HDTVtest Flat-Panel Faceoff Crowns Panasonic Plasma as Best TV - Page 6 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 163Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 02:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 349
David Katzmaier, ISF certified calibrator and Senior Editor at CNET:

Quote:
The mid level price and outstanding quality of the Panasonic TC-PST60 series make it our strongest TV recommendation ever.
I've written TV reviews for more than 10 years, but I'm pretty sure this one is the most important. I'll cut to the chase: if you value picture quality, don't have money to burn, and don't game seriously enough to worry about input lag , you should buy the Panasonic TC-PST60.

Geoffrey Morrison Sound&Vision:

Quote:
The ST60's combination of low black level and high brightness results in an incredible looking image....This was one of the easiest reviews I have ever carried out. The ST60 simply produces a gorgeous picture. High performance, low cost, big size, stunning.

Unfortunately Plasma is on the way out, but it's certainly has nothing to do with picture quality. I have read numerous reviews of LCD/LED TV's and although they have fared very well, most professional calibrators still prefer plasmas and continue to use them as their reference sets.

Ian
gus738 and rcapprotti like this.

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 02:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
sorry, i just meant that the number of each type doesn't really tell the whole story. i have more lcds, but prefer plasma all the way. it's just that lcd's seem to handle the 'whatever works' market better, haha.


i think it's more interesting to see what everybody's 'main display' is. instead of adding up all the ones they just bought because they were cheap.
That's not unreasonable being on an AV forum and all . When I bought the Sony for my room I was thinking about another Plasma (picture quality and all ) but in the brighter rooms with the Sony, LG and Toshiba LCD's here they are a lot better than the discount LCD brands which to me are an unacceptable compromise altogether .

Just too much sunlight in the morning or daytime and evenings sometimes in the house so that was a consideration .

In Calif the suns out quite a bit especially in the delta here and I've never been one for not allowing sun light in during the day but if I want to enjoy a BD or watch a good movie from the hdd's or Netflix HD I can draw the blinds and watch it on the plasma or wait for sunset .

Wouldn't mind a big FP set up in a dedicated room or theater that's no lie but that's above my pay grade so being retired and all it's working out fine for now . An OLED might be the thing also when the prices come down and the 4K/2K thing gets sorted out with OLED .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 06-23-2014 at 03:31 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #153 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 03:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
David Katzmaier, ISF certified calibrator and Senior Editor at CNET:




Geoffrey Morrison Sound&Vision:




Unfortunately Plasma is on the way out, but it's certainly has nothing to do with picture quality. I have read numerous reviews of LCD/LED TV's and although they have fared very well, most professional calibrators still prefer plasmas and continue to use them as their reference sets.

Ian
I read that a few times I bought the Sammie 60F5300 instead it's decent for for what it is they didn't have any 60" S60's in stock when I bought mine at BB not to mention it was a good sale at the time on the Sammie PDP .

