What killed Plasma? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 398 Old 05-31-2014, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Was it ABL aka Dirty Whites?
Was it heat production/energy usage?
Was it Burn In and Image Retention?
Was it a higher failure rate of the power supplies?
Was it a higher cost of producing the panels?
Was it rapid phosphor fade?
Was it lagging behind LCD in producing 1080p resolution panels?
Was it buzzing?
Was it early problems with these, which stuck with them in consumers minds, scaring away consumers of new HDTVs?
Was it cheaper cost of LCD HDTVs in similar sizes?
Was it lack of promotion of the technology by the brands manufacturing them? Touting their superior qualities?
Was it LCDs edge in use as a computer monitor?

What say you?


.

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post #2 of 398 Old 05-31-2014, 08:14 PM
 
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A little bit of this and a little bit of that!
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post #3 of 398 Old 05-31-2014, 08:15 PM
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Such as everything in life nowadays. If it's not profitable, axed.
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post #4 of 398 Old 05-31-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Dirty Whites were a devastating first strike on the Retailer Walls...to the uneducated average consumer. That has to be one of the big ones.

I dont see heat production or energy usage being that big of contributors. A little too nuanced to be much of a contributing factor.

I think Burn In and Image Retention were serious contributors to FUD.

Ive seen real bad Plasma phosphor fade but they fixed that before the masses got there. Still it had me on edge for quite some time.



.
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post #5 of 398 Old 05-31-2014, 09:42 PM
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Costs.  Cheaper these days to build LCD units.  Then it is to continue building tube style sets.  LCD sets are getting better.  But will never match Plasma sets.  At least until 2nd gen 4k/UHD sets become the norm.

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post #6 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 02:42 AM
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The high cost of warranty repairs might have something to do with it.

I notice at Best Buy that their 5-year protection plans for plasma run about 25 to 33% of the price of the TV, but for LCD it's only about 20%. That seems indicative of either a higher failure rate of plasma TVs or repairs being more costly or both.

Anyway, plasma is not dead, and probably won't die until 4K OLED becomes affordable.
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post #7 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 05:16 AM
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Probably the fact that plasmas were a bit more accurate out of the box and not as bright and the average consumer who watches their TV in 102347912361925k colour temp super blue tinge dynamic mode with colours at 190% saturation didn't find the look appealing enough at the local big box store.

What killed plasma for me is that the TV I mainly use in my bedroom is used for computer use and gaming and I don't want to deal with IR which still exists despite what so many try and say. I have a VT20 that back in 2010 IR was supposed to be "a thing of the past" and it has annoying IR. Then all one has to do is a web search for VT60 or ZT60 image retention and see some owners mention so it isn't a "thing of the past"

A shame really as the image plasma gives is obviously fantastic and I'd prefer to have that than what LCD offers even though I am content with LCD. I probably wouldn't be if I used the tv as my movie watching display though. As a JVC RS50 owner I know how much a nice black level adds to the movie watching experience.
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post #8 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

Was it ABL aka Dirty Whites?
Was it heat production/energy usage?
Was it Burn In and Image Retention?
Was it a higher failure rate of the power supplies?
Was it a higher cost of producing the panels?
Was it rapid phosphor fade?
Was it lagging behind LCD in producing 1080p resolution panels?
Was it buzzing?
Was it early problems with these, which stuck with them in consumers minds, scaring away consumers of new HDTVs?
Was it cheaper cost of LCD HDTVs in similar sizes?
Was it lack of promotion of the technology by the brands manufacturing them? Touting their superior qualities?
Was it LCDs edge in use as a computer monitor?

What say you?


.

The arrival of 4K Ultra displays was the final nail in the Plasma coffin. Plasma versions were going to be almost impossible to manufacture.
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post #9 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

The arrival of 4K Ultra displays was the final nail in the Plasma coffin. Plasma versions were going to be almost impossible to manufacture.
Plasma was on it's way out before 4K reared it's head even. Edge lit LED as bad as the tech is was already destroying plasma sales at 1080P. The general consumer was convinced that these edge lit LED's were the best tech to date and that was what most electronic shops were pushing to it's customers. People to this day still believe that plasma's can heat your home, will empty your bank account with it's electric bill and everything you watch will get burned into your screen.
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post #10 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 07:42 AM
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I think it's important to set a few myths straight.

