06:41 PM
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I've been watching it for a few days now, mostly with factory settings. It's a really nice TV. I'm both not really sure what floating blacks are or should look like, and how they would manifest themselves in the viewing experience. So far, I haven't noticed anything unusual and the blacks appear to be quite good. Once thing I did notice is that in my room during the day, I wouldn't want a TV that was any less bright! At night, the relaxed setting seems to go a good job without being overly bright and fatiguing. All-in-all, it's been a pleasure to watch!  I don't think that anyone who wants a nice TV, and buys it, will be dissatisfied with it.

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post #96 of 274 Old 03-03-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post

I've been watching it for a few days now, mostly with factory settings. It's a really nice TV. I'm both not really sure what floating blacks are or should look like, and how they would manifest themselves in the viewing experience. So far, I haven't noticed anything unusual and the blacks appear to be quite good. Once thing I did notice is that in my room during the day, I wouldn't want a TV that was any less bright! At night, the relaxed setting seems to go a good job without being overly bright and fatiguing. All-in-all, it's been a pleasure to watch!  I don't think that anyone who wants a nice TV, and buys it, will be dissatisfied with it.
If you do not know what floating blacks are and you do not know what to look for, then don't. No reason to worry about something you don't even know about.

Enjoy the TV!
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post #97 of 274 Old 03-03-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post


If you do not know what floating blacks are and you do not know what to look for, then don't. No reason to worry about something you don't even know about.

Enjoy the TV!

Exactly! Plus I suspect that unless conditions were just right, and you were watching something very, very specific (and likely rare) you'd probably never see it in real world TV watching. So far I got no complaints about the picture.

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post #98 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 01:02 AM
 
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Since last year Samsung provided a FirmWare Update 1112.1 that fixed the Floating Blacks bug so that's old news that was already corrected, Meanwhile the VT & ZT both lack Full-3D @1080, because they only scan half the lines making it normally around 540, and thus 3D suffers with Resolution Loss as a result. So what's the point of having a 3D TV that can only do 3D as well as Passive technology which also suffers with 540 Resolution...

 

Not to mention who Won the 2013 Value Electronics Shootout for the HDTV of the Year (Samsung F8500)

 

The Experts liked the Panasonics more by .1 overall, but even after telling the Audience all about where the Panny's shined and were a hair better with measurements the Audience still decided that the Sammy looked the best by .2 overall thus giving it the win!

 

So in the real world when you put the numbers aside and just look at the sets it was obvious that the Samsung was a better looking HDTV. That's why the Panny guys always get mad because although its better technically in everything by a hair except for brightness it still looses the Human Eye Test.

 

Which is ironically hilarious I think, afterall I watch with my Eyes not some special Calibration Tool.

 

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post #99 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 01:13 AM
 
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You just arrived here in February. This VE shootout that you keep highlighting is such old news, and the difference in voting is so close as to be statistically insignificant, so the most accurate description of the shootout is to call it a tie. The pom-pom waving is getting wearisome.
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post #100 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 01:25 AM
 
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I forgot my old Username and Password from my 2004 acct. & decided to just make a new one.

If you wanna be like that then your the newb from 2006. As if that matters somehow....?

 

So in other words your here to Troll instead of adding to the conversation with something meaningful ....

 

Got it, however the 3D issue with the Panny's are still ongoing and so is the debate, but if You say so then

I guess we can just shut down these Forums .... right Mr. Knowitall?

 

I'm here for one thing only which is to discuss and share info, stop Trolling me Vinnie97

 

ps: You assume that Everyone that visit's these Forums will read thru the 100's of pages posted through-out

these Topics to get all the info, it's like trying to read the health care bill cover to cover Good Luck!

A little overview doesn't hurt anyone. These are the fundamentals like with anything when you forget them

they come back later to bite you in the .....

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post #101 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 01:46 AM
 
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I get how it can be helpful to those who have just begun the panel hunt (but they are altogether too late...the F8500 is all that remains in the marketplace, which is why these repeated proclamations of supremacy are bordering on pointless), but I still find there is little reason to bump multiple threads with nearly identical information. It makes forum browsing burdensome to have to trawl through such repetition.