I looked at the Panny TC VT/ZT XX sets in the Magnolia room and they made a lasting impression that's a fact those things are well beyond good !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 06-23-2014 at 03:29 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #154 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 04:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
there is a difference between newer and better. led is just newer. it's probably an improvement on CCFL, but not plasma
And better since it combines the best of Plasma and CCFL-LCD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
the yellow subpixel is interesting if you want to discuss marketing. it's just nonsense as far as a 'technology' though.
yes, you can make a crappy backlit led, yes you can make a decent edge-lit led. but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant. it's still VERY rare to see a 'good' edgelit LED, that makes it significant imo.
You can do poorly or well with either, so it's kind of irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
what are you talking about? plasma run the full spectrum from uber cheap low quality(the 720p sets you refer to) all the way up the best displays on the market. the lack of options is one thing, but we could argue the chicken/egg thing on that all day. you'll say there's hardly any options because nobody is buying them, I'd say nobody is buying because there's a lack of options... at the end of the day, i can and will admit the current market offers a lot more choices for LCD, but i won't admit that plasma is marketed only at the ppl who don't care, those are exactly the ppl that are buying all the lcd's. plasma is marketed far more towards the 'videophile' that wants the best picture quality at any price range. plasma has always been a choice of performance over convenience. lcd is a choice of convenience over performance.
So take Best Buy (since Crutchfield has no large plasmas at all). They have two large Plasmas (65"). They are absurdly expensive, with the cheaper one being $5k. You can get a nice 65" LED for $1600, a 4K LED is $3300. The vast majority of the plasmas are low-cost, low-end stuff, and the only ones that are even in the large range are absurdly expensive, and don't scale upwards into the 70-85" range like the LEDs do. For $6k, you can get a 75" 4K TV. Plasma at the mid- or high-end of the market is a joke. How do you justify a $5k display that does the same thing as a $1600 display and where the high-end audience is going to 4K anyways? That's a really hard argument. It just doesn't add up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
totally agreed, except it's not 'plasma' it's 'tv'. nobody is replacing their front projector with an LED either. i think it's funny that 65" is 'tiny' but 70" is ok? or are you talking about the 3 or 4 models larger than that? cause imo, they are both 'tiny' compared to the 120" screen i use with my projector. and in the projector world, i'm one of the guys with the small screens. 130-140" are pretty common.
The LCDs are available up to 85" now, but at that point, you'd be better off doing a screen half again as big for half the price with a projector... when 4K projectors with 4K content come out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
many would, and have argued that Netflix isn't even doing a 'good job' with 1080p content. resolution is only a small part of the picture. crappy UHD is not going to be better than bluray. your 'wow' factor and mine are clearly different. i'm not 'wowed' by resolution when it's totally lost in poor contrast, artifacting, etc. i'm wowed by an image with amazing blacks, and contrast that looks incredibly life like
Netflix's 1080p isn't Blu-ray quality like VUDU HDX, although it looks darn good in it's own right. 2160p gives a huge WOW factor, due to resolution. As long as you can't see the compression artifacts, the WOW factor will remain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
totally agree, this is my point. FP is the future of high resolution sources. it's not practical to install 100"+ screens in most homes. and ppl are already sitting further than 'ideal' for 1080p based on preference. 10yrs ago, i remember sitting away from my TV because if i sat closer the picture didn't look good. today i'm sitting away from my tv because i don't want to be closer. i want to have that space. so i just don't see where there's a market for UHD flatscreens. the TV's either need to be too big to fit inside your room, or you need to sit much closer than you want to anyway. still, we're all going to do it eventually, cause why not right? i just don't want to give up what i love about plasma, to get what i don't need about UHD(with an LED)

agreed. that's a situation where it could be justified.
Yeah, there's a market, but I think a lot of people are going to buy them, and not get much out of them, and then poo-poo the technology because they are sitting 15' away from a 65" screen, and not getting much, if anything, out of the additional resolution. In my 70/80" 7-8' example, people will get a lot out of the additional resolution, but it depends on the room layout. A lot of people who have the money to buy 4K right now also have bigger living rooms than that. My preference, coming from the POV of image quality, cinematic experience, and audio effect, is to have the couch in the middle of the room so that I have room behind me for the rear surrounds, which also gets me a lot closer to the screen, and gives me some storage in a piece of furniture behind the couch, but for some reason, people love to put couches against walls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i can respect this. i often do this with streaming vs bluray. i just don't agree with it personally. i don't like watching stuff in 'lower quality' and have it ruined because of that. but for me, 1080p is not what would ruin it. before i upgraded my projector, i would watch a lot of stuff on my f8500 because i felt like watching it on my projector wasn't giving me the full experience. it had pretty brutal black/contrast and darker movies just looked bad.
I'm not sure I follow. I'm not saying that 1080p would ruin OITNB (not in 4K yet, but supposedly it was shot in 4K) or House of Cards or Breaking Bad, BUT knowing that it's available in 4K, I want to wait to have 4K to get the best possible experience out of it.
BiggAW is offline  
post #155 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 532
That ignore feature is hidden but once complete it is oh so satisfying. Some of the misinformation posted here about Plasma is truly hilarious. But seriously I sit in awe of this pinnacle of LED Edge Lit technology:


http://www.cnet.com/products/sharp-q...lc-60le847u/2/


You want inky blacks here ya go


Black luminance (0%)0.0171Average
StinDaWg and gus738 like this.

