Samsung F8500 Owners - Do You Experience Floating Blacks? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: Do You or Have You Ever Seen Floating Blacks on an F8500?
Yes, I see floating blacks and I am using the current firmware version. I would say that they can occur several times during the course of a typical film or TV show. 1 2.56%
Yes, I see floating blacks and I am using the current firmware version. I would say that they only occur in very rare cases; perhaps once or twice during the course of a typical film at most. 0 0%
Yes, I see floating blacks but I have not yet updated to the current firmware version. 2 5.13%
No, I used to see floating blacks, but it is clear that they have since been fixed due to a firmware update or other reason (please explain). 2 5.13%
No, I have never seen floating blacks, but I haven't gone to the trouble to seek them out. 19 48.72%
No, I have never seen floating blacks, and I have performed testing in an effort to seek them out, and they're simply not there to any noticeable degree. 15 38.46%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-19-2014, 11:03 AM
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I doubt Samsung will do anything more to resolve the issue. The higher blacks are likely to stay to compensate for the pops and floating blacks. With the F8500 being discontinued, no more sources will be allocated to solve a problem Samsung now deems "fixed". Sure we will still get FW updates, but those will probably be for the smarthub. Probably why the new F8500's come with FW1200, and no updates from 1120 to 1200 have been sent to the older F8500's. The new FW likely had no upgrades of anything useful for the F8500.
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
The good news is that the floating black problem with the 8500 has by and large been eliminated. The bad news is that the PQ of the set is no longer what it quite was.

If you look at how well it still stacks up against the current competition, however, it is by no means a featherweight.

What really puzzles me is how/why the issue is supposedly non-existent on the H5000 but could not be totally fixed with firmware on the 8500.
My guess is floating blacks do exist in the H5000, but that is a different panel which uses pentile matrix (ugh). If cost isn't a factor, I would still rather have the F8500 or 51"/64" F5300.

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Old 08-19-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post
The good news is that the floating black problem with the 8500 has by and large been eliminated. The bad news is that the PQ of the set is no longer what it quite was.

If you look at how well it still stacks up against the current competition, however, it is by no means a featherweight.

What really puzzles me is how/why the issue is supposedly non-existent on the H5000 but could not be totally fixed with firmware on the 8500.
let's not get too carried away here spreading this around...


if the fw did in fact do this, it did it 6, 7, maybe even as much as 14 months ago. we've been promised a solution to floating blacks since about fw 1008. what's my point? my point is we've been living with the 'decreased' pq for as much as a year already. for most ppl the 'decreased' quality is all they've ever known, and was still plenty good enough to persuade them to buy the display.


so let's not start too much of a fuss just because d-nice 'confirmed' a fw change that happened a long time ago. if this wasn't a huge deal 6months ago, there's no reason it should be a huge deal now...
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:25 PM
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And even with the changes the son of a gun is still the 2014 shoot out champ.
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Perhaps I misremembered.

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Old 08-19-2014, 04:36 PM
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And even with the changes the son of a gun is still the 2014 shoot out champ.
It is a good tv, and I own it, but D-Nice did say in the shootout thread, that it was not even close to OLED when it came to blacks and contrast, which to me are the most important. I would like to see where the experts placed it, and not the general audience poll.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
It is a good tv, and I own it, but D-Nice did say in the shootout thread, that it was not even close to OLED when it came to blacks and contrast, which to me are the most important. I would like to see where the experts placed it, and not the general audience poll.
yup, and that's awesome to hear.


if something that's been considered 'excellent' can be trounced that badly, makes me excited for oled!


the thing is though, oled doesn't make the f8500 any worse. it's the same tv it was before the shootout. that comment should be taken as a knock against the f8500, but as a strong recommendation to the oled technology


from what I've been hearing, and putting my own weighting on the calibrator's comments/selection vs the general public, I feel like the f8500 is solidly in third place this year, behind both oleds.


even looking at what each tv was good at in the posted results, the oleds did way better in blacks and contrast. I've honestly never seen a tv that had color that annoyed me(so I personally find that of less importance), and I honestly feel like the f8500 has pretty terrible motion resolution anyway, so again, the fact it 'won' that category doesn't impress me so much.