Of course the halved resolution in 3D mode is an ongoing issue. It was a design tradeoff (in favor of more subtle benefits like better grayscale tracking and color accuracy) that probably wasn't the best in hindsight. Unfortunately, 3D in the home in its current incarnation is fading considerably, and this trend could have factored into the tradeoff decision as well.
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post #102 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I get how it can be helpful to those who have just begun the panel hunt (but they are altogether too late...the F8500 is all that remains in the marketplace, which is why these repeated proclamations of supremacy are bordering on pointless), but I still find there is little reason to bump multiple threads with nearly identical information. It makes forum browsing burdensome to have to trawl through such repetition.

Of course the halved resolution in 3D mode is an ongoing issue. It was a design tradeoff (in favor of more subtle benefits like better grayscale tracking and color accuracy) that probably wasn't the best in hindsight. Unfortunately, 3D in the home in its current incarnation is fading considerably, and this trend could have factored into the tradeoff decision as well.

Well, LG continues to make plasmas as well.

As for the info, I have no issues seeing it multiple times. It's been done before with other brands, specifically panny and kuro.

This is amusing Vinnie. I guess it wasn't pointless when thread after thread was littered with the now defunct kuro being the greatest or perfect tv. Even now I still see some of that but you seemingly have no issues there.
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post #103 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:04 AM
 
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LG is an afterthought when it comes to plasma and the best PQ, as it has been for some time. And there's nothing funny, Paul...a 6-year-old TV flat panel that still beats benchmarks in TVs released in 2013 is what we call a reference, which much to your disgust and indignation will mean the comparisons will long continue until the last plasma is ever built. I guess we can wax poetic about the F8500 being some kind of reference for eye-searing brightness, but that just doesn't (or shouldn't by my estimation) hold the same significance as the denominator when it comes to contrast ratio and what it brings to the table for the viewing experience in low to no lighting situations (always my preferred viewing environment, going back to the first no-name brand LCD TV I bought 10 some odd years ago). Glossy screens and brighter environments just don't mix for an unimpeded viewing experience.
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post #104 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

LG is an afterthought when it comes to plasma and the best PQ, as it has been for some time. And there's nothing funny, Paul...a 6-year-old TV flat panel that still beats benchmarks in TVs released in 2013 is what we call a reference, which much to your disgust and indignation will mean the comparisons will long continue until the last plasma is ever built. I guess we can wax poetic about the F8500 being some kind of reference for eye-searing brightness, but that just doesn't (or shouldn't by my estimation) hold the same significance as the denominator when it comes to contrast ratio and what it brings to the table for the viewing experience in low to no lighting situations (always my preferred viewing environment, going back to the first no-name brand LCD TV I bought 10 some odd years ago). Glossy screens and brighter environments just don't mix for an unimpeded viewing experience.

Funny how you talk about Contrast Ratio when the Audience who Voted using their Eye's gave the F8500 higher marks over the Panny's in:

(Contrast, Moving Resolution & Day Mode) and even tied the VT for Color Accuracy.

 

Because that's how you really see these TV's, when your not staring directly into the Meter.

 

And again in the Real World the majority of people don't own caves or dedicate HT Rooms,

so watching with some light does matter a lot.

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post #105 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:37 AM
 
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I *really* don't need to see that scoring sheet again for heaven's sake. I watched the shootout as it happened and waited with baited breath for the results to be posted.

And it's not "funny" at all really. The denominator makes the most visible impact on contrast ratio, which is the primary reason why the 500M/101FD (Pioneer) are such striking panels to this day...otherwise the LCDs, which can eclipse all the above plasmas in sheer brightness, would have taken home the prize on said score sheet. You don't need a cave nor even a dedicated HT room to take advantage of low lighting environments. Sundown is really all you need. It's also ridiculously simplistic to merely take the max panel brightness and the mll to define the CR while failing to account for ANSI along with viewing environment specifics. I would like to hear Kevin Miller, D-Nice, and David McKenzie weigh in on Chad's recent higher brightness revelation, however. It would go some way in rendering some of these bragging points moot (don't worry, you'd still have your ABL and 3D superiority).
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I *really* don't need to see that scoring sheet again for heaven's sake.

