Samsung Black Optimizer and Black Tone Features - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 04-04-2014, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I always thought that the Black Optimizer was a panel adjustment like cell light (and backlight on LCD displays). While I don't have the same TV they are refering to, according to this article, it appears to handle things on the video processing end (like contrast, brightness, sharpness, color, tint, gamma, color space, and white balance), as opposed to changing the darkness and brightness of the panel itself. If I'm right, I know now to leave this off for purity, because isn't this similar to the Black Tone setting in advanced picture settings?
Big C is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 04-04-2014, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 204
black tone crushes blacks (like turning the brightness control too low)

black optimizer improves black levels in dark scenes (improving contrast and depth), but causes more visible fluctuations in black level which can be distracting at times

my Samsung F5300 has a MLL (black level on fully black screen) of 0.006 fL with black optimizer set to dark room and 0.009 fL with it off... the latter works best for me as while the blacks are a bit brighter, they look much more stable in dark scenes
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 04-04-2014, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,596
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 962
imo, just from observations, I would say BO is the flat panel equivalent of a dynamic iris in projectors.

basically, it's a GOOD thing, if done well. sometimes it's action is noticeable, and that's when it's annoying, but 90% of the time all it does is make dark scenes look better while not affecting bright scenes at all

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #4 of 19 Old 04-04-2014, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

black tone crushes blacks (like turning the brightness control too low)

black optimizer improves black levels in dark scenes (improving contrast and depth), but causes more visible fluctuations in black level which can be distracting at times

my Samsung F5300 has a MLL (black level on fully black screen) of 0.006 fL with black optimizer set to dark room and 0.009 fL with it off... the latter works best for me as while the blacks are a bit brighter, they look much more stable in dark scenes
Fluctuations? I don't think I'll be using it. I'm just curious. When set to Off, Bright Room, or Auto, does it make peak brightness any brighter?
Big C is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 04-04-2014, 05:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,596
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Fluctuations? I don't think I'll be using it. I'm just curious. When set to Off, Bright Room, or Auto, does it make peak brightness any brighter?

I didn't think it affected brightness at all. but I have not measured, nor have I wanted more brightness out of the set(it's too bright imo) so I can't say for certain.

MOST of the time, the 'fluctuations' work smoothly like with a CRT. it's only the rare cut scenes where it goes from bright to dark really quick, and the procession lags slightly behind. your personal sensitivity will definitely come into play, but I find I'm a lot more noticeable of the poorer black levels than I am of the occasional lag.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #6 of 19 Old 04-05-2014, 03:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 508


If you display a 110-Step Full Grayscale Pattern like the above you can check your various enhancements controls of your display; Advance Contrast, Black Tone, Black Correction, Advanced Contrast Enhancer, Auto Light Limiter, Clear White, Dynamic Contrast, Cinema Black, Smooth Gradationetc. to have a better view of the problems they introducing and to realize why you need to leave them untouched to prevent new problems. (no smooth color graduations, distortions, discoloration, clipping, banding, posterization, crushed shadow details, raised black levels etc.)
PlasmaPZ80U and KONICA TECH like this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #7 of 19 Old 04-05-2014, 05:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

imo, just from observations, I would say BO is the flat panel equivalent of a dynamic iris in projectors.

basically, it's a GOOD thing, if done well. sometimes it's action is noticeable, and that's when it's annoying, but 90% of the time all it does is make dark scenes look better while not affecting bright scenes at all

It's not always noticeable, but then the difference between 0.006 fL and 0.009 fL with a bias light or during the day isn't either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Fluctuations? I don't think I'll be using it. I'm just curious. When set to Off, Bright Room, or Auto, does it make peak brightness any brighter?

Not in my tests, but I haven't checked it very thoroughly yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I didn't think it affected brightness at all. but I have not measured, nor have I wanted more brightness out of the set(it's too bright imo) so I can't say for certain.

MOST of the time, the 'fluctuations' work smoothly like with a CRT. it's only the rare cut scenes where it goes from bright to dark really quick, and the procession lags slightly behind. your personal sensitivity will definitely come into play, but I find I'm a lot more noticeable of the poorer black levels than I am of the occasional lag.