I'm very glad I own the f8500, I fully believe it's going to last me until I WANT to buy a new tv(which will most definitely be oled I hope) but it's just reassuring to see a new tech that can actually beat plasma. there was definitely a few months where I think we we're all checking to see if we could fit a spare tv or two in our closets so we never had to watch movies on edgelit led/lcds
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
My guess is that they built in the fix learned from the F8500 into the H5000 unless they changed the Panel driving technology which is doubtful. No doubt the F8500 stands well above the rest of the competition excluding OLED.
H5000 measures lower blacks (.0016fL) than F8500 post firmware (.0025fL).
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hasn't Chad B stated that he's measured some post-FW F8500s that boasted the MLL and luminance performance of the original panels? If that's true, it doesn't sound like the variance is totally firmware related.


Has anyone taken measurements before and after a firmware update? Hard evidence as to exactly what's going on seems to be scarce...
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
Hasn't Chad B stated that he's measured some post-FW F8500s that boasted the MLL and luminance performance of the original panels? If that's true, it doesn't sound like the variance is totally firmware related.


Has anyone taken measurements before and after a firmware update? Hard evidence as to exactly what's going on seems to be scarce...
I know back in june, or last year, there was a fw that had a lot of ppl complaining about higher blacks and a dimmer image. I was a little scared to do it and put it off until I'd heard several ppl who said it looked fine afterwards.


for my own interest, I set up my camera and took before/after shots using the same settings. what I saw was identical before and after. definitely not super accurate, but technically scientific, haha.


then again, there's been about 7 fw updates since then where ppl have made similar claims, and I've noticed no change again. so I don't even really know which fw exactly we should be talking about.

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Old 04-07-2015, 12:21 AM
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Hi to all,
sorry if I exhume an old topic, but I've bought one of the last units of 51F8500 a couple of months ago and I have a question: I dunno what you exactly mean with floating blacks, but my unit has a very annoying "feature" that can be perhaps what you call floating black.
Well this is it: when i'm watching a show, if there is a very bright scene and suddenly after a very dark one, I see "gray" blacks for about 1-2 seconds, then my panel goes down to correct black levels. I would not be annoyed so much if the black level would go up during bright scenes, but returned down as soon as the dark scene begins. It's the delay that annoyes me! I can clearly see this during many shows, so i'd be the first option on the poll. The strangest thing is that this behaviour occurs even with black optimizer off, to say the truth to my eyes looks like that option having no effect, even if I select "bright room" in a dark room...

I live in Europe and have the latest firmware (well, actually now there is a newer one, i have the february 2015 one) have asked to some other guys (but they have the 64" model) if they see same thing in the same scenes, and they did not, and even a sort of fight started on this topic... I ask to you: Do you think my panel is defective? Should I call Samsung for a behaviour so strange and difficult to show and diagnose?

Thanks a lot for any reply.
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Python357 View Post
Hi to all,
sorry if I exhume an old topic, but I've bought one of the last units of 51F8500 a couple of months ago and I have a question: I dunno what you exactly mean with floating blacks, but my unit has a very annoying "feature" that can be perhaps what you call floating black.
Well this is it: when i'm watching a show, if there is a very bright scene and suddenly after a very dark one, I see "gray" blacks for about 1-2 seconds, then my panel goes down to correct black levels. I would not be annoyed so much if the black level would go up during bright scenes, but returned down as soon as the dark scene begins. It's the delay that annoyes me! I can clearly see this during many shows, so i'd be the first option on the poll. The strangest thing is that this behaviour occurs even with black optimizer off, to say the truth to my eyes looks like that option having no effect, even if I select "bright room" in a dark room...