Plasma panels are generally more reliable than LCD panels, you can ask any TV technician today and they will agree. They are more difficult to repair if you do not have the tools and the older ones were horrible for reliability (I'm looking at you, LG! Early LG plasmas had terrible reliability. Newer ones are a lot better.) A lot of modern LED-LCD TV repairs come down to replacing the whole panel (the screen essentially) which is extremely expensive and rarely viable outside of warranty.

Whilst there is more cost in electronics in a plasma panel, in general they cost less to make above about 50" because the panel itself is considerably cheaper than an LCD panel.

4K is possible with plasma at 58" (prototype demonstrated) but Panasonic was unwilling to go forward with this due to the shrinking market share, somewhat understandable.

I seem to remember that while plasma took a while to come out with 1080p panels, they came out in around 2006~2007 (TH-42PZ70BA, TH-58PX850U, etc.) Most LCD TVs were 720p back then, only the newer few were 1080p.
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post #11 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

The general consumer was convinced that these edge lit LED's were the best tech to date and that was what most electronic shops were pushing to it's customers.

Ain't that the truth. It was my first and it will be my last as there is some traces of dirty screen effect. Calibration took most of it out as the TV was badly under saturated.

Quote:
People to this day still believe that plasma's can heat your home, will empty your bank account with it's electric bill and everything you watch will get burned into your screen.

I still see many people saying that today on other forums. Wish I had a time machine from learning from this forum. So I can tell myself never to purchase LCD all those years.

One thing I am amazed, only having owned my first Plasma since February this year. There's hardly any heat off the display. The glass is always room temperature, not hot from the set. There is some heat but it comes and goes from the back, top middle. Nor is there any heat from the back of the set, centre, or edges of the case, 4 - 6 hours a night. No gimmicks/energy saving settings in use. Only luke warm. As for the power, my computers use a lot more than the Plasma. My experience at least, I know the fat PS3 uses more power than the Plasma. Including the heat it used to crank out for years before it failed. The PS3 used to push the room up from 21c to 25 - 26c after a few hours.

Funny that. Look at all the people that had fat PS3's and never really complained until the thinner models. Mention Plasma, taboo.

As for image retention/screen burn... Working with disc calibration patterns for a few hours, nothing really stuck. What did, cleared within 20 - 30 minutes of regular content. I've so far not had to use pixel flippers, screen wipe and what utilities that requires help.

Plus whatever channels I do watch, most have logos what appear to be 10 - 40 transparent grey top left or right.


This forum has been quite an education the past year or two rather than listening to joe bloggs across average forums. Especially all the information thats came from the well known calibrators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post

I seem to remember that while plasma took a while to come out with 1080p panels, they came out in around 2006~2007 (TH-42PZ70BA, TH-58PX850U, etc.) Most LCD TVs were 720p back then, only the newer few were 1080p.

I remember. HD Ready everywhere. It's quite a strange thought. 1080p sets aren't all that old yet it somehow feels they've been on the go for 10 years in your home. To think, I still had a 26" widescreen CRT in use in 2010 until it failed.
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post #12 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 07:59 AM
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Per escape: "Dirty Whites were a devastating first strike on the Retailer Walls...to the uneducated average consumer. That has to be one of the big ones."


This. Just walk into BB, Sears, wherever and stare at the wall. Even when you "know" the Plasma will look infinitely better in your home environment, it can be a bit shocking how lackluster the Plasmas look there in the store. Add in the often worse reflectivity...especially in the early days when LCDs were all matte and there you have it. Heck, we just returned a low end Sammie plasma last night to BB because we could not live with the reflections...a corresponding LED at that price point is much better in that regard., but I have to spend 3x to get a better AR filter on the Sammie....a shame moth-eye isn't around now.
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post #13 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 09:08 AM
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^^^

Agreed. Plasma looks terrible in the super bright store environment. Most people equate bright vivid colors with rich saturation. LCD's look good in scorch mode in a BB while plasma doesn't. People are used to LCD monitors for their computers and trust them. Result: more sales for LCD. Then the prices have been plummeting -- LCD is probably easier to scale due to so much invested in computer monitors -- economy of scale.
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post #14 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 09:42 AM
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Ignorant consumers killed plasma tongue.gif

Everything is trying to kill everything. Like a big line of toppling domino's.

