New Display Dilemma - F8500 or VT60 - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

It's OK for the ZT60 fan boys to trash the F8500 but heaven forbid we respond in kind.

To be "totally honest" when I was contemplating buying a new PDP during the latter part of 2013 I waffled back and forth between:

buying a refrigerator sounding ZT60 or a buzzing F8500?

By the time I was ready to pull that proverbial trigger the 65ZT60 wasn't available, which made the decision pretty easy at that point.

The "young pups" are taking this TV nonsense way too seriously. It's just a TV.

You have to admit the idea of using duct tape, a plunger or cutting holes in the rear enclosure of a new PDP is pretty outrageous.

My VT60 is quiet and never had an issue with the fans so I never needed the fix. A lot of people don't have issues just like not every F8500 buzzes. The F8500 I had for a week last year was quiet.

However, seeing my F8500 dissolve into mediocre to poor MLLs for light controlled viewing would be a far bigger issue for me than any fan fix that doesn't affect viewing performance.

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post #212 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 03:46 PM
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Thank you, Chad. You helped me make my final choice.

It's very unfortunate, but now I decided not to purchase the F8500 as my Panasonic S60 replacement. I still feel it's the best product to cover most of my needs, but now, I just don't feel like paying that much. I've decided to purchase the H5000 instead. Unfortunate that I will have to put up with pentile, but at least it beats having to put up with dim pictures of the S60, input lag of the ST60, not too hot black level of the F5300/F5500, and I don't live in the States to have Chad come over to calibrate the VT60 for more brightness. Plus, the price is great on top of it. I will still keep a watch on the F8500, but it will have to be very affordable.
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post #213 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 03:48 PM
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9179 - When it comes to AV equipment how many degrees I have earned or what I do for a living has no impact on whether I can learn something new from a Physicist (no offense Larry), computer programer, doctor or a guy who never finished college and works at McD's.

I don't think any of us are interested in trashing the 8500. It's the best option we have now and as nearly everyone has said on this thread its a darn good display. If the price had been better when I was in the market to replace my Kuro last spring I may have ended up with one, but I wasn't dropping an extra $1k for a display when there are at least 2 other comparable options - the VT60 being the cheaper of those two and I didn't need the filter or brightness offered by the ZT or 8500 for my room. Trust me, if my VT60 had any issues like excessive fan noise or buzzing it would have gone back to BB within my 2 month return window. Self isn't the only OCD buyer on AVS smile.gif

What Chad is learning and Samsung's frequent firmware updates which seem to be causing some owners problems any prospective buyer should be doing their homework by reading these threads. If you feel any better I think you've got a great display and kudos on the IBM job. Your job though does nothing for your credibility on this thread or any other AVS thread.

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post #214 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 05:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

$7200 actually wink.gif
$7800 now.eek.gif
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post #215 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

$7800 now.eek.gif

Walt must be reading this thread and upon seeing Chad's results, raised the prices.

Seriously, if it's $7800 now....you know someone one(s) bought it at $7000!
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post #216 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Archon View Post

Walt must be reading this thread and upon seeing Chad's results, raised the prices.

Seriously, if it's $7800 now....you know someone one(s) bought it at $7000!
I bought it for $7,000. I was hesitant but then he threw in a free wall mount and couldn't resist. Was that a bad deal? It's a good wall mount.

I asked if he would throw in a plunger also but he laughed at me. Guess he didn't think I was serious but I was.
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post #217 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 07:57 PM
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Chad, please tell me you'll be able to come to the SF Bay Area this year, I have a ZT at 150hrs and counting, and would love for you to calibrate it with your high panel brightness magic!

I sure hope to!

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post #218 of 274 Old 03-17-2014, 11:43 PM
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I have an appointment with ChadB in early April to calibrate my 64F8500.

It will be interesting to see what he finds with my panel.

Not the least, because I still (with a January 2014 build, and with the latest firmware) find it to be capable of being VERRRRYYY bright compared my 8G Kuro, or the 2003 Panasonic plasma that preceded my Kuro. As bright as I need. I really have no complaints about the white level, and I have something of an adverse viewing environment.
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post #219 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

$7800 now.eek.gif

I paid $7500 eek.gif for my PRO-150FD during 2007.