I live in Europe and have the latest firmware (well, actually now there is a newer one, i have the february 2015 one) have asked to some other guys (but they have the 64" model) if they see same thing in the same scenes, and they did not, and even a sort of fight started on this topic... I ask to you: Do you think my panel is defective? Should I call Samsung for a behaviour so strange and difficult to show and diagnose?

Thanks a lot for any reply.
On my TV (I have the 64" model), I have similar super-duper-dark gray (near black) blacks. And like what you have seen, this effect is typically noticed during a fade to black (or even a sudden black). If the screen is completely black for about 1/2 - 3/4ths of a second, the screen turns completely "off" until there is signal again. I think what you are seeing is the black when the phosphors to the screen are "on" versus the black when they shut "off". This isn't the same as floating blacks. The best way to see floating blacks is while watching a letterbox movie and the area of the letterbox becomes darker or brighter depending on the brightness of the content being displayed. The letterboxing should maintain the same consistent brightness. Floating blacks do not effect just the letterbox area. You could see a scene that is primarily dark, and objects along the shadows of the scene can vary in brightness during one take. Ironically, this isn't as easily noticed because often the camera is moving and because of that this problem is "masked" and not really noticed. But the letterboxing is ALWAYS there and because you expect the same level of blacks 100% of the time it raises an eyebrow once you see it (if you see it).

From my understanding, this is an issue more with LCD televisions than plasma TV's. I haven't noticed it with my set so far, but at the same time I haven't gone out of my way to look for it. It's one of those things that once you see it, it can never be undone.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:57 PM
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Really not floating blacks per se on the letterbox bars. What you are seeing is the true black level of the tv in dark scenes. They will appear grey black as opposed to inky black. It's a trick of the eye when the black bars in bright scenes look inky black. The brighter scenes cause your pupils to contract thus making blacks look deep. That why they say use ambient lighting to give a greater sense of contrast. Ambient lightning helps overcome poor blacks.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:13 AM
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Thanks for your replies.
Ok, now I understood clearly what is floating black. Unfortunately I see a different behaviour in the transition Bright scene - dark scene, typically if at the end of a movie there is a bright scene and suddenly after end titles (on black background). In the first 1 - 1,5 seconds the end title will be surrounded by a grey background and then the gray will become a nice "black". Looks like my panel is "slow" in analyzing image and "decide" it must push the black because the image is mostly black. It's not the panel turning off after a while because I clearly see when it turns off (totally black instead of dark grey) and, as I told before, the strange behaviour happens also with a white title displaying on the screen, so the panel cannot be off. So, do I have to conclude my panel is defective?
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:41 AM
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Really not floating blacks per se on the letterbox bars. What you are seeing is the true black level of the tv in dark scenes. They will appear grey black as opposed to inky black. It's a trick of the eye when the black bars in bright scenes look inky black. The brighter scenes cause your pupils to contract thus making blacks look deep. That why they say use ambient lighting to give a greater sense of contrast. Ambient lightning helps overcome poor blacks.
I wasn't referring to the effect where the black bars appear darker during bright scenes (pupil constricts causing the blacks to falsely appear darker). I'm saying during a scene that is overall dark, and there are subtle changes in the brightness you can possibly see (on some TV's) the areas that are black slightly get brighter as the scene changes. Often, as the scene gets SUBTLE brighter the blacks also change a little brighter. Keep in mind the scene isn't bright enough to cause pupil constriction (and blacks to appear darker). I'm talking about the opposite (floating blacks).

I actually prefer a little bit of ambient light to counteract the somewhat painful eye fatigue that happens when a scene goes from dark to really bright. Funny thing is... when I first got the TV it wasn't that bad. I could watch a movie in complete darkness. But now, there are times that I need to actually squint like I'm looking at the sun (lol), and my cell light is only at 17. Often, I make sure there is a little bit of ambient light and sometimes bring down my cell light to 14. It helps a little, but doesn't remove it completely. I haven't invested in LED lights to spotlight on the back of the TV yet. I have read having this kind of light helps keep the pupil from being dilated too much throughout the movie, so when a scene suddenly turns bright it's not a huge adjustment for your eye to make.
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Old 04-08-2015, 06:47 AM
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p.s. wxman...