In certain cases it can be very obvious (when APL in right on the threshold where the floating blacks start happening). Other times, you can't tell. However, the black level isn't that much darker with BO On, so that difference is also minor.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 04-05-2014, 05:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post



If you display a 110-Step Full Grayscale Pattern like the above you can check your various enhancements controls of your display; Advance Contrast, Black Tone, Black Correction, Advanced Contrast Enhancer, Auto Light Limiter, Clear White, Dynamic Contrast, Cinema Black, Smooth Gradationetc. to have a better view of the problems they introducing and to realize why you need to leave them untouched to prevent new problems. (no smooth color graduations, distortions, discoloration, clipping, banding, posterization, crushed shadow details, raised black levels etc.)

does your website explain what each of the patterns under the color reproduction section is specifically for?
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 04-05-2014, 09:59 PM
Member
 
mikkojokinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


I didn't think it affected brightness at all. but I have not measured, nor have I wanted more brightness out of the set(it's too bright imo) so I can't say for certain.

MOST of the time, the 'fluctuations' work smoothly like with a CRT. it's only the rare cut scenes where it goes from bright to dark really quick, and the procession lags slightly behind. your personal sensitivity will definitely come into play, but I find I'm a lot more noticeable of the poorer black levels than I am of the occasional lag.

 

That sounds like an older LG set I saw where the brightness limiter kicked in at random, there was no remedy for that but your issue could be solvable with a software update

mikkojokinen is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 04-06-2014, 12:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vic12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 26
What is the black level suppose too be on full/mostly white screens when the abl makes objects/things murky gray? Can it be too black,or is it suppose too be murky too?
I'm glad floating blacks has not been very obvious on mine.Pne450.I never even notice it,but I'm 12ft back often.
Vic12345 is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 04-06-2014, 06:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post



If you display a 110-Step Full Grayscale Pattern like the above you can check your various enhancements controls of your display; Advance Contrast, Black Tone, Black Correction, Advanced Contrast Enhancer, Auto Light Limiter, Clear White, Dynamic Contrast, Cinema Black, Smooth Gradationetc. to have a better view of the problems they introducing and to realize why you need to leave them untouched to prevent new problems. (no smooth color graduations, distortions, discoloration, clipping, banding, posterization, crushed shadow details, raised black levels etc.)

does your website explain what each of the patterns under the color reproduction section is specifically for?

There no informations in my site for each pattern, what to look for or example of what is good or bad by viewing each pattern.

As you have see each Color Reproduction Pattern of my disk has so many uses to various types of testings.

I don't recomment my disk for newcomers to calibration world because the patterns are more complicated and it will be more difficult from them to understand what to notice for each pattern and for what reason.

I want the users that will come to my disk solution to come after using 1-2 other calibration disk first or have spent money to hardware pattern generators, these users will understand better the value of my disk. smile.gif

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #12 of 19 Old 04-06-2014, 12:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,596
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

It's not always noticeable, but then the difference between 0.006 fL and 0.009 fL with a bias light or during the day isn't either.
Not in my tests, but I haven't checked it very thoroughly yet.
In certain cases it can be very obvious (when APL in right on the threshold where the floating blacks start happening). Other times, you can't tell. However, the black level isn't that much darker with BO On, so that difference is also minor.

I would agree that the action of the BO is seldom noticeable, and even more rarely distracting. but in my room and my viewing conditions(the less light the better) the difference between Dark room and Off is obvious with a dark scene.

I'm a little annoyed that I didn't know what it did exactly before buying the f8500. because it's the BO that makes the f8500's blacks comparable to the vt60's, without it on, it's really not quite there. and that knowledge probably would have me looking harder at a vt/zt before purchasing.

that's not to say I think the BO is a bad thing, I mean, what I'd love to see is the vt/zt with a black optimizer on top of their awesome blacks cool.gif

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #13 of 19 Old 04-06-2014, 02:00 PM
KOF
Advanced Member
 
KOF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 835
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I would agree that the action of the BO is seldom noticeable, and even more rarely distracting. but in my room and my viewing conditions(the less light the better) the difference between Dark room and Off is obvious with a dark scene.