I paid less than $3000 for my 64F8500 a couple of weeks ago.

After years of watching so-so HD content w/cable TV and the recent demise of HD/Super HD video streaming from Netflix, I'm not inclined to spend a lot of money for another TV;

unless...

Some 70" - 80" 4K "flat panel" OLED w/full support for HDMI 2.0 and the HVEC H.265 coding specification comes along...

then maybe... however,

my WAF would probably kill me so I wouldn't enjoy watching that OLED anyway.

The neon greens of the PX50U, the gray blacks of the 8th generation Kuro, the infamous CableCARD 1.0/2.0 debacle... I have been down this road before.
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post #220 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 10:19 AM
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Thank you Chad for doing the comparison, and thank you mattquaker for providing F8500 and VT60 for the comparison. It is great to have recent and factual comparison. smile.gif VE Shootout results were great at the time, but things have changed with both F8500 light output drop and the new VT60/ZT60 high panel brightness calibration method that Chad discovered to warrant new comparison.

56 fL light output on F8500 is interesting. I remember reading F8500 reviews where F8500 was hitting light output above 80 fL. Personally, I never found my ZT60 too dim, so 56 fL light output on F8500 is not an issue for me. However, I am no longer sure that F8500 is a better choice than ZT for very bright rooms or for the individual who feels that ZT or VT is too dim because VT, ZT and F8500 light outputs are now quite close, and F8500 black level is inferior to VT and ZT.

I am curious what caused such a dramatic drop in F8500 light output, so these are my theories.

1. Samsung has discovered that high light output is damaging to F8500 or reduces F8500 panel lifespan, so light output cap was put in new firmware.

2. To fight the floating blacks that are being reported, the light output had to be reduced.

3. This is just a temporary issue with F8500 due to error/incompetence, and it will be fixed in a future update.

4. Finally, I have another a more farfetched theory. I recall reading the story where Samsung was caught boosting its phones benchmark test results with special code. Could a similar strategy be at play here? Perhaps, F8500 was never designed to operate long term with high light output, so after F8500s were reviewed by review outlets, the sets were dialed down with new firmware to more reasonable light output levels to avoid damaging F8500.

Regardless, I still think that F8500 is a good set. Considering ZT/VT prices are quickly entering absurd territory, I would still buy F8500 if I was on the market for a new tv, but I am sure glad that I had an opportunity to buy ZT. smile.gif
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post #221 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 01:29 PM
 
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Grabbed prolly the last NIB ZT for a decent price but compared to why they go for now it's not a bad choice after all. 3300$ (3150$ if I could have drove to Boston, but 150$ Is worth having it shipped cuz I don't have the time). My OB I got from best buy totaling 3061$ with tax and warranty is going back. Btw Chris at Cleveland Plasma is awesome...highly recommended if buying a unit. Waiting for delivery and will post my numbers. Knock on wood it arrives pristine. If not I will grab a 8500 cuz I believe the "new" issues are FW related.
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post #222 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Grabbed prolly the last NIB ZT for a decent price but compared to why they go for now it's not a bad choice after all. 3300$ (3150$ if I could have drove to Boston, but 150$ Is worth having it shipped cuz I don't have the time). My OB I got from best buy totaling 3061$ with tax and warranty is going back. Btw Chris at Cleveland Plasma is awesome...highly recommended if buying a unit. Waiting for delivery and will post my numbers. Knock on wood it arrives pristine. If not I will grab a 8500 cuz I believe the "new" issues are FW related.
Dude you are to much.

As far as the F8500, it most likely is firmware related but the problem with that is if Samsung doesn't want to fix it or possibly they have their reasons why they can't, there isn't really anything you can do about it but live with it.

Like SwiftSweeper said, Samsung might have had their reasons why they released it like they did and why it is running the way it is now. Who knows what the long term effects could have been if they left it being able to achieve such high levels of brightness. For the firmware update where they said they fixed floating blacks, it is quite possible they needed to raise the black levels to combat that or make it at least look like they fixed it.