Is there any way to turn off the "shut off" effect? I'm talking about when the TV detects the entire screen is dark and a fraction of a second later decides to shut off the phosphors - making the screen completely black before picture signal returns? It would be better if the processing speed in doing this was either so fast (like a millisecond) where the viewer doesn't notice or not at all and we see the "super-duper-dark gray" blacks versus 100% pure black. I guess I could lower the brightness setting to make this effect invisible, but when I went through the calibration process it was evident this would be the best setting to ensure details in the shadows do not get lost.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:21 AM
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I find a backlight (6500) whether an IdeaLume, LED array, etc. helps give balanced field that is easy on the eyes, and maybe reduces or masks some lesser artifacts.

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Old 04-08-2015, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeInSky1970 View Post
p.s. wxman...

Is there any way to turn off the "shut off" effect? I'm talking about when the TV detects the entire screen is dark and a fraction of a second later decides to shut off the phosphors - making the screen completely black before picture signal returns? It would be better if the processing speed in doing this was either so fast (like a millisecond) where the viewer doesn't notice or not at all and we see the "super-duper-dark gray" blacks versus 100% pure black. I guess I could lower the brightness setting to make this effect invisible, but when I went through the calibration process it was evident this would be the best setting to ensure details in the shadows do not get lost.
Thanks for explanation in your previous post about the letterbox bars. Sorry for my confusion. There isn't a way to defeat the black screen when the tv detects no signal. I haven't noticed it very often, or perhaps I have got used to it. I did try LED light on ther back of tv, even the ones that you could dim. If your tv is calibrated, it will throw off the calibration as LED lights are too cool. Cast a blueish hue instead of 65K white. of course there are other factors too, such as the color of the wall behind the tv. Even perfect 65K ambient lights behind tv will be thrown off if the color of the wall behind tv are wrong.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:05 AM
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Thanks for your replies.
Ok, now I understood clearly what is floating black. Unfortunately I see a different behaviour in the transition Bright scene - dark scene, typically if at the end of a movie there is a bright scene and suddenly after end titles (on black background). In the first 1 - 1,5 seconds the end title will be surrounded by a grey background and then the gray will become a nice "black". Looks like my panel is "slow" in analyzing image and "decide" it must push the black because the image is mostly black. It's not the panel turning off after a while because I clearly see when it turns off (totally black instead of dark grey) and, as I told before, the strange behaviour happens also with a white title displaying on the screen, so the panel cannot be off. So, do I have to conclude my panel is defective?
Is there anyone who can advice on my problem or has ever seen it? (we can call it "ramping blacks" or "delay in reaching black" )
Can it be because my panel has less than 300hours?
thanks

P.s.: i don't see how lowering brightness could mitigate the discontinuity between highest black possible by panel and turned off panel. Only a 0-ftl panel could do this
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:54 AM
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This is typical behavior for samsung plasmas, there is a transition from minimum black to roughly 2-3x (and even up to 5x) minimum depending on average scene luminance. The transition takes 1-2 seconds and there is no way to alter this behavior. Some measurements of the effect for recent models are shown here.
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:43 AM
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This is typical behavior for samsung plasmas, there is a transition from minimum black to roughly 2-3x (and even up to 5x) minimum depending on average scene luminance. The transition takes 1-2 seconds and there is no way to alter this behavior. Some measurements of the effect for recent models are shown here.
Good stuff Zoyd
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Old 04-09-2015, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
. If your tv is calibrated, it will throw off the calibration as LED lights are too cool. Cast a blueish hue instead of 65K white. of course there are other factors too, such as the color of the wall behind the tv. Even perfect 65K ambient lights behind tv will be thrown off if the color of the wall behind tv are wrong.
I don't see how a bluish light would help if LED light is already too cool.
What little difference (to my eyes) there may be is worth the reduction in eyestrain.
A perfectly calibrated screen with no ambient lighting may be ideal if not practical.
A backlight that is close to 6500K would seem superior to any other kind of ambient lighting.

