What killed Plasma? - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by whipit View Post
It was rated at 3200 watts. Of course it may use half that, like other plasmas, with regular content and a good calibration.
If the buyer could afford that set, I suspect they could also spend a couple hundred grand on a solar power farm on the property next door. That way, they'd have zero carbon footprint and just make their own electricity.

As to the original question: I think the economics of scale wound up with LCD being much, much less-costly to manufacture, and the market swung completely towards competition mainly by price in the last 5 years. I think 90% of the average TV buyers don't care at all about picture quality, especially if they're shopping at Costco, Walmart, Target, and Best Buy. It's hard to see what the displays are really capable of when they're set to Torch Mode on the showroom floor. Sadly, I bet not that many of them could do an honest Rec709 picture, even after calibration.
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post #332 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 07:08 PM
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Samsung.
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post #333 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 07:10 PM
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You have to look at realistically. No one with small children wants their children to destroy one. They don't work well at high altitudes. They were dimmer than CRTs, and their best operating temperature was 65 degrees Fahrenheit in an AC cooled room. They weren't big enough to challenge overated projectors on top of it all. Those are big flaws, so we are lucky to have ours and the sales we do get. But I can also point out the horrible flaws LCD has when compared to CRT. They fade, and as they fade, they get slower than they already are. One can improve their color and access time, but the viewing angle problem should have been completely solved long ago. And the new LED TVs are hard to repair sometimes.
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post #334 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 08:19 PM
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Lack of marketing killed plasma. What good does it do to win every shoot out and be proclaimed to have the best PQ by every reviewer on the planet if you don't let the public know it? When is the last time you saw a plasma commercial?
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post #335 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Weboh View Post
You have to look at realistically. No one with small children wants their children to destroy one. They don't work well at high altitudes. They were dimmer than CRTs, and their best operating temperature was 65 degrees Fahrenheit in an AC cooled room. They weren't big enough to challenge overated projectors on top of it all. Those are big flaws, so we are lucky to have ours and the sales we do get. But I can also point out the horrible flaws LCD has when compared to CRT. They fade, and as they fade, they get slower than they already are. One can improve their color and access time, but the viewing angle problem should have been completely solved long ago. And the new LED TVs are hard to repair sometimes.
to me, this is it. as bad as plasma might be, it's worlds ahead of what IS selling well. that's why it boggles my mind. it'd be one thing if plasma was dieing because every lcd was like the sharp elite. but the truth is, most lcd's on the market today look like absolute garbage when viewed in a light controlled room.


for me, I don't consider myself pro plasma, or even really anti-lcd. I just want there to be options to buy great quality displays at fair prices. and it's a hard pill to swallow to see something as fantastic as say the st60 sell for around 2k(for a 65") in 2013 and think that we MIGHT be lucky enough to have an oled or FALD dimming unit that can match its picture quality(for the most part) for the same price by 2020...


if all were right in the world of TV's, edgelit led's wouldn't even exist without some kind of dimming, and they would be the cheapest, lowest quality lcd's currently available. every manufacturer would have a FALD tv, and every year they'd try to outdo each other by adding more dimming zones.


instead, we have edgelit led's taking over the 'high end' part of the market, and manufacturers are adding motion control, and built in Skype cameras...
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post #336 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 11:37 PM
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What killed Plasma? ...Money; not enough of it.
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post #337 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
My plasmas have always been plug and play. Occasionally I may run the screen wash now and then after watching content with static images like sports tickers, but that's the extent of maintaining my display.



Despite their lower cost, and better PQ, Plasma TV's have never been competition for LCD's. It was the lack of educational marketing, poor retail support by many of the big box stores, thicker heavier bezels, along with higher energy consumption ratings, that reduced their market share to less the 5%. Not 4k.

