So I missed out on the Panasonic goodness: Does this mean bye-bye Plasmas, hello LCDs? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 03-01-2014, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I own a 51" or 52" 720 Samsung Plasma I bought for $500 a couple years ago and I've recently started thinking about upgrading to a 1080p TV.

I had been holding out for an OLED TV (remember when they were supposed to be right around the corner back in 2011? Yeah right! THANKS A LOT OBAMA!) but clearly, they are never going to happen, just like a second moon landing.

I'm not in a hurry, I can wait until the end of this year or the beginning of the next, but not much longer I reckon. My stupid Samsung TV buzzes and annoys me.

So what should I do? my budget will be $2k or less. The size will have to be 55"+ and I very much doubt 4k TVs will be interesting or affordable by then.

I will be using it for gaming (so latency is an issue) and TV/Movies in 1080p, most likely. I don't give a flying f**k about 3D, speakers or smart TV nonsense. (3D will be best served in VR, I will provide the smarts and I have a receiver with decent 5.1 speakers, thank you very much!)

What is your wise advice? I am all ears.

Edit: I found a used, 7-month old TC-P60S60 on craigslist for $850.

Good deal? I'm tempted.
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post #2 of 39 Old 03-01-2014, 12:54 PM
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OLED is out there already. You can go to any BB and buy one and they will ship from one of their Magnolia stores. May not be in your price range, but they are out there. The LG can be had for about $6000 from a few online vendors. Just because YOU can't afford one, doesn't mean they don't exist. I highly doubt the president had anything to do with them not being available in 2011. The reason why they were not available is because the panels in test production had over a 50% fail rate.
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post #3 of 39 Old 03-01-2014, 12:56 PM
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since you mentioned you can wait, you should. see what plasmas Samsung releases in the near future. I'm sure the prices of the 8500 will drop maybe allowing you to get a 64" in the 2k neighborhood if nothing from 2014 is to your liking
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post #4 of 39 Old 03-01-2014, 01:09 PM
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Since you said that you game, that changes my recommendation completely.

I will have to rule out the Panasonic ST60 first. An excellent display that's only marred by high input lag.

I'm currently using the Panasonic S60. It also has excellent black level and the lowest input lag of all 2013 plasmas, but its motion performance is not particularly strong and its ABL is very aggressive. Look out for the open box ones, I'm sure you can still find one.

If you want one that's still in production, you can also go with the Samsung F5300/F5500. It also has good input lag, but also has better motion resolution and ABL than the S60. It's only downer against the S60 is its black level. (It's not that the Samsung's are bad, it's just that the Panny is so much better) I do consider the Samsung more rounded for gaming purposes than the S60, but I still went with the S60 because I wanted to watch movies too. (Something that the S60 truly excel)

I'm personally waiting for the supposed Samsung F8500 refresh called the H7000. The F8500's input lag is also on a high-ish side like the ST60, but I'm hoping the H7000 with its downgraded processor can bring down input lag. There are also an F5300 refresh called the H5000 coming next week. We don't have input lag number for this display yet, so I'm watching out patiently.
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post #5 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 04:40 AM
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@Gozu

RE: "(It's not that the Samsung's are bad, it's just that the Panny is so much better)"

That is a blatantly false & misleading statement & is not based on any factual specs or stated by any reviewers or tests.
Read what the experts themselves wrote, to get the truth, so you are best served in your quest & go & look at some in stores...

BUT - As Panny plasmas (RIP) are no longer made & 2013 models are $$$ & scarce - so even that is a moot point & no longer applies.


Effectively the Panny only beat (past tense) the Sammy in Black Levels by a VERY small margin, & in pitch black rooms.
The F8500s beat the Panny in other regards.
The F8500s & the new 2014 Sammy equivalents are/will be readily available.

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post #6 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougofthenorth View Post


Effectively the Panny only beat (past tense) the Sammy in Black Levels by a VERY small margin, & in pitch black rooms.
You will actually get better blacks on a VT60/ZT60 when you introduce light into the room as a pitch black room will show glow to a pure black screen. Add some light to the room and you will then get inky blacks.

Where you won't get best performance from a VT60 is in a sunlit room! Once you remove sun from your room you will have an outstanding picture even with your lights on! The high brightness level of the F8500 is only important in a sunlit room. Once you remove the sun and natural daylight from the equation those high brightness levels mean squat.