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Old 04-09-2015, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeInSky1970 View Post
p.s. wxman...

Is there any way to turn off the "shut off" effect? I'm talking about when the TV detects the entire screen is dark and a fraction of a second later decides to shut off the phosphors - making the screen completely black before picture signal returns?
If you are using movie mode with the brightness set correctly and not too low, the pixels will never shut off like that.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you are using movie mode with the brightness set correctly and not too low, the pixels will never shut off like that.
Hello Zoyd,

I'm pretty sure I have been using "standard" mode all along. When I set the calibration settings for brightness, color, sharpness, and contrast I just took it from the base setting on standard and went from there.

Thanks for the tip on this! I think I will do a test to see if that happens in "movie" mode or not. It sounds like there's more going on with the presets than just color & contrast levels. I'm starting to think there may be other hidden "easter eggs" within the processing as well that may have gone under the radar.

For instance... I'm also wondering if the stuttering problem might go away (using Cinema Smooth) if I'm in movie mode vs. standard mode. It took me a long time to resolve the stuttering issue, but in the end I forced the blu-ray player to display in 60p instead of 24p (even in film content), and disabled the wonderful cinema smooth. Cinema smooth does an AMAZING job against judder without the SOE, but the occasional stutters were too much to handle. I decided I would rather see judder than the glitchy stutter problem.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:28 AM
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I don't think movie mode will solve your cinema smooth/stuttering problem but go ahead and give it a try. The main disadvantage of movie mode is the peak white level is about a factor of two less than standard mode.
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Old 04-09-2015, 01:11 PM
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I don't think movie mode will solve your cinema smooth/stuttering problem but go ahead and give it a try. The main disadvantage of movie mode is the peak white level is about a factor of two less than standard mode.
Well, on the plus side maybe the movie mode might reduce eye fatigue on the brighter scenes. This has been happening to some degree lately while watching in a dark room. Dropping the cell light to 14 and turning on soft/low ambient light helps a little bit - but probably not as much as having a brighter light source behind the television against the back wall.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:01 PM
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Movie mode....turn of all eco and dynamic contrast etc. Run the cell light in the 15 range. I don't see anything that looks like floating blacks 'or 'black delay'. I have the 51F8500.


As far as Cinema Smooth goes I've gone back and forth on it. I see occasional flicker with it and I see stutters as well from time to time. The picture just seems 'unstable' for lack of a better term. I honestly may end up teaching myself to put up with the Motion Judder Canceller set to Standard. It does really make the picture detail in blu-rays pop and this may end up being a trade off I can live with despite the SOE.

Living room: Sony 60NX720, Yamaha RX-V673, NHT Super One/Zero w/Ten Sub, Panasonic BDT230.
Current Man Cave: Samsung PN51F8500, Vizio S4251w-B4, Sony BDP-S5100, Darbee Darblet.
Future Man Cave: Sony VPL-HW40ES, Monoprice 106" Multi-Format Fixed Frame (Never again!).
Displays calibrated with HCFR, i1DisplayPro, and Colormunki Photo.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Movie mode....turn of all eco and dynamic contrast etc. Run the cell light in the 15 range. I don't see anything that looks like floating blacks 'or 'black delay'. I have the 51F8500.

It's very rare that I notice it and only on a fade to a completely black image during night viewing. If you set the black optimizer off or to bright room you'll never see it.
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Old 04-10-2015, 12:28 AM
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It's very rare that I notice it and only on a fade to a completely black image during night viewing. If you set the black optimizer off or to bright room you'll never see it.
Hi Zoyd,
the problem is I notice the delay black also with BO off or bright room! My panel has less than 300hrs, can be this? Can it have something to do with "apc speed" ?
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