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No 4k. Plasmas still live. 4k and plasmas die. Ya im sure it was 4k.
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post #338 of 418 Old 07-13-2014, 11:50 PM
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No 4K plasma means no money.
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post #339 of 418 Old 07-14-2014, 10:32 PM
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I think it's utterly ridiculous in a power hungry (energy) society a few tv's were putting off some " savvy customers" from buying plasma to save a few cents/pennies - whilst they are driving their kids to school (some are) in 4X4 vehicles.

Who on occasion are the ones that have the washing machines and tumble dryers on needlessly every day regardless if they needed to or not.

"But what we'll do Jane is be pretentious and buy an LCD and save ourselves 20 bucks a year but put up with ***** image quality unless it's paused"

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post #340 of 418 Old 07-14-2014, 11:51 PM
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No washing machines in the Amazonian jungles. ...And no plasma TVs either, or what are they using to watch the news?
Maybe it's them that killed Plasma?
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post #341 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by koan View Post
Two big contributors: LCDs have generally been better for bright rooms and plasmas aren't available in the smaller sizes. Both of which explain why the 32" set in our living room is an LCD. We have a larger DLP (soon to be replaced by a plasma) in our basement family room, but we know many who only own one TV and it's smaller than 50".
My wife has finally won the battle in getting rid of my pre-marriage Sammy DLP (my first big boy purchase). The color wheel was going bad which caused an unbearable buzzing sound. I wanted to fix it for $150 since its virtually worthless. However, my wife has wanted that tv gone from the day I moved in. She wins and I get a 64" Plasma. Guess its a Win/win. However, for me to give it away, I still had to fix the color wheel. Chalk that cost up fun/experimentation (my first time tearing open an tv). At least I know it will go to a good home.

On a side note, the DLP picture is still up there w/ the TVs today if not better. I would rather have the DLP than today's LCDs.
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post #342 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post
I think it's utterly ridiculous in a power hungry (energy) society a few tv's were putting off some " savvy customers" from buying plasma to save a few cents/pennies - whilst they are driving their kids to school (some are) in 4X4 vehicles.

Who on occasion are the ones that have the washing machines and tumble dryers on needlessly every day regardless if they needed to or not.

"But what we'll do Jane is be pretentious and buy an LCD and save ourselves 20 bucks a year but put up with ***** image quality unless it's paused"

This guy is on the right track. It wasn't the TV or the marketing, well, maybe a little bit of the marketing. But the problem is the people, the buyers, the uneducated buyers. These are the same people that are totally fine having 1000s of songs encoded as 96kb/128kb MP3s/AACs and the same people who stretch or zoom 4:3 content video content to fill their large screens. The masses don't care about quality. They want big and they want cheap. The technology is unimportant. The hype is. They couldn't be bothered to do the research to find out what is actually a good television. As long as they can find a large screen with a small price they are IN.

Me, I don't spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on anything without doing dozens of hours of research. I find out what the best is, and then I work backwards from there to get the best for my budget.

Anyway, I may be wrong but that's what I feel the problem is/was.
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post #343 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post
I think it's utterly ridiculous in a power hungry (energy) society a few tv's were putting off some " savvy customers" from buying plasma to save a few cents/pennies - whilst they are driving their kids to school (some are) in 4X4 vehicles.
I was thinking the same thing. And when these same people buy an energy efficient LCD TV, they take it home in their Lincoln Navigator.


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post #344 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 03:27 PM
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I don't think energy efficiency was a significant factor. I still think the main reasons are the potential for IR and being significantly less bright for story display.

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post #345 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 04:16 PM
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Plasma was never accepted by the general consumer, and plasma killed itself right out of the door. When they first came out, they cost $8000-$10,000 or more. Plus the consumers in the US were slow to adopt HDTV as were many local tv stations, thus the consumer did not abandon their CRT tv's for quite some time. In fact, most people in US did not own an HDTV in 2006, and when the stock market crash of 2008 hit, people did not have the money to spend on plasma. LED tv's were cheaper and looked "good" in the stores, and for finacially strapped Americans, the cheaper LED tv's were all they could afford. Plasma never really had a chance.
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post #346 of 418 Old 07-15-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
I don't think energy efficiency was a significant factor. I still the main reasons are the potential for IR and being significantly less bright for story display.
The fact remains, that when the average consumer goes to buy a display and they compare a bright LCD to a dimmer PDP with a lower energy star rating, it's usually no contest.