65VT60(Calibrated by Chad B)
55ST60(Calibrated by Chunon)
Darbee DVP5000
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey

Last edited by chunon; 06-23-2014 at 05:21 PM.
chunon is online now  
post #156 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
That's not unreasonable being on an AV forum and all . When I bought the Sony for my room I was thinking about another Plasma (picture quality and all ) but in the brighter rooms with the Sony, LG and Toshiba LCD's here they are a lot better than the discount LCD brands which to me are an unacceptable compromise altogether .

Just too much sunlight in the morning or daytime and evenings sometimes in the house so that was a consideration .

In Calif the suns out quite a bit especially in the delta here and I've never been one for not allowing sun light in during the day but if I want to enjoy a BD or watch a good movie from the hdd's or Netflix HD I can draw the blinds and watch it on the plasma or wait for sunset .

Wouldn't mind a big FP set up in a dedicated room or theater that's no lie but that's above my pay grade so being retired and all it's working out fine for now . An OLED might be the thing also when the prices come down and the 4K/2K thing gets sorted out with OLED .
just fyi, but currently, oleds cost more than what it takes to get a 'good quality'(read plasma ish picture) projector and screen combo. unless you're talking about the reno costs to the room, then I understand completely. that can get out of hand pretty quick, haha. if projection is something you want, don't give up on it. it's more and more practical every year
fierce_gt is offline  
post #157 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
nope. good ventilation, and the ability to 'seal off' (see pic below) the shower helps I guess(but I don't always close it up). we used to have a hot tub in that room instead of it being a bathroom, so maybe the ventilation is better than normal? maybe us canucks have cooler showers? haha.


actually, the biggest issue I had was that the TV's speakers are not on the front, so it's actually louder in the hallway than it is in the bathroom, if using the built-in speakers(which is only the case when watching OTA stuff). it's been in there for almost 4yrs now



I'm not surprise I have three friends have TV's in there bathroom
Chise is offline  
post #158 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 06:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
And better since it combines the best of Plasma and CCFL-LCD.
no, it's a compromise. it doesn't offer the same blacks, the same contrast, the same viewing angle. if you want to watch movies in the dark, there's still no LED that can outdo a plasma.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
You can do poorly or well with either, so it's kind of irrelevant.
I don't see how we're going to settle this one. seems like it's a difference of how we think. imo, if 1 out of 100 things is good, that product is bad. 99% of the time it's not acceptable. if 99 out of 100 is good, then that product is good. 99% of the time it's acceptable. you seem to be arguing that both products are equally good, because at least once they were both acceptable, and both unacceptable.


the truth is, edgelighting is inferior. it takes a lot more engineering to make edgelighting work well, and the vast majority of edgelit LED exhibit some noticeable uniformity issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
So take Best Buy (since Crutchfield has no large plasmas at all). They have two large Plasmas (65"). They are absurdly expensive, with the cheaper one being $5k. You can get a nice 65" LED for $1600, a 4K LED is $3300. The vast majority of the plasmas are low-cost, low-end stuff, and the only ones that are even in the large range are absurdly expensive, and don't scale upwards into the 70-85" range like the LEDs do. For $6k, you can get a 75" 4K TV. Plasma at the mid- or high-end of the market is a joke. How do you justify a $5k display that does the same thing as a $1600 display and where the high-end audience is going to 4K anyways? That's a really hard argument. It just doesn't add up.
that's really unfortunate that your market has shunned plasma so much. last year when I bought my f8500, there was a few great options(st60, vt60, zt60, f8500) that all looked vastly superior to the top dollar LED's I looked at(f8000, whatever that funky 4k sony with the huge speakers was...) price wise, the st60 was world's cheaper, the f8500/f8000/vt60 were in the same ball park, and the zt60 and 4k sony were pretty expensive. all were 64/65" models except the sony was 55"
I guess the other half of my debate is I don't believe there are any 'nice' LED's for 1600. and I certainly don't believe there are any that offer better picture than say the Samsung f5300(which should be even cheaper than 1600). now, I'm not going to justify a 5k display, because I'm not aware of any plasmas selling for that much, but I'd much rather spend the 2800 I did to get an f8500(64") that I actually enjoy watching, than to spend half that much on an LED I'd have to return because I can't stand the clouding on it. the other half of the argument is that I don't live on a piece of paper. I live in the real world, and the real world difference between my f8500 and even the f8000(probably the logical comparison) is huge for me. just because they both display a 1080p image doesn't mean they do the same thing. i'll post two photo comparison I did when I upgraded my displays this year. unfortunately, none of them are LED's, so you'll poke holes in the argument, but I'm just trying to show what a difference QUALITY can make. especially when it comes to contrast and blacks.