It is anyone's guess at this time but I would love for CNET to re-review this TV with the latest software. This needs to be officially proven and documented somewhere that it will get back to Samsung if these current numbers are true and consistent with all F8500's panels running the latest software.

Does anyone know what the brightness and black levels of the 2012 E8000 plasma were. I am curious how these new numbers line up with their 2012 line.
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post #223 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 02:04 PM
 
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Dude you are to much.

As far as the F8500, it most likely is firmware related but the problem with that is if Samsung doesn't want to fix it or possibly they have their reasons why they can't, there isn't really anything you can do about it but live with it.

Like SwiftSweeper said, Samsung might have had their reasons why they released it like they did and why it is running the way it is now. Who knows what the long term effects could have been if they left it being able to achieve such high levels of brightness. For the firmware update where they said they fixed floating blacks, it is quite possible they needed to raise the black levels to combat that or make it at least look like they fixed it.

It is anyone's guess at this time but I would love for CNET to re-review this TV with the latest software. This needs to be officially proven and documented somewhere that it will get back to Samsung if these current numbers are true and consistent with all F8500's panels running the latest software.

Does anyone know what the brightness and black levels of the 2012 E8000 plasma were. I am curious how these new numbers line up with their 2012 line.

I know lol.

Anyway, Sammy always doing something confusing
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post #224 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 03:06 PM
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So, could anyone summarize what we have learnt the last couple of days with regards to F8500 vs VT60/ZT60. Has all F8500s gone down the drain or are we just talking of calibrated F8500s? Or just Chad B calibrated F8500s? And what about the Panasonics, have they all become brighter? Or just the calibrated ones? Or just the Chad B calibrated ones? Absolutely no disrespect intended here Chad B - just trying to get a feeling for what was actually achieved and what wasn't, which is kind of hard when something like 80% of the posts are flamewars and personal insults.
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post #225 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by improwise View Post

So, could anyone summarize what we have learnt the last couple of days with regards to F8500 vs VT60/ZT60. Has all F8500s gone down the drain or are we just talking of calibrated F8500s? Or just Chad B calibrated F8500s? And what about the Panasonics, have they all become brighter? Or just the calibrated ones? Or just the Chad B calibrated ones? Absolutely no disrespect intended here Chad B - just trying to get a feeling for what was actually achieved and what wasn't, which is kind of hard when something like 80% of the posts are flamewars and personal insults.
My guess is a non calibrated F8500 would have worse blacks or crushing blacks if it were to get a better reading.

The brightness of the ZT60 is done with the panel in high which Chad has learned how to calibrate correctly with that setting. So nothing has changed with those panels. As far as other calibrators and F8500, I have not seen anyone else report on them and wish we were able to get other pro's report their findings.
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post #226 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 06:41 PM
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Chad, just did a quick calman run on the day mode on my F8500 and it seems black optimizer "auto" gives the lower blacks of the "dark" setting with the extra brightness of the "bright" mode. I'm getting 0.0037 FtL on full black screen and 52.17 on 100% white on 10% windows on "auto". Maybe you could do some testing with this on future panels. I'll do a write up about chad's visit, but he is a treat to work with. He spent almost nine hours at the house this past Sunday. I hope he enjoyed his drive down to the keys. Interestingly and fortunately enough for me the perfect white balance and color remained unchanged when I changed from "bright" to "auto". I'll check movie mode during second intermission of flyers game.
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post #227 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattquaker View Post

Chad, just did a quick calman run on the day mode on my F8500 and it seems black optimizer "auto" gives the lower blacks of the "dark" setting with the extra brightness of the "bright" mode. I'm getting 0.0037 FtL on full black screen and 52.17 on 100% white on 10% windows on "auto". Maybe you could do some testing with this on future panels. I'll do a write up about chad's visit, but he is a treat to work with. He spent almost nine hours at the house this past Sunday. I hope he enjoyed his drive down to the keys. Interestingly and fortunately enough for me the perfect white balance and color remained unchanged when I changed from "bright" to "auto". I'll check movie mode during second intermission of flyers game.