The ZT60 will handle a sun lit room much better then the VT60, but again once the sun sets you will be looking at a very similar picture between the VT60 and ZT60. Both look outstanding in a room even with lights on or dimmed.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO WATCH IN A PITCH BLACK ROOM TO ENJOY AND GET THE MOST OUT OF A VT60/ZT60 AND IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE IN A PICTCH BLACK ROOM TO BEAT THE F8500 IN BLACK LEVELS!!!!


Oh, and if you look at the expert votes from the 2013 HD Shootout, the Samsung only scored higher in the brightness category. Every other category went to the VT60/ZT60.

Most of the review sites also chose the Panasonic's with Sound and Vision naming the ZT60 the TV of the year.

So yeah, there is just cause when people say the Panasonic TV's this year are one of the best TV's ever made but the F8500 is also up there as one of the best as well.
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post #7 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post



YOU DO NOT NEED TO WATCH IN A PITCH BLACK ROOM TO ENJOY AND GET THE MOST OUT OF A VT60/ZT60 AND IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE IN A PICTCH BLACK ROOM TO BEAT THE F8500 IN BLACK LEVELS!!!!

The F8500s were better in sunlit rooms & also with room lights on (screen filters/brightness)

90% of most reviews put the sets pretty even & quite a few preferred the Sammy overall for the better Smart features & certain other strengths
The F8500s are even upgradable with the plugin module

- 1 or 2 studies mean zilch to me

Anyway - I'm done with this as there are 16,000+ posts in 3 other topics that caused quite a kerfuffle by Pani owners railing against F8500 owners
Strangely I didn't see the Sammy owners going into Pani threads posting hundreds of posts bashing Panis??

& besides Pani - is essentially over for new post 2013 plasma buyers so it's a dead issue...

So to best serve & to be honest to the original poster in this thread, he can read reviews & get the facts posted here, of actual TVs he can purchase not ones he could have purchased...

BTW I originally objected to the statement of MUCH BETTER which is NOT true

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post #8 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 07:12 AM
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Oled are available of course at a 7 grand price its too much , i own pioneer elite 9g(2008) panasonic px75u (2007) and a samsung 60" 5300 .(2014)

and imo samsungs are better in terms of the gaming because ir gets removed alot quicker then its panasonic counterpart .better colors . but not as good black levels as the panny.

also in input lag samsung plasma are quicker then the panasonic plasma.

and for none of my plasma buzz. it seems to me that you could have a very bright picture?

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post #9 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 08:29 AM
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The option to buy an affordable, BIG screen OLED still has a few more years to go. Not only will OLEDs offer large screens but will also support 4K/8K UHD resolution. The HVEC codec's and HDMI 2.0 spec's. to support UHD are still evolving so I guess it is a good thing most individuals can't afford to buy an OLED just yet.

I purchased a PN64F8500 yesterday to supplant my perfectly fine PRO-150FD. This should tide my display needs over until truly large (65"+) flat-screen, affordable OLEDs are available.

Although anticipated to cost less I bought the F8500 now versus the next generation Samsung PDP because the image rendered should remain essentially the same while all the smart features, 3D capability will be removed.

Also, my impression is the bezel/stand may not be as ascetically appealing. Normally one does not get more TV by paying less.
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post #10 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

You will actually get better blacks on a VT60/ZT60 when you introduce light into the room as a pitch black room will show glow to a pure black screen. Add some light to the room and you will then get inky blacks.

the same thing happens with the f8500. add a bit of light, and the blacks look perfect. so the only time panny's look blacker is with the lights completely off. but as you mentioned, that's not really ideal for the panny's either. that's why many ppl don't care as much about the panny's slightly better black levels

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post #11 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 09:31 AM
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i just came from a 2008 Panasonic PZ80 to a F8500. It is a considerable upgrade. I game on it quite a bit (not online though) and have zero issues with lag with game mode on. It seems latest Firmware have addressed most of the issues with this panel. Its really a nice TV, blacks are fantastic, and the extra brightness is there if you need it. It does have an aggressive anti-glare film on it that effects vertical viewing angles so you should see it in person first.