photo 1. old plasma vs new plasma. imo, the old plasma for 1000bux was 1000bux wasted, but the 2800 for the new plasma was money well spent. the image is overexposed to really highlight the difference in the shadows. my camera is not able to capture the full contrast of the f8500, so I had to do this in order to not crush the blacks(with the camera, not the tv)



the following two pictures are when I upgraded my projector. I had to flip sides of the scene, cause honestly you can't even believe how much is missing in the shadows of the old projector. again, they are both displaying the same image, but they are not doing the same thing. there's no way you can say they are equally enjoyable to watch. this is why the blacks and contrast of a plasma is SO critical, and why despite all the improvements LED has had over the years, us plasma guys are still saying 'so what, they STILL haven't fixed the important part yet'




Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
The LCDs are available up to 85" now, but at that point, you'd be better off doing a screen half again as big for half the price with a projector... when 4K projectors with 4K content come out...
plasmas were available in 100" at one point too. it's still that last part. at these sizes it starts to make more sense to do a projector, unless you're really capped at 70-85" for some reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Netflix's 1080p isn't Blu-ray quality like VUDU HDX, although it looks darn good in it's own right. 2160p gives a huge WOW factor, due to resolution. As long as you can't see the compression artifacts, the WOW factor will remain.
if you have a good display, one of the side effects is that it shows you the difference between a good source and a bad one. it's kind of like how you'd never be able to hear the difference between a 128kb/s MP3 and a CD listening on a pair of dollar store ear buds, but it becomes very obvious when listening through some high end headphones.
the difference between bluray and HD rips is quite noticeable on both my f8500 and jvc x35. I've gotten PLENTY of 'wow' factor from both my displays due to their quality. I honestly don't think I'd get more out of it personally unless that quality was maintained 100% with the increase of resolution. at this point, that doesn't seem to be an option for UHD, yet. when we get full bitrate, uncompressed UHD, i'll gladly eat my words


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Yeah, there's a market, but I think a lot of people are going to buy them, and not get much out of them, and then poo-poo the technology because they are sitting 15' away from a 65" screen, and not getting much, if anything, out of the additional resolution. In my 70/80" 7-8' example, people will get a lot out of the additional resolution, but it depends on the room layout. A lot of people who have the money to buy 4K right now also have bigger living rooms than that. My preference, coming from the POV of image quality, cinematic experience, and audio effect, is to have the couch in the middle of the room so that I have room behind me for the rear surrounds, which also gets me a lot closer to the screen, and gives me some storage in a piece of furniture behind the couch, but for some reason, people love to put couches against walls.
I actually found this viewpoint kind of interesting. I never thought of the possibility of ppl getting tricked into buying one due to marketing, and then being upset and bashing the technology. I always just assumed that anybody silly enough to get tricked into a purchase by marketing would continue to believe and propagate that hype after purchase.
as for room setup, this is obviously very personal. my room is about 30feet deep, my front row of seating is about 12" from my projection screen, and 14" from my plasma. rear row is around 20". I consider my room small for home theater, and I really REALLY want to get something larger and more open so I can do a larger screen and move the seating away from the screen some more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I'm not sure I follow. I'm not saying that 1080p would ruin OITNB (not in 4K yet, but supposedly it was shot in 4K) or House of Cards or Breaking Bad, BUT knowing that it's available in 4K, I want to wait to have 4K to get the best possible experience out of it.
'ruin' was probably the wrong word. I'm agreeing, that when you watch something for the first time, it's kind of nice to know you're getting the most out of it as possible. I would never watch a new movie on my cell phone or laptop for example. but I don't mind rewatching stuff on either.