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post #347 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Plasma was never accepted by the general consumer, and plasma killed itself right out of the door. When they first came out, they cost $8000-$10,000 or more. Plus the consumers in the US were slow to adopt HDTV as were many local tv stations, thus the consumer did not abandon their CRT tv's for quite some time. In fact, most people in US did not own an HDTV in 2006, and when the stock market crash of 2008 hit, people did not have the money to spend on plasma. LED tv's were cheaper and looked "good" in the stores, and for finacially strapped Americans, the cheaper LED tv's were all they could afford. Plasma never really had a chance.
I think you have your CE history backwards. LCD was always the most expensive display per square inch than Plasma displays. The exception may have been the uber high-end Runco or Fujitsu plasma models. Due to sheer scale of production, I believe LCD had progressed pretty far in closing this pricing gap the last two years.

Yes, Plasmas were very expensive in the beginning, but so were LCD's in similar sizes. Tell me what 60" quality LCD in 2013 could be purchased at or below $1500 that matches the 60ST60? Speaking of which, from the very beginning Plasma not only consistently excelled in superior PQ than LCD, but also in larger screen sizes. Every year, Plasma won best display award at every CES, as well as every display shootout that I can recall. LCD has always been playing "catch-up" to Plasma, and Plasma was/is well-known to be the best bang for your buck. Plasma's demise is a huge blow to consumer's display choices, whether you like plasma or not it does effect everyone in one way or another.
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post #348 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post
I think you have your CE history backwards. LCD was always the most expensive display per square inch than Plasma displays. The exception may have been the uber high-end Runco or Fujitsu plasma models. Due to sheer scale of production, I believe LCD had progressed pretty far in closing this pricing gap the last two years.

Yes, Plasmas were very expensive in the beginning, but so were LCD's in similar sizes. Tell me what 60" quality LCD in 2013 could be purchased at or below $1500 that matches the 60ST60? Speaking of which, from the very beginning Plasma not only consistently excelled in superior PQ than LCD, but also in larger screen sizes. Every year, Plasma won best display award at every CES, as well as every display shootout that I can recall. LCD has always been playing "catch-up" to Plasma, and Plasma was/is well-known to be the best bang for your buck. Plasma's demise is a huge blow to consumer's display choices, whether you like plasma or not it does effect everyone in one way or another.
I'm not arguing about the quality of plasma vs LED. I own 2 plasmas. A pioneer 5020 and a Samsung F8500. Clearly plasma is better. But in 2013 when you could buy a 60 inch LED for $500 or less vs the $1500 ST, what do you think the general consumer will buy? 99% of the consumers do not visit AVS forum. 99% don't care about LED vs Plasma. 99% care about the price. Simple as that. We want to believe as elitists that plasma is what people should be buying, but in the end in comes down to money. TV is just an entertainment device to most people. If the color looks acceptable, it's bright, and it will last 5 years or more, then that's all that matters to most. In early 2009 when I bought the 5020, it was on sale for $1900, because Pioneer was getting out of the business. Normally it sold for $3000. If it wasn't for that price, I would have bought an LED, and would have been fat, happy and stupid thinking nothing could beat it.

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post #349 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ejcrossl View Post
My wife has finally won the battle in getting rid of my pre-marriage Sammy DLP (my first big boy purchase). The color wheel was going bad which caused an unbearable buzzing sound. I wanted to fix it for $150 since its virtually worthless. However, my wife has wanted that tv gone from the day I moved in. She wins and I get a 64" Plasma. Guess its a Win/win. However, for me to give it away, I still had to fix the color wheel. Chalk that cost up fun/experimentation (my first time tearing open an tv). At least I know it will go to a good home.