If I could have found a VT, I probably would have gotten it. Just because I have had 3 previous Panasonics and like their pq. That being said, Panasonic is not without their own issues either. I do not think anyone could go wrong with any of these top plasma's.
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post #12 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 09:33 AM
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the same thing happens with the f8500. add a bit of light, and the blacks look perfect. so the only time panny's look blacker is with the lights completely off. but as you mentioned, that's not really ideal for the panny's either. that's why many ppl don't care as much about the panny's slightly better black levels
My point was the Panny's look good with lights on contrary to what Sasmung owners continue to post about having to view it in a cave which is 100% not true.

If you do turn the lights completely off at night which some people will do, the Panasonic's will produce better blacks. I did not say it wasn't ideal to watch in the dark as the picture will still be amazing but add some light to the room and picture continues to amaze. In all honestly, do we really need a pure black screen to look off anyway? The black levels and shadow details will be more important when their is content on the screen, not when you are only looking at a black screen anyway.

If you want great looking blacks in a well lit room, a good Samsung LED can even produce that. My Sasmung es7500 during the daytime would give inky blacks but the pq still cannot match that of the VT60 or an F8500 for that matter. No one in the plasma section is running out to by an LED because of the great daytime blacks which the lighter the room, the blacker blacks on those.

Each TV has their strengths and weaknesses but can you really go wrong with either one considering the other choices out there? It just seems like Samsung owners continue to down the Panasonic line like they have something to prove. It is a great TV and doesn't always need to be compared to the Panasonic's. If you are going to compare then you better expect a Panasonic owner to step in when things are being posted that is completely not true.

Then people ask why Samsung owners don't post in the Pansonic threads. Simple, Panasonic owners don't sit their and compare their TV's to the F8500 and spew BS about it. Actually the F8500 rarely gets mentioned so their is nothing for an F8500 owner to refute. If the F8500 does get mentioned in a Panasonic thread, it is usually because it is being recommended to a person because of their required use. Way different then what goes on in the Samsung threads.

I am not pointing a finger at you but just general speaking from what I see on this site.
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post #13 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

OLED is out there already. You can go to any BB and buy one and they will ship from one of their Magnolia stores. May not be in your price range, but they are out there. The LG can be had for about $6000 from a few online vendors. Just because YOU can't afford one, doesn't mean they don't exist. I highly doubt the president had anything to do with them not being available in 2011. The reason why they were not available is because the panels in test production had over a 50% fail rate.

You made me laugh. biggrin.gif

First of all, thank you for the polite and factual answer. You are absolutely, 100% right.

Second, I meant that I was hoping for Oleds in 2014 to be available at the same sub $2k price range that 1080p LED LCDs/ Plasmas were back in 2011. I am but a humble middle class worker and cannot afford anymore than that. I assume most americans are in my boat. I was (obviously) joking about Obama. "Thanks Obama" is a meme/ running joke poking fun at people who blame him for things that he has no control over and I have read about the obscene fail rate of Oleds.

Several people have suggested the f8500 which seems wonderful but it's $3k on amazon and thus out of my price range. Perhaps it will drop under $2k in a year's time and I'll buy it.
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Tone is hard to pick up from a post. As to how much someone is willing to spend, it has a lot more to do with priorities as opposed to being middle class or not. However, thanks to a certain law coming to fruition this year, I'm about to lose significant spending power (tying it back to your sarcastic political jab). Finally, it took approximately a decade for (lower end) 1080p LCD panels to reach <$2k. Big-screen OLED didn't even arrive until last year.
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post #15 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gozu View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post

OLED is out there already. You can go to any BB and buy one and they will ship from one of their Magnolia stores. May not be in your price range, but they are out there. The LG can be had for about $6000 from a few online vendors. Just because YOU can't afford one, doesn't mean they don't exist. I highly doubt the president had anything to do with them not being available in 2011. The reason why they were not available is because the panels in test production had over a 50% fail rate.

You made me laugh. biggrin.gif

First of all, thank you for the polite and factual answer. You are absolutely, 100% right.

Second, I meant that I was hoping for Oleds in 2014 to be available at the same sub $2k price range that 1080p LED LCDs/ Plasmas were back in 2011. I am but a humble middle class worker and cannot afford anymore than that. I assume most americans are in my boat. I was (obviously) joking about Obama. "Thanks Obama" is a meme/ running joke poking fun at people who blame him for things that he has no control over and I have read about the obscene fail rate of Oleds.