And last but not least - manufacturers themselves killed plasma.

Trying to be all things to all men and all that.

4K is here - but yet DVD's are still here in a big way - and it's killing bluray with their still to this day over saturation of the physical med market. The same people who bought DVD's to watch on their 720p and 1080P displays are still here... The same ones who will buy and watch SD DVD's still because they are cheaper on their eventual new 4K displays - and will say "that looks crap" - " therfore this 4K tv - must be crap"

:banghead:

Unfortunately (sadly) it's not the minority anyone has to worry about.
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post #15 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 10:37 AM
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IMO it's the in store display. At best buy plasmas look AWFUL compared to LEDs on the floor. (Unless it's in the magnolia) People don't realize these LEDs are set to torch mode that you would never set in a house.

I know plasmas are better, but it even made me think twice about going with a plasma. Can't imagine what a typical consumer thinks.

I think even with the stores, there would have been a niche market for plasmas, but the 4k was the ultimate nail in the coffin.

Oh well, I'll have my plasma for a good 3-4 years then 4k will refined and I'll hop on that.

_______
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post #16 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 11:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Ain't that the truth. It was my first and it will be my last as there is some traces of dirty screen effect. Calibration took most of it out as the TV was badly under saturated.
Just wanted to make an aside that DSE affects plasma as well. Every plasma I've owned (4 total) has manifested it to some degree.
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post #17 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 12:21 PM
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The 4K tvs look really good when you see them in Costco or Sears. Even the cheapo Seiki looks good! Its hard to tell the average consumer that plasma is better. Im not repurchasing 4K blurays. Im sick of buying phsyical media in general. DVDs still look good upscaled to 720p @100" on my old Optoma HD70! I cant wait to get a 50ST60. Its the best bang for your buck even used or floor model right now!
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post #18 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Just wanted to make an aside that DSE affects plasma as well. Every plasma I've owned (4 total) has manifested it to some degree.

Most I've read, said it wasn't as bad as LCD. On my LCD it was like a grid out of the box.
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post #19 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 01:15 PM
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Two big contributors: LCDs have generally been better for bright rooms and plasmas aren't available in the smaller sizes. Both of which explain why the 32" set in our living room is an LCD. We have a larger DLP (soon to be replaced by a plasma) in our basement family room, but we know many who only own one TV and it's smaller than 50".
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post #20 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

People are used to LCD monitors for their computers and trust them.
I would not underestimate the impact of this at all. LCDs are in phones, tablets, etc as well. People see LCD as cutting edge tech...
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post #21 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I would not underestimate the impact of this at all. LCDs are in phones, tablets, etc as well. People see LCD as cutting edge tech...

Cutting edge? That's funny. Someone should tell these people that LCD's have been used in computer applications since the 80's.


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post #22 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I remember looking at the Pioneer 8th gen Kuro comparing it the Panasonic plasma from that year on the wall at Best Buy, (before Magnolias) and they had the lights dimmed down over by the TVs at that time (no longer the case).

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post #23 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

Probably the fact that plasmas were a bit more accurate out of the box and not as bright and the average consumer who watches their TV in 102347912361925k colour temp super blue tinge dynamic mode with colours at 190% saturation didn't find the look appealing enough at the local big box store.

What killed plasma for me is that the TV I mainly use in my bedroom is used for computer use and gaming and I don't want to deal with IR which still exists despite what so many try and say. I have a VT20 that back in 2010 IR was supposed to be "a thing of the past" and it has annoying IR. Then all one has to do is a web search for VT60 or ZT60 image retention and see some owners mention so it isn't a "thing of the past"

A shame really as the image plasma gives is obviously fantastic and I'd prefer to have that than what LCD offers even though I am content with LCD. I probably wouldn't be if I used the tv as my movie watching display though. As a JVC RS50 owner I know how much a nice black level adds to the movie watching experience.

