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post #1 of 24 Old 05-23-2014, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a chance to buy a brand new in box Samsung PN43F4500 or a brand new in box Panasonic TCP42X60 for $50 more. Any opinions will be appreciated.

I’m looking for comparison of
1) Built quality / long term durability
2) HD picture quality
3) Tweaking ability of each TV.
and this next one is very important
4) SD scaling as I still watch some SD channels and I have a large collection of music concerts scattered on various formats that are not available in HD or even SD DVD
Thanks.
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-24-2014, 02:17 PM
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Get the Samsung.

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post #3 of 24 Old 05-24-2014, 09:57 PM
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This has been asked before
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481202/samsung-pn43f4500-vs-panasonic-tcp42x60
If they offer you a cheap 5 year extended warranty on the Samsung it'd be a good idea to take it.
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I have a large collection of music concerts scattered on various formats that are not available in HD or even SD DVD
If they're on tape you should look at digitising them to hard drive files. Tapes have a limited lifespan in years and plays and may start to really degrade soon.
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-25-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Get the Samsung.

For picture quality, yes. For long term reliability, I'd rather take my chances with the Panasonic.


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post #5 of 24 Old 05-25-2014, 08:08 AM
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Both should be great for SD contents as their native resolution is 1024x768. I used to have an LG with the same resolution and it handled SD and not so great bitrate materials far better than the 1080p Panny I own now.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-31-2014, 03:46 PM
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post #7 of 24 Old 06-01-2014, 09:07 AM
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Having seen the build quality of the X60 Panasonic I would say that there is no difference between an F4500 and an X60. It is terribly built, compared to older Panasonics, and arguably worse built than Samsung. (Samsung's 4-series plasmas have usually been pretty cheaply built.)
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post #8 of 24 Old 06-02-2014, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok thanks.
If I go for one I will buy the Samsung but I just found the 42 inch LG 42PN4500 Plasma for the same price as the Samsung.

Same questions between the Samsung PN43F4500 and the LG 42PN4500
I’m looking for comparison of
1) Built quality / long term durability
2) HD picture quality
3) Tweaking ability of each TV.
and this next one is very important
4) SD scaling as I still watch some SD channels and I have a large collection of music concerts scattered on various formats that are not available in HD or even SD DVD
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Both should be great for SD contents as their native resolution is 1024x768. I used to have an LG with the same resolution and it handled SD and not so great bitrate materials far better than the 1080p Panny I own now.

I’ve heard other say that a 1024x768 plasma scales SD better than a 1920x1080 set. My question is, why? I would think that a panel using more pixels to work with would up scale low res material better. Can you or anyone else explain why a 1024x768 panel is better for SD material? Thanks. How did you like your LG by the way? What model was it?
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post #9 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Ok thanks.
If I go for one I will buy the Samsung but I just found the 42 inch LG 42PN4500 Plasma for the same price as the Samsung.

Same questions between the Samsung PN43F4500 and the LG 42PN4500
I’m looking for comparison of
1) Built quality / long term durability
2) HD picture quality
3) Tweaking ability of each TV.
and this next one is very important
4) SD scaling as I still watch some SD channels and I have a large collection of music concerts scattered on various formats that are not available in HD or even SD DVD
Thanks.
I’ve heard other say that a 1024x768 plasma scales SD better than a 1920x1080 set. My question is, why? I would think that a panel using more pixels to work with would up scale low res material better. Can you or anyone else explain why a 1024x768 panel is better for SD material? Thanks. How did you like your LG by the way? What model was it?

Because an SD content will be output on an anamorphic 1024x768 with minimal amount of scaling. Let's assuming the said SD content is 4:3 so let's calculate pixel usage on 1024x768 plasmas when only using 4:3. Horizontal pixels used is 1024 when in 16:9, so in 4:3 would be 25% pixel reduction in horiental orientation and that's 768, so the actual resolution is 768x768 which is not going to be shown on those TVs as 1:1, but rather 4:3 because horizontal size of a pixel is 25% longer than vertical. 768 is awfully close to 640 lines in an SD resolution (640x480) If you choose to accept some blank pixels, it's actually possible to show an unmolested horizontal SD resolution on those plasmas. Only vertical scaling will be done and it's still an addition of a vertical line for every two lines, which is not too bad.

16:9 anamorphic DVDs also work nicely as the pixels are anamorphic by nature on those plasmas, it works much better even though scaling will be done both horizontally and vertically.