I guess the confusing part was that I don't think 4K is the best option right now. given the choice between 1080p on a plasma, oled, or LCOS projector or 4k on an edgelit LED, I feel like the 1080p actually provides me more. i'll get more detail in the shadows, i'll get more immersed in the experience(no clouding to bring me out of it), and the extra resolution of 4k probably wouldn't be noticed at my preferred viewing distance anyway(my projector screen is set up for what's a comfortable viewing size, not what's the closest I can sit before I see pixels). but nevertheless, I agree with the idea that i'll often avoid watching things I haven't seen yet, until I can watch them on my preferred display/format.
gus738 likes this.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #159 of 211 Old 06-23-2014, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
just fyi, but currently, oleds cost more than what it takes to get a 'good quality'(read plasma ish picture) projector and screen combo. unless you're talking about the reno costs to the room, then I understand completely. that can get out of hand pretty quick, haha. if projection is something you want, don't give up on it. it's more and more practical every year
OH no I'm talking about if a decent OLED gets lower in price and if they shake out in 4K later No renovations for me
been there done that with home remodels no thanks . This one was turn key except for the studio first one like that it's fine . I think about the f85000 now and then and ofc the Panny VT /ZT sets that cost to much if you can find one
but for now I will watch what I have .

I'm not so sure I have the appropriate space for an FP set up in the living areas that would usually require a dedicated room and the music prod/recording studio takes up that space and not to mention it's a great place to listen to music
being a treated room and all with decent equipment speakers and placement .

I'm good with the 60" for now but that could change it usually does . I have a 2013 40" in the bedroom and I'm already contemplating a 50" in there you know how that goes I'm sure .

Nice FP set up there and an F8500 too ! life is good to you now enjoy it !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 06-23-2014 at 10:27 PM.
tubetwister is offline  
post #160 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 02:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
OH no I'm talking about if a decent OLED gets lower in price and if they shake out in 4K later No renovations for me
been there done that with home remodels no thanks . This one was turn key except for the studio first one like that it's fine . I think about the f85000 now and then and ofc the Panny VT /ZT sets that cost to much if you can find one
but for now I will watch what I have .

I'm not so sure I have the appropriate space for an FP set up in the living areas that would usually require a dedicated room and the music prod/recording studio takes up that space and not to mention it's a great place to listen to music
being a treated room and all with decent equipment speakers and placement .

I'm good with the 60" for now but that could change it usually does . I have a 2013 40" in the bedroom and I'm already contemplating a 50" in there you know how that goes I'm sure .

Nice FP set up there and an F8500 too ! life is good to you now enjoy it !
no worries, I'd just hate for you to not enjoy a FP system because you thought 3k would only get you garbage.


and yeah, I'm very happy with my current video equipment. finally learned my lesson it's better to buy quality once than to buy economy many times
fierce_gt is offline  
post #161 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 04:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tubetwister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sacramento delta N. Cal. US Don't trust any air I can't see ☺
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
no worries, I'd just hate for you to not enjoy a FP system because you thought 3k would only get you garbage.


and yeah, I'm very happy with my current video equipment. finally learned my lesson it's better to buy quality once than to buy economy many times
That's the smart move for sure !
gus738 likes this.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
tubetwister is offline  
post #162 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 06:25 PM
Newbie
 
Eric86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa...for now.
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I'm confused here. I thought Panasonic was dumping their plasma line?
Eric86 is offline  
post #163 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 06:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
no, it's a compromise. it doesn't offer the same blacks, the same contrast, the same viewing angle. if you want to watch movies in the dark, there's still no LED that can outdo a plasma.