Several people have suggested the f8500 which seems wonderful but it's $3k on amazon and thus out of my price range. Perhaps it will drop under $2k in a year's time and I'll buy it.

Your best bet is either finding a price drop on the F8500, finding a good deal on a 2013 Panasonic, or waiting to see what the H5000/H7000 offer this year.


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post #16 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 06:18 PM
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Also, my impression is the bezel/stand may not be as ascetically appealing.

That's ok, I'm not an ascetic.

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post #17 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 07:31 PM
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My point was the Panny's look good with lights on contrary to what Sasmung owners continue to post about having to view it in a cave which is 100% not true.

If you do turn the lights completely off at night which some people will do, the Panasonic's will produce better blacks. I did not say it wasn't ideal to watch in the dark as the picture will still be amazing but add some light to the room and picture continues to amaze. In all honestly, do we really need a pure black screen to look off anyway? The black levels and shadow details will be more important when their is content on the screen, not when you are only looking at a black screen anyway.

If you want great looking blacks in a well lit room, a good Samsung LED can even produce that. My Sasmung es7500 during the daytime would give inky blacks but the pq still cannot match that of the VT60 or an F8500 for that matter. No one in the plasma section is running out to by an LED because of the great daytime blacks which the lighter the room, the blacker blacks on those.

Each TV has their strengths and weaknesses but can you really go wrong with either one considering the other choices out there? It just seems like Samsung owners continue to down the Panasonic line like they have something to prove. It is a great TV and doesn't always need to be compared to the Panasonic's. If you are going to compare then you better expect a Panasonic owner to step in when things are being posted that is completely not true.

Then people ask why Samsung owners don't post in the Pansonic threads. Simple, Panasonic owners don't sit their and compare their TV's to the F8500 and spew BS about it. Actually the F8500 rarely gets mentioned so their is nothing for an F8500 owner to refute. If the F8500 does get mentioned in a Panasonic thread, it is usually because it is being recommended to a person because of their required use. Way different then what goes on in the Samsung threads.

I am not pointing a finger at you but just general speaking from what I see on this site.

I may be reading different posts than you, but I never got the sense that ppl said the Panasonic needed to be viewed in the dark to be enjoyed, but that it needed to be viewed in the dark for it to have an advantage over the f8500.

in other words, if you view mostly in the dark, the vt/zt is a good choice. if you view in dimly lit rooms, both will look fantastic. if you view in brightly lit rooms, the f8500 will have the edge.

I do think it's funny how differently your view on the Samsung vs panny debate is though. I always thought you were supposed to compare new displays to the best out there. I mean, if a new f8500 owner came in stating how pleased they were with it, and that it had 'even better blacks' than an LG, who would even care? haha. I think we both read what we want to hear a little bit. at least we can agree that best(only?) options out there right now are the top end plasmas from Panasonic and Samsung

ps, I didn't mean to say YOU thought the Panasonic didn't look ideal in pitch black room, I meant to say that because of the 'glow'(which you mentioned) it wasn't an ideal viewing condition. I LOVE to watch in a pitch black room, and there is simply no flat panel(maybe a tweaked kuro or a future oled, but certainly not the f8500 or vt/zt60) that looks it's best in that situation. they all need bias lighting to make their dark grey look black. this is one quality I miss from my CRT RPTV.

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post #18 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
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You made me laugh. biggrin.gif

First of all, thank you for the polite and factual answer. You are absolutely, 100% right.

Second, I meant that I was hoping for Oleds in 2014 to be available at the same sub $2k price range that 1080p LED LCDs/ Plasmas were back in 2011. I am but a humble middle class worker and cannot afford anymore than that. I assume most americans are in my boat. I was (obviously) joking about Obama. "Thanks Obama" is a meme/ running joke poking fun at people who blame him for things that he has no control over and I have read about the obscene fail rate of Oleds.