You would argue having more pixels to work with would be better for upscaling, but no. While it's true the higher resolution displays have more pixels to work with, they also have to perform interpolations more. Interpolation means combining nearby two pixels of an original source, finding an intermediate value, and placing it in between those two pixels. The catch, though, is interpolation causes soft picture because of addtion of intermediate pixels. What the original was supposed to work with only two adjacent pixels, now has to show three with an addition of a pixel that wasn't originally there. The more resolution, the more interpolations will be done and for a 4K display, it would have interpolation from two already interpolated sources, making it for an extremely fuzzy, soft picture. I've seen it, and it wasn't pretty. Contrary to general perception, less interpolations are actually better, so if possible, no scaling will give you the best quality. That's the reason why HDTVs always lose to an SD CRT for SD contents. DVDs and SD sources look crisp and vibrant on my Sony Trinitron BVM broadcast monitor I'm actually thinking of adding more CRTs for DVDs. Will I suffer from SDE? Sure. But it's not really a downside considering PQ lose from soft picture on my Panasonic 1080p plasma is FAR more serious.

The 51 inch Samsung F4500 is the way to go. It's very bright and has black level equal to the F5300/F5500 making for an amazing PQ. If I couldn't get CRTs, the F4500 would be my next best choice for SD sources. My previous plasma, the LG PT350 wasn't too bad and I actually liked it once I performed black mod, but I could do with better blacks and brightness which the F4500 does provide. I've become especially a stickler for black level since spending some time with my Panasonic S64. Contrast ratio really makes for an enjoyable viewing. Oh and Blu-rays and HD-DVDs will look great on those sets too. Downscaling works wonders and my 1080p Panasonic plasma didn't really trash those 720p sets detail-wise. They're closer than you would think, making for very versatile sets.
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post #10 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 01:15 PM
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Before I got my 1080p p50s60 I had a Panny P42c2 and that was a 720p(1024x768 panel) and SD content looked great on it! Looks not so great on the full 1080p set now but Blu Ray sure looks nice.. tongue.gif
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post #11 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 01:33 PM
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On the other hand downscaling is excellent down to 768p, as all kinds of compression artifacts are completely gone

I don't know why nobody made good plasmas in 720p seems like a no brainer as the lumen/watt efficiency would yield mind blowing contrast
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post #12 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 01:56 PM
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Contrast, yes that black is 0.008cdm^2! In 'free measures' I found a reading of 0.006226 cdm^2.

BT1886 Gamma (AVSHD 709 small APL windows)

20 point greyscale results with 10% size windows (that explains the 2.24 gamma)

75% saturation 75% amplitude

Colorchecker

Saturations





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post #13 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 02:11 PM
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That just made my point smile.gif a budget set easily pushing more than twice the ANSI contrast of the flagship model
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post #14 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 02:34 PM
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Mine is the F4900 though, the 3D version. The F4500 black level is 0.013cdm^2.

Playstation 2 480p games


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post #15 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 02:47 PM
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does this all mean the budget 43 inch 4500 and 4900 series plasmas show a better/worse picture than their price would suggest?  did the 4900 ever sell in the USA?  would love to pick one up on groupon goods.  they always get south american sold import tv's.

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post #16 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 04:11 PM
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I just picked up a recapped Vizio VP322 32" 1024x768 plasma and it is SUPERB with SD material. Uses and LG panel and manufactured in 2008.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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post #17 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post

On the other hand downscaling is excellent down to 768p, as all kinds of compression artifacts are completely gone

I don't know why nobody made good plasmas in 720p seems like a no brainer as the lumen/watt efficiency would yield mind blowing contrast

Oops! That was one very important factor I forgot to mention! You're SO right. I hated compression artifacts on both 1080p Panasonic plasma and Sony LCD. When there is a '1080p' resolution option on Youtube videos, you would think a 1080p TV would handle them the best. WRONG. When it comes to streaming, bitrate determines resolution compatibility, NOT whatever resolution it says on the streaming source. My previous LG plasma may have cut off slight details, but at least they were compression artifacts free.

One more thing about upscaling. Is there anything an upscaling can improve the original source? Yes. Because of interpolation, jaggy originals will now look smooth, and that was the impression I was getting from 4k LCDs upscaling SD contents. Problem is, we don't care how smooth the pixels are, we're going to get irritated by soft picture FAR more. Here is one funny story. Gran Turismo 3 used to be a terror to me because whatever displays I threw at, it always looked ugly. Then after I got the Sony BVM, I was amazed with its look. Was it jaggy as hell? Yes. Did I find it offending? No. Seriously, I couldn't believe myself either. After that, I've become a believer in 'No Scaling" policy and now I'm going to purchase different displays to cater to each of my resolution needs. I had been searching in vein for 'One display fits all' solution and tried various scalers and every one of them disappointed me.
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post #18 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:34 PM
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Because the pixels and sub pixels are bigger, they can put out more light. The Samsungs have hoizontal black lines under each row of pixels (see pic, its almost like scanlines but its a physical black line or is it a gap? It might explain how it looks CRTish. Don't worry you would see any of this unless you had your nose to the screen.