I'm a little annoyed that I didn't know what it did exactly before buying the f8500. because it's the BO that makes the f8500's blacks comparable to the vt60's, without it on, it's really not quite there. and that knowledge probably would have me looking harder at a vt/zt before purchasing.

that's not to say I think the BO is a bad thing, I mean, what I'd love to see is the vt/zt with a black optimizer on top of their awesome blacks cool.gif

It would also have been a boon to the LCDs as well. Too bad none of the LCDs got dynamic contrast ratio right. biggrin.gif Unlike the F8500, LCDs must suffer from auto dimming. Maybe Dolby VIsion may prove different.
KOF is online now  
post #14 of 19 Old 04-07-2014, 03:14 PM
Member
 
mikkojokinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


I would agree that the action of the BO is seldom noticeable, and even more rarely distracting. but in my room and my viewing conditions(the less light the better) the difference between Dark room and Off is obvious with a dark scene.

I'm a little annoyed that I didn't know what it did exactly before buying the f8500. because it's the BO that makes the f8500's blacks comparable to the vt60's, without it on, it's really not quite there. and that knowledge probably would have me looking harder at a vt/zt before purchasing.

that's not to say I think the BO is a bad thing, I mean, what I'd love to see is the vt/zt with a black optimizer on top of their awesome blacks cool.gif

 

If black optimizer worked on a linear or gamma trajectory it might be worth something but as it is now I wonder what Samsung was even thinking , it is so completely arbitrary

mikkojokinen is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 04-07-2014, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,596
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkojokinen View Post

If black optimizer worked on a linear or gamma trajectory it might be worth something but as it is now I wonder what Samsung was even thinking , it is so completely arbitrary

well, it vastly improves black levels. so there's that.

honestly, it's just like a dynamic iris on a projector. but without any moving parts, I'm surprised it doesn't work better than a DI does. and at the end of the day, it's as easy to turn off as dynamic contrast, so where's the harm in having it?

like I said earlier, I wish I knew what it did before I bought the tv, as it may have pushed me towards a panny as I have no need for the extra brightness. but that was an issue with nobody really testing what it does, not with the feature itself. as a similar example, I upgraded my projector as well, and was deciding between a jvc x35 and Epson 5020, ultimately the fact the jvc did not 'need' a dynamic iris to achieve the results persuaded me to buy it instead of the Epson. the Epson is still a very good, and well reviewed projector, but I knew I was going to be more likely to use the Epson without the DI, and in that case the jvc was definitely better. just like how I think the vt is definitely better in a dark room than the f8500 with BO off. with BO on, it's close

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #16 of 19 Old 04-07-2014, 03:44 PM
Member
 
mikkojokinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12

Good analogy with the iris, another thing nobody talks about is the solidity of above black tones which I think fares a bit poorly on the samsungs compared to lg and panasonic, its not something you can measure with a meter but you might see with your own eyes, ultimately I don't place alot of importance on black levels but the black optimizer is interesting.

mikkojokinen is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 04-07-2014, 05:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,596
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkojokinen View Post

Good analogy with the iris, another thing nobody talks about is the solidity of above black tones which I think fares a bit poorly on the samsungs compared to lg and panasonic, its not something you can measure with a meter but you might see with your own eyes, ultimately I don't place alot of importance on black levels but the black optimizer is interesting.

are you talking about dithering?

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #18 of 19 Old 04-10-2014, 07:05 AM
Member
 
mikkojokinen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
dont think so, I am talking about modulation

panasonic on, off, on ,off, on, off
lg on, off, on ,off, on, off
samsung on, off, off, off, off, on (more space between pixels and loss of shadows)

you can test that yourself by looking at one pixel or the spacing between 'on' pixels, panasonic behaves the same in dynamic mode
mikkojokinen is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 04-11-2014, 03:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
Vic12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Tv ive here the darkest black levesl is much darker on shirts/suits than the reflection from the room lighting on side black bars.Seems I may notice the blacks crushed more on some shows in a dark room vs lighted.So maybe the darkening features work better in lighted rooms.
Vic12345 is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off