And it's not "funny" at all really. The denominator makes the most visible impact on contrast ratio, which is the primary reason why the 500M/101FD (Pioneer) are such striking panels to this day...otherwise the LCDs, which can eclipse all the above plasmas in sheer brightness, would have taken home the prize on said score sheet. You don't need a cave nor even a dedicated HT room to take advantage of low lighting environments. Sundown is really all you need. It's also ridiculously simplistic to merely take the max panel brightness and the mll to define the CR while failing to account for ANSI along with viewing environment specifics. I would like to hear Kevin Miller, D-Nice, and David McKenzie weigh in on Chad's recent higher brightness revelation, however. It would go some weigh in rendering all these bragging points moot.


LOL

 

So you dont need to see that scoring sheet again and yet you forget what it says about Contrast....hmmm

 

Then you call in for back-up well here you go.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

D-Nice Quote from (CNET calls ZT60 "Best-Performing TV We've Ever Tested" - Page 5 Post #145)

 

"The Samsung would be brighter than the VT/ZT60s if the light output was 30fL, 40fL, or any other light output level based on how the Samsung ABL circuit works compared to the Panasonics. I've calibrated ST60s, which can get much brighter than the VT/ZTs at over 50fL for a "Day" mode and even they are no match for the F8500 @ 50fL."

 

"The goal of Day mode was to have the max light output, without sacrificing accuracy, and a 2.0 gamma. The VT and ZT could not do it in their ISF modes. THX Bright Room can get brighter than the ISF modes. However, the loss in accuracy violates my accuracy work eihics.... and I'm sorry but even THX Bright Room isn't match for the F8500 when it comes to image brightness."

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post #107 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:55 AM
 
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I wasn't calling "in for back-up." That shootout was conducted in May 2013, so let's not assume everything there was to know about calibrating the panel was fully unearthed at that time. I will have to dig up the calibration reports from Chad since you're so insistent.
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post #108 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I would like to hear Kevin Miller, D-Nice, and David McKenzie weigh in on Chad's recent higher brightness revelation, however. It would go some way in rendering some of these bragging points moot (don't worry, you'd still have your ABL and 3D superiority).

I have publicly posted my method for getting an accurate VT/ZT60 series calibration in PB high on the THX Video Tech forum, and I have also shared it with a few DIY calibrators via PM. The method is not intuitive but it works, especially if you have the time and patience to nail it. If the method is not followed, of course the results are not going to be good in PB high because of white crush. The other calibrators mentioned in the above post have not corresponded with me about this, though if they are THX certified they can read it for themselves.
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post #109 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 02:58 AM
 
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Thanks, Chad. While you're here, can you post the calibration report showing what you achieved? If not, I will dig it up from the ZT thread.
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I wasn't calling "in for back-up." That shootout was conducted in May 2013, so let's not assume everything there was to know about calibrating the panel was fully unearthed at that time. I will have to dig up the calibration reports from Chad since you're so insistent.


You just can't stand the Fact that no matter how you change the argument, the Audience still prefers watching a Samsung F8500 over the Panny's VT & ZT models.

 

Because you watch with your Eye's not a Meter.

 

Like I said previously the Panny win's the Expert's Vote but still when a viewing Audience is brought into the mix even with biased information towards the Panny, where they were told that the Panny's beat the Sammy in this or that. The Audience ignored them because they believed their EYE's even more than the Expert Panels Measurements. Perception is a bummer I know I can only imagine how an Impartial Audience would Vote.

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post #111 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:06 AM
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Here are a couple. They may be different from the ones I posted in the ZT thread. I've also done a couple not quite as maxed out, for around 44-47 fL max.
Panasonic65ZT60Pro1day.pdf 1335k .pdf file
Pan65ZT60Pro1.pdf 1358k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf Panasonic65ZT60Pro1day.pdf (1.30 MB, 14 views)
File Type: pdf Pan65ZT60Pro1.pdf (1.33 MB, 10 views)
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post #112 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:09 AM
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The audience primarily liked the brightness of the F8500 over the relative dimness of the VT/ZT60 which were calibrated to a much lower light output than can be achieved now. There are more subtle differences in color saturation as well, but no doubt the brightness was the main difference.
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post #113 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:12 AM
 
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You just can't stand the Fact that no matter how you change the argument, the Audience still prefers watching a Samsung F8500 over the Panny's VT & ZT models.