This is a Sony PVM CRT displaying 240p so you know what scanlines look like


This Samsung does actually recognise 240p as a video format (so it doesn't do unnecessary deinterlacing) you don't get scanlines though, it just scales it.

The PVM actually has a finer pitch (super fine pitch) than the 43F4900 (Its like a regular consumer model Trintitron), but then I view the 20 inch PVM from 1m but the plasma from 3m and I can't see the big pixels. In 4:3 mode you get 36" of screen.

It was very good value for money, I was considering the 42X60 and F4500. The F4500 had an extra in and same physcial dimensions, and 10 point white balance ( I have meters to take advantage of that). The X60 had a DVB-T2 tuner but the F4500 didn't. Both were £300. The F4900 was £357, had the DVB-T2 tuner and 3D and 2 pairs of glasses (didn't care about 3D, but have a few PS3 games that can use it). Blurays look great.

The only things i don't like are forced overscan on SD broadcast, and on the EPG you can't press 1 to go to the top of the list. One feature that isn't advertised is the stand swivels and is made of glass.
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post #19 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:38 PM
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Man, seeing that PVM picture makes me miss my BVM already. It's been dead for a few days. Power supply doesn't make the tube turn on and I don't know what to do for a repair. frown.gif

I should have jumped at that Sony FV310 while I could.
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post #20 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:45 PM
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Ive been contemplating a Panny ED Professional series from back in the day for legacy video game consoles.

PS - You can buy a device that will put scanlines into your old video games on fixed pixel displays.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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post #21 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Man, seeing that PVM picture makes me miss my BVM already. It's been dead for a few days. Power supply doesn't make the tube turn on and I don't know what to do for a repair. frown.gif

I should have jumped at that Sony FV310 while I could.

The power supplies are removable on BVMs aren't they? Couldn't you take that to a repair shop and get it fixed?
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Ive been contemplating a Panny ED Professional series from back in the day for legacy video game consoles.

PS - You can buy a device that will put scanlines into your old video games on fixed pixel displays.

Pioneer PDP-V402?
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post #22 of 24 Old 06-03-2014, 05:53 PM
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The power supplies are removable on BVMs aren't they? Couldn't you take that to a repair shop and get it fixed?
Pioneer PDP-V402?

Is that the 4:3 Pioneer plasma?

I tried to buy one off Craigslist from Hilton Head area one time, but it was snatched up quickly. It was in great shape with no burn in.

Vizio VP322 Plasma / Vizio GV42LF LCD / Denon 2200 Silicon Image DVD / Panasonic S97 Faroudja Genesis DVD / Oppo 970HD Mediatek DVD / Oppo 983H Anchor Bay DVD / Panasonic LX-600 Laserdisc / Aiwa MX100 Multi-region VCR / JVC S7600 S-VHS / PS2 / Sega Genesis / Nintendo SNES / Roku 2 XS & HD-XR / Realistic STA-90 Reciever / Realistic Minimus 7 / Antennacraft G1483 Hoverman / Belden 7915A RG6 / Channel Master 7777 Titan 2 UHF/VHF / Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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post #23 of 24 Old 06-04-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22point8 View Post

Because the pixels and sub pixels are bigger, they can put out more light. The Samsungs have hoizontal black lines under each row of pixels (see pic, its almost like scanlines but its a physical black line or is it a gap? It might explain how it looks CRTish. Don't worry you would see any of this unless you had your nose to the screen.

The horizontal gap is for the the scan and sustain electrodes, since a few years Panasonic used a transparent electrode structure on 42 inch FHD models called Fishbone ITO (indium-tin-oxide, a highly transparent electrically conductive surface). From the perspective of the user it completely eliminated the screen door affect but the real purpose of that design was to boost brightness compared to larger models.

I tried to capture the fishbone layout with "macro" mode on an old JVC picsio I picked up for pennies



In normal viewing it appears like an aperture grille CRT but the fill rate is much higher than anything I've seen previously, with your nose to the glass you can barely make out one pixel tongue.gif

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post #24 of 24 Old 06-06-2014, 02:53 AM
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Just got Sony FS120 Wega and I already miss my BVM. :sad: I'm trying to figure out how to navigate through service menu to fix red push. It has a big of geometry problems, but right now, red push is the bigger fish to fry.
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