Can I ask what firmware version you are on?
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post #228 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 07:44 PM
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post #229 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by improwise View Post

So, could anyone summarize what we have learnt the last couple of days with regards to F8500 vs VT60/ZT60. Has all F8500s gone down the drain or are we just talking of calibrated F8500s? Or just Chad B calibrated F8500s? And what about the Panasonics, have they all become brighter? Or just the calibrated ones? Or just the Chad B calibrated ones? Absolutely no disrespect intended here Chad B - just trying to get a feeling for what was actually achieved and what wasn't, which is kind of hard when something like 80% of the posts are flamewars and personal insults.

It is suspected that a firmware release has altered the black levels and max light output for the 8500. Speculation for now, but it seems possible given Samsung's track record.
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post #230 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 07:56 PM
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It is suspected that a firmware release has altered the black levels and max light output for the 8500. Speculation for now, but it seems possible given Samsung's track record.
And then the question is purposely or accidentally.
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post #231 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 07:58 PM
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Also, chad b can get the vt60 as bright as the f8500, but the ABL of the vT60 keeps it from being as good with high apl images, such as hockey. For example, the brightness of my screen watching a hockey right now is equal with the day and night mode of the vt60, even with chads calibration of the day mode to 50 FtL. That is not the case on the f8500, where the screen stays significantly brighter.
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post #232 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattquaker View Post

Also, chad b can get the vt60 as bright as the f8500, but the ABL of the vT60 keeps it from being as good with high apl images, such as hockey. For example, the brightness of my screen watching a hockey right now is equal with the day and night mode of the vt60, even with chads calibration of the day mode to 50 FtL. That is not the case on the f8500, where the screen stays significantly brighter.

Do you know what your Ftl was before the calibration?
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post #233 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:04 PM
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It's about 36-37 before he changed it to high panel brightness.
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post #234 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:08 PM
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It's about 36-37 before he changed it to high panel brightness.
So I assume it is noticeably better for daytime viewing? How much brighter and better does it appear then the THX bright room? Is the F8500 still noticeably brighter during the day or would it now be more on an equal playing field except for high apl screens of course.
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post #235 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattquaker View Post

Chad, just did a quick calman run on the day mode on my F8500 and it seems black optimizer "auto" gives the lower blacks of the "dark" setting with the extra brightness of the "bright" mode. I'm getting 0.0037 FtL on full black screen and 52.17 on 100% white on 10% windows on "auto". Maybe you could do some testing with this on future panels. I'll do a write up about chad's visit, but he is a treat to work with. He spent almost nine hours at the house this past Sunday. I hope he enjoyed his drive down to the keys. Interestingly and fortunately enough for me the perfect white balance and color remained unchanged when I changed from "bright" to "auto". I'll check movie mode during second intermission of flyers game.

Matt, would it be safe to assume then that all of Chad's recent "issues" can be corrected simply by adjusting settings, or are there still issues that cannot be worked around?
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post #236 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:19 PM
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It's certainly looks less washed out and more accurate than thx cinema. The room I have my vt60 in isn't as bright as the one I have my f8500 in, but I think it's safe to say I would agree that the f8500 has a better picture In a bright or moderately lit room because of the less drastic ABL. Both TV's are great.
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post #237 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:27 PM
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Are your black levels better now than when Chad was there? How close to blending into the bezel can they get?

Thanks.
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post #238 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:36 PM
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Chad was here Sunday and black levels are the same for both tv's. I just did some measurements with BO on the F8500 set to auto, which seemed to help the black level with a completely black screen of the tv without sacrificing ftl, at least according to the measurements. There's no visible difference. Originally, Chad had set to bright room in order to get more brightness out of the set. My original post asked him to check future sets of he finds the same.
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post #239 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:41 PM
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Matt, that is EXCELLENT NEWS. Thank you very much smile.gif

John

PS Do you have anything on your F8500 "wish list" now?
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post #240 of 274 Old 03-18-2014, 08:42 PM
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Black levels are definitely worse, or at least measure worse, then when I first got the F8500. Again, the TV is wonderful. We put in dark knight and the shadow detail and black looked wonderful. Maybe to a discerning eye in a bat cave, someone may be able to see slightly higher then ideal black levels, but the tv is great and better then my vt in a bright or moderately lit room. Both sets are keepers.
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