Several people have suggested the f8500 which seems wonderful but it's $3k on amazon and thus out of my price range. Perhaps it will drop under $2k in a year's time and I'll buy it.

one thing to consider, and something I feel I have tested out thoroughly(unfortunately for my bank account) is that in can often cost a lot more money to buy the cheaper products.

what I'm suggesting is that buying something like the f8500 for 3k once ever 5yrs will provide you with superior performance and cost less than buying something for 2k every 2yrs, or something for 1k every year. the only purchases I have ever regretting have been when I underspent.

anyway, with the current state of the market, this could be more true than ever before. I would fully expect ANY good plasma purchased now to outperform ANY LCD made in the future. and I suspect that OLED will be expensive for many years to come as well. so, my plan is to ride out the f8500 purchase for at least 5yrs, if not closer to 10. the last 'good' tv I bought was a CRT RPTV that massively outperformed every flat panel until the kuro's(which still cost twice as much as I got the RPTV for). at the time, I thought it was crazy to spend the money I did on that, but considering it lasted about 8yrs before I found a better display to replace it, I'd have to say it was a way better value than the 1k I spent on my first Samsung plasma that was supposed to be its replacement and I've been unhappy with for 5yrs.
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post #19 of 39 Old 03-02-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I found a used, 7-month old TC-P60S60 on craigslist for $850.

Good deal? I'm tempted.
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post #20 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 04:48 AM
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price sounds decent for that size.. how many hours and in what condition?  any IR?


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post #21 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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price sounds decent for that size.. how many hours and in what condition?  any IR?

How do I find out the hours? The dude who's selling it probably doesn't know.

I'm going to go checkout the TV today. Any tips on making image retention more visible?
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post #22 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 06:24 AM
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How do I find out the hours? The dude who's selling it probably doesn't know.

I'm going to go checkout the TV today. Any tips on making image retention more visible?
Run the screen wipe in the settings menu or if the TV has a USB port, throw some colored slides on it and play them on the TV. If this is private you can even ask the owner to show you if the screen is free of IR. They should have some way to prove it to you.
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post #23 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 07:39 AM
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Pull up the Menu, go to the HELP option, and check the C number listed by STATUS 4: C00640-xxxx .... 

 

The number of hours in this example would be 640.  

 

As for IR, or Image Retention (what people think of when they say "burn-in", which is something altogether different), pull up some different full color slides from a USB drive, or some bright mostly white content.. look for shadows of images that were once there.. images retained by the screen.. should be none, hopefully.


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post #24 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondjulian View Post

Pull up the Menu, go to the HELP option, and check the C number listed by STATUS 4: C00640-xxxx .... 

The number of hours in this example would be 640.  

As for IR, or Image Retention (what people think of when they say "burn-in", which is something altogether different), pull up some different full color slides from a USB drive, or some bright mostly white content.. look for shadows of images that were once there.. images retained by the screen.. should be none, hopefully.
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Image Retention or Burn-in.

Thank you for the tips! I'll get some jpegs on a fat32 usb stick.

If I may impose further on you, how many hours would be too many? 500? 1000? 2000?
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Thank you for the tips! I'll get some jpegs on a fat32 usb stick.

If I may impose further on you, how many hours would be too many? 500? 1000? 2000?
These plasmas have a life expectancy of 100,000 before noticeable brightness reduction so I don't think their will be enough hours on the panel to really matter. Defects and screen uniformity should dictate if the deal is worth it.
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These plasmas have a life expectancy of 100,000 before noticeable brightness reduction so I don't think their will be enough hours on the panel to really matter. Defects and screen uniformity should dictate if the deal is worth it.

Defects and screen uniformity. Got it! You're the man!
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post #27 of 39 Old 03-03-2014, 08:34 AM
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Just to be clear....many plasma "panels" have a 100,000 hr half life expectancy. History has shown that other componants (i.e power supply, boards, etc) of the display tend to expire prior.
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Just to be clear....many plasma "panels" have a 100,000 hr half life expectancy. History has shown that other componants (i.e power supply, boards, etc) of the display tend to expire prior.

Or we upgrade well in advance smile.gif

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That's ok, I'm not an ascetic.

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Thanks, I'm not looking to pay less for a stripped down TV either.
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Just for reference, I first powered up my S60 on Dec 21st. I have between 600-650 hours on mine. And it is on and in use A ALOT.

I'd figure this one you found probably has 2000 hours or less on it. And that would be normal use. I wouldn't really be bothered unless it had some defect in the panel.

At 24 hours per day, 30 days a month for 7 months. It is impossible for it to have more than 5000 ish hours.

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