On a side note, the DLP picture is still up there w/ the TVs today if not better. I would rather have the DLP than today's LCDs.
DLP 3d is a thing of beauty as is its motion. They truly are. However a high end (even mid end) plasma will be superior in terms of pq in every other regard.
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post #350 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 01:50 AM
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DLP 3d is a thing of beauty as is its motion. They truly are. However a high end (even mid end) plasma will be superior in terms of pq in every other regard.
I agree. My first HDTV was a Samsung DLP. I have yet to find an HDTV that could handle motion as well as a DLP. The colors were average and the blacks were not very good, but it sure could handle motion!
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post #351 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 05:08 AM
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I don't think plasmas went out of fashion as such.

But as was previously mentioned a little while ago and in my opinion also it was a no contest to the potential customers who walked in 50/50 on what they were going to buy walking into a big store as the display device uneducated and seeing big bright white blue over saturated images in comparison to the plasma. And walking out of the store. Only to get home and have to turn the contrast and perhaps the saturation down as it hurts their eyes and say it didn't look as bright as this in the store.

Salesmen could have explained that unless there is direct bright sunlight pointing directly at the plasma then it will look bright enough in a domestic situation. Eyes become accustomed very quickly. And could have gone on to explain if you watch sports a lot - and enjoy movies then the plasma fluidity of motion will come out on top. Then go on to say if set up even remotely correctly when you are sitting watching a movie in the dark with your husband or wife, family or whoever in the dark as many people do then plasma is the way to go.

But i find it ridiculous that after all that time and generations of plasma displays - we always heard - Pioneer first, then Panasonic that back in Japan they couldn't figure out how to market plasma to the masses.

I mean come on - get a grip. Spend the necessary money hammering it across with proper marketing - tv adverts etc etc. There are dozens of things they could have done but didn't. And it just passed them by simply because they crossed their fingers hoping it would pick up. Nope - you have to make that happen i'm afraid.
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post #352 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 07:31 AM
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No marketing of it's superior quality and Bestbuy.

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post #353 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cheezmo1 View Post
Has anyone mentioned weight? I believe that has a lot to do with it. The consumer has to move it, or find a heavy duty wall mount. I own a Samsung t5084 and it is freakin heavy. The weight is two fold. One for the manufacturer. They have to ship it. Its probably twice as heavy as a comparable LCD, so that shipping cost adds up. Second, the consumer. I need two people to move mine. I hate that. That's old school CRT weight.
Agreed, my 58" plasma is what, 130+ pounds? And the estimate on power usage is something like $100+/year for my family's level of usage, not to mention the additional A/C to keep that room cool in the summer. I'm actually considering replacing it for the energy cost alone.

Later plasmas improved greatly, but there's the problem of first impressions.
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post #354 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I'm not arguing about the quality of plasma vs LED. I own 2 plasmas. A pioneer 5020 and a Samsung F8500. Clearly plasma is better. But in 2013 when you could buy a 60 inch LED for $500 or less vs the $1500 ST, what do you think the general consumer will buy? 99% of the consumers do not visit AVS forum. 99% don't care about LED vs Plasma. 99% care about the price. Simple as that. We want to believe as elitists that plasma is what people should be buying, but in the end in comes down to money. TV is just an entertainment device to most people. If the color looks acceptable, it's bright, and it will last 5 years or more, then that's all that matters to most. In early 2009 when I bought the 5020, it was on sale for $1900, because Pioneer was getting out of the business. Normally it sold for $3000. If it wasn't for that price, I would have bought an LED, and would have been fat, happy and stupid thinking nothing could beat it.
Good points, and I agree with most of it. Also, didn't mean to come across as you advocating LCD over Plasma. Typing quickly and throwing in a little rant here & there can skew the posting. But Wxman, I really don't think we're all "elitists" for being A/V enthusiasts or for becoming informed consumers. I do the same research for any product I buy, and especially when any substantial amount of money is involved.
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post #355 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 12:15 PM
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Good points, and I agree with most of it. Also, didn't mean to come across as you advocating LCD over Plasma. Typing quickly and throwing in a little rant here & there can skew the posting. But Wxman, I really don't think we're all "elitists" for being A/V enthusiasts or for becoming informed consumers. I do the same research for any product I buy, and especially when any substantial amount of money is involved.
I didn't mean for the elitists to come off as derogatory. A poor choice of words. Perhaps we are connoisseurs of video and audio. We do our research first and want to have the best we can afford.
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post #356 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 05:25 PM
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I'm an avs newb but I'll give you a perspective as somebody who saw a lot of ignorant people buy HDTVs that I'm friends with. And I was quite ignorant myself for a while. Two words: burn in. I know it's not really an issue, but that's what people heard and it got associated with plasma. That and I'm sure ignorant salespeople kept repeating it. It became the HDTV bogeyman when deciding.