I don't see how we're going to settle this one. seems like it's a difference of how we think. imo, if 1 out of 100 things is good, that product is bad. 99% of the time it's not acceptable. if 99 out of 100 is good, then that product is good. 99% of the time it's acceptable. you seem to be arguing that both products are equally good, because at least once they were both acceptable, and both unacceptable.

the truth is, edgelighting is inferior. it takes a lot more engineering to make edgelighting work well, and the vast majority of edgelit LED exhibit some noticeable uniformity issues.
We're not going to settle this one. You're a plasma snob, I'm not. I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
that's really unfortunate that your market has shunned plasma so much. last year when I bought my f8500, there was a few great options(st60, vt60, zt60, f8500) that all looked vastly superior to the top dollar LED's I looked at(f8000, whatever that funky 4k sony with the huge speakers was...) price wise, the st60 was world's cheaper, the f8500/f8000/vt60 were in the same ball park, and the zt60 and 4k sony were pretty expensive. all were 64/65" models except the sony was 55"
I guess the other half of my debate is I don't believe there are any 'nice' LED's for 1600. and I certainly don't believe there are any that offer better picture than say the Samsung f5300(which should be even cheaper than 1600). now, I'm not going to justify a 5k display, because I'm not aware of any plasmas selling for that much, but I'd much rather spend the 2800 I did to get an f8500(64") that I actually enjoy watching, than to spend half that much on an LED I'd have to return because I can't stand the clouding on it. the other half of the argument is that I don't live on a piece of paper. I live in the real world, and the real world difference between my f8500 and even the f8000(probably the logical comparison) is huge for me. just because they both display a 1080p image doesn't mean they do the same thing. i'll post two photo comparison I did when I upgraded my displays this year. unfortunately, none of them are LED's, so you'll poke holes in the argument, but I'm just trying to show what a difference QUALITY can make. especially when it comes to contrast and blacks.
Yeah, you can get a nice 65" for $1600. Although at this point, it's tough to even look at 1080p displays when you know that the 4K ones are coming in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
photo 1. old plasma vs new plasma. imo, the old plasma for 1000bux was 1000bux wasted, but the 2800 for the new plasma was money well spent. the image is overexposed to really highlight the difference in the shadows. my camera is not able to capture the full contrast of the f8500, so I had to do this in order to not crush the blacks(with the camera, not the tv)

the following two pictures are when I upgraded my projector. I had to flip sides of the scene, cause honestly you can't even believe how much is missing in the shadows of the old projector. again, they are both displaying the same image, but they are not doing the same thing. there's no way you can say they are equally enjoyable to watch. this is why the blacks and contrast of a plasma is SO critical, and why despite all the improvements LED has had over the years, us plasma guys are still saying 'so what, they STILL haven't fixed the important part yet'

plasmas were available in 100" at one point too. it's still that last part. at these sizes it starts to make more sense to do a projector, unless you're really capped at 70-85" for some reason.
Right. Larger sizes make sense to do a projector. Not sure what you're trying to show with those pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
if you have a good display, one of the side effects is that it shows you the difference between a good source and a bad one. it's kind of like how you'd never be able to hear the difference between a 128kb/s MP3 and a CD listening on a pair of dollar store ear buds, but it becomes very obvious when listening through some high end headphones.
the difference between bluray and HD rips is quite noticeable on both my f8500 and jvc x35. I've gotten PLENTY of 'wow' factor from both my displays due to their quality. I honestly don't think I'd get more out of it personally unless that quality was maintained 100% with the increase of resolution. at this point, that doesn't seem to be an option for UHD, yet. when we get full bitrate, uncompressed UHD, i'll gladly eat my words
Nothing is uncompressed. Blu-Ray is MPEG-4 AVC, and compresses something like a gigabit down to 25mbps. I haven't seen Netflix in 4K, but based on what I've seen of their SuperHD, I'd imagine that 4K Netflix would blow Blu-ray out of the water.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I actually found this viewpoint kind of interesting. I never thought of the possibility of ppl getting tricked into buying one due to marketing, and then being upset and bashing the technology. I always just assumed that anybody silly enough to get tricked into a purchase by marketing would continue to believe and propagate that hype after purchase.
as for room setup, this is obviously very personal. my room is about 30feet deep, my front row of seating is about 12" from my projection screen, and 14" from my plasma. rear row is around 20". I consider my room small for home theater, and I really REALLY want to get something larger and more open so I can do a larger screen and move the seating away from the screen some more.
I wouldn't go and say that they are "tricked". A 65" 4K TV is going to be great if you're sitting 7' away from it. But the people buying 65" 4K TVs are probably going to sit 15' away from it and then trash 4K because 1080p was already above the resolution their eyeballs could make out at that distance. Its amazing how people just don't get how big a TV should be to create a cinematic experience. My co-workers make fun of the THX guidelines for screen sizing as if they are ridiculous to recommend sitting 7-10' away from a 70" TV, even though that's what it takes to get a truly cinematic and immersive experience.