Strange how everyones experience is so different, my Panasonic is my main computer monitor and now at over 4000 hours in that role and you could not point out one uniformity issue, technically I shouldn't be using it in that way because its a waste of it's useful life span but I just purchased the 50 inch version for movies so now there is even less reason to "retire" this unit tongue.gif

I was actually very surprised yesterday, when I was testing all my CRTs with some N64 titles I was shocked how quickly they retain images as its something I never looked for before owning a plasma. I should point out all my units are commercial panels but I can't think of one reason other than luck that they should offer any better resistance.
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post #24 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 05:47 PM
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Cheaper LCD displays as well as the iPod effect of main stream consumer that basically means their lack of appreciation of a higher quality image. They see displays in the store set to,roach mode with unrealistic colors and contrast and are naturally at tracked to those. Also the minimal cost increase to take LCDs to 4K where plasma would have been cost and power prohibitive.
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post #25 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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So 4K was the nail in the coffin... mad.gif

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post #26 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 08:28 PM
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It was the CE market race to the bottom. Reputable Mfger''s like Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Fujitsu, etc., etc. could not find profitability in their business model without sacrificing build quality, reliability and superior performance to a level they were not prepared to go. All these companies had been operating in the red for a number of years before throwing in the towel. Panasonic actually had the very best display for every year after the Pioneer Kuro exited the biz, and each one of those years it lost money. Actually, I believe that Panasonic was turning the corner on their losses after the 2013 models, but due to a big management change the top brass decided to pull the plug on the whole CE display market, and concentrate solely on professional/business applications.
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post #27 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

So 4K was the nail in the coffin... mad.gif

I think that's just a conveniently timed excuse they used as they were already planning to exit the plasma business. At most, the 4K thing is just one of many nails in that coffin. Panasonic made some near reference displays in the last years yet they did virtually zero marketing or advertising extolling the virtues of PDP, and they also priced them way lower than they could have or should have - much much lower than the higher end LCDs that didn't even have anywhere near reference picture quality. They could have priced them a few hundred dollars higher and it still would have been a good deal compared to the inferior LCDs.
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post #28 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 10:47 PM
 
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Sounds like it would've been a wash, though. They could charge more to elicit a little more profit for already underutilized factor(ies), but who knows if that would've been enough to free up some more money for marketing. Hollywood did the marketing for them so it turns out (Breaking Bad coming to mind here, where they literally extolled the virtues of the tech in one episode). wink.gif
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post #29 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Panasonic actually had the very best display for every year after the Pioneer Kuro exited the biz
Some would say Panasonic was better every year, it can't be all that hard to be bang on accurate when you have 14 displayable colors per sub as the Pioneer had, that is not a knock on Pioneer it's amazing what they achieved in terms of black level but no amount of spatial, temporal or rotational dither is going to make that image look good up close or with computer generated content. At one point in time industry pros were dumping CRT for Panasonic monitors which could at that time render very similar images in terms of gradation, somewhere a long the line they lost that magic and started messing with error diffusion which enhances edges and lost that really solid look but as far as I know that was after Pioneer had already exited.

Quote:
Only the Panasonic TH-42PWD3 was able to show all 64 steps of the DisplayMate test pattern, and did so without any color tracking errors on any of the 64 steps. It was possible to see a smooth ramp from black to 1% gray, and so on all the way up to 10%. The high values of gray were also visible (from 90% to 100%) without any crushing. Exactly how Panasonic is doing this, I can't say for certain. They do claim in their literature to have an "Advanced Plasma Adaptive Brightness Intensifier", which increases the pixel charge/discharge cycle in darker scenes. That, coupled with a black boost circuit, makes for some monitor-quality images.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010303074710/http://www.projectorexpert.com/pages/plasma3.htm

You can easily pull up similar statements every year in the plasma history but that is from 2001 tongue.gif
 
 
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post #30 of 398 Old 06-01-2014, 10:53 PM
 
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I really hate that vivid mode ,family and friends use LCD and they always have those LCD on vivid mode ,last time a friend visit me to see a fight and he ask to put my calibrated tv in guess what? vivid mode... mad.gif he look at me and said oh!!! wow!!! that's better....



guys the room was dark... mad.gif
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