Because you watch with your Eye's not a Meter.

Like I said previously the Panny win's the Expert's Vote but still when a viewing Audience is brought into the mix even with biased information towards the Panny, where they were told that the Panny's beat the Sammy in this or that. The Audience ignored them because they believed their EYE's even more than the Expert Panels Measurements. Perception is a bummer I know I can only imagine how an Impartial Audience would Vote.
Arguably statistically insignificant, and the average of all ratings is identical without day mode (I guess the audience's eyes lied to them in the dark!). In any case, I demand a recount knowing what we do now thanks to one man's tireless efforts. In the meantime, I am regarding that category as null and void.

And actually, the most revealing test would be one in which the bezels are all covered, making it about as objective as one could get (the identity of which would not be revealed until after the testing is completed).
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post #114 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:17 AM
 
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The audience primarily liked the brightness of the F8500 over the relative dimness of the VT/ZT60 which were calibrated to a much lower light output than can be achieved now. There are more subtle differences in color saturation as well, but no doubt the brightness was the main difference.


And even with the Higher Output you claim to be able to achieve with the Panny's the Samsung still goes higher anyways.

 

Your logic is Flawed because you say that the Sammy only won because it was brighter. 

However the Samsung will Always be Brighter. (62.67ft/L versus 47ft/L claimed by Chad B)

Because even at the same ft/L the ABL Circuitry allows for more headroom.

So again the Audience would still agree that the Samsung F8500 is the choice using your Eye's.

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post #115 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:23 AM
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Here are a couple more, a 60VT60 that hit 54.5 fL and a 65ZT60 done with a milder contrast setting to get 44 fL. BTW, all these were measured with an i1D3 meter profiled off a Jeti 1211 reference spectro on the actual display being measured.

Panasonic65ZT60Pro1day2.pdf 1357k .pdf file
60VT60Pro1brightroom-PBhigh.pdf 1358k .pdf file
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File Type: pdf 60VT60Pro1brightroom-PBhigh.pdf (1.33 MB, 4 views)

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post #116 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post


And even with the Higher Output you claim to be able to achieve with the Panny's the Samsung still goes higher anyways.

Your logic is Flawed because you say that the Sammy only won because it was brighter. 
However the Samsung will Always be Brighter. (62.67ft/L versus 47ft/L claimed by Chad B)
Because even at the same ft/L the ABL Circuitry allows for more headroom.
So again the Audience would still agree that the Samsung F8500 is the choice using your Eye's.
The latest F8500s have not been able to achieve the same high light output as the review sets. I know, because I wrote a review on one that could get in the 80s in CAL_DAY and in the 60s in Movie mode, and then the last half dozen that I've done, using the same methods, have been able to get only in the 50s max in CAL-DAY or Movie.

Whether it was due to a change in manufacturing or a change in FW I don't know, but there has been a drop in max light output on the F8500.

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post #117 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:32 AM
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you manipulate your numbers[/B]
LOL tame down there, big fella! wink.gif

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post #118 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:48 AM
 
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It really is no wonder D-Nice stopped posting here (last post being over 6 months ago on 9/6/13)...
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post #119 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The latest F8500s have not been able to achieve the same high light output as the review sets. I know, because I wrote a review on one that could get in the 80s in CAL_DAY and in the 60s in Movie mode, and then the last half dozen that I've done, using the same methods, have been able to get only in the 50s max in CAL-DAY or Movie.

Whether it was due to a change in manufacturing or a change in FW I don't know, but there has been a drop in max light output on the F8500.

Chad, in your experience, do both your souped up VT60 and The "downgraded in brightness" F8500 still follow similiar ABL white falloff as you've measured in your reviews? Really interested in hearing if any increase or decrease in peak light output have any particular change in rate of change in ABLs.
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post #120 of 274 Old 03-10-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Chad, in your experience, do both your souped up VT60 and The "downgraded in brightness" F8500 still follow similiar ABL white falloff as you've measured in your reviews? Really interested in hearing if any increase or decrease in peak light output have any particular change in impact in certain ABL points.
Unfortunately I have not tested the ABL behavior since the initial reviews. If I have the opportunity I will check that. I know I have an F8500 on the schedule as well as some Pannys.

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