Even after explaining to people that it wasn't an issue, I could see them cringing and not wanting to take the risk. Plus with all the marketing buzzwords manufacturers had to come up with to make lcds less worse compared to plasmas (120hz! motionflow! Contrast enhancer!, etc...) the plasma had fewer "features" because it didn't need them...number if words on the box means a better tv, right? /sarcasm

For me, it was the glossy screens and what people said about bright room performance. I have a room with a wall of windows and a brightly lit kitchen behind it that lights up even matte screens. I really wanted to get the samsung plasma with this recent purchase but my wife saw the glossy screen and said no way.
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post #357 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 05:59 PM
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Two words: burn in. I know it's not really an issue, but that's what people heard and it got associated with plasma. That and I'm sure ignorant salespeople kept repeating it. It became the HDTV bogeyman when deciding.
I'd argue it really is an issue. I just bought my first plasma this month, but I'm not in denial about the possibility of burn-in if it is used without caution. For something that supposedly can't happen (according to many posters on this forum) everyone on this subforum sure knows how to try fix it with slides, pixel flipper, etc. When someone posts about buying an open box plasma at a store, everyone tells them to check it for burn-in. Same for buying a used plasma. If it's a myth, why the advice?
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post #358 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd argue it really is an issue. I just bought my first plasma this month, but I'm not in denial about the possibility of burn-in if it is used without caution. For something that supposedly can't happen (according to many posters on this forum) everyone on this subforum sure knows how to try fix it with slides, pixel flipper, etc. When someone posts about buying an open box plasma at a store, everyone tells them to check it for burn-in. Same for buying a used plasma. If it's a myth, why the advice?
Sorry if I got that wrong. Not having ever owned one myself, I'm just going off what I've read. I had not read much about plasma burn-in in recent yerars and was under the impression it largely wasn't a factor anymore as revs had pixel shifters and the panels had improved. In any case, I think it's a significant impediment to people getting a plasma. They don't want to worry about what's on their tv for how long.

http://hometheaterreview.com/plasma-...e-for-concern/
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post #359 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd argue it really is an issue. I just bought my first plasma this month, but I'm not in denial about the possibility of burn-in if it is used without caution. For something that supposedly can't happen (according to many posters on this forum) everyone on this subforum sure knows how to try fix it with slides, pixel flipper, etc. When someone posts about buying an open box plasma at a store, everyone tells them to check it for burn-in. Same for buying a used plasma. If it's a myth, why the advice?
BIG difference in "IR" and "Burn-In".
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post #360 of 418 Old 07-16-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post
BIG difference in "IR" and "Burn-In".
Yes and one is the result of a residual charge and the other is not. IR dissipates fairly quickly. Referring to burn-in as IR is just another head in the clouds misinformation tactic. "IR" that takes hundreds of hours of slides or videos or pixel flipping to minimize is hardly IR.
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