Your setup is rather large. Even a lot of the HTs on here aren't that big. It all depends on what you have to work with, but a 15x15 room can give you a great experience with a 120" or so front projection screen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
'ruin' was probably the wrong word. I'm agreeing, that when you watch something for the first time, it's kind of nice to know you're getting the most out of it as possible. I would never watch a new movie on my cell phone or laptop for example. but I don't mind rewatching stuff on either.

I guess the confusing part was that I don't think 4K is the best option right now. given the choice between 1080p on a plasma, oled, or LCOS projector or 4k on an edgelit LED, I feel like the 1080p actually provides me more. i'll get more detail in the shadows, i'll get more immersed in the experience(no clouding to bring me out of it), and the extra resolution of 4k probably wouldn't be noticed at my preferred viewing distance anyway(my projector screen is set up for what's a comfortable viewing size, not what's the closest I can sit before I see pixels). but nevertheless, I agree with the idea that i'll often avoid watching things I haven't seen yet, until I can watch them on my preferred display/format.
4K is the way things are going. Sure, it's not mainstream yet because it costs a lot more, but from what I've heard it looks AMAZING. The only thing I've seen in 4K is the demo loop on a store 4K TV. Right now, given that there is no way to get 4K content to a 4K projector, and the few 4K projectors are absurdly expensive, I would say that a 120" front projection screen is going to give a better experience for most things than a 75" 4K TV, but when the projectors are available in 4K, it's going to be amazing!
BiggAW is offline  
post #164 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 10,128
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 661 Post(s)
Liked: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric86 View Post
I'm confused here. I thought Panasonic was dumping their plasma line?
They did, many months ago. Apparently there is still some supply of them in Europe whereas there isn't in the US.
Stereodude is offline  
post #165 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 06:48 PM
Newbie
 
Eric86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa...for now.
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
They did, many months ago. Apparently there is still some supply of them in Europe whereas there isn't in the US.
Ahh, thanks for clearing that up!
Eric86 is offline  
post #166 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 07:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Latinoheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 1,911
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 216 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
They did, many months ago. Apparently there is still some supply of them in Europe whereas there isn't in the US.
Last week I went to a nearby Future shop and London drugs here in Canada and they had the last ST60, Vt60 and ZT60. They were floor models. I was tempted on the ZT but they were asking a ridiculous price for it.

TV - Panasonic 55GT50 THX, Main Speakers - Klipsch Gallery G28's, Center Channel- Klipsch RC-52, Sub-Klipsch Sub 12, Surround - Klipsch RS-52 II Bluray/Game - HTPC/PS3, Receiver - Onkyo RC-360, HTPC- Intel Core i3, HDMI,Windows 7,XBMC,Bluray,7 TB, Video Processor -Darbee

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...hp?cat=2236715
Latinoheat is offline  
post #167 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 09:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
Last week I went to a nearby Future shop and London drugs here in Canada and they had the last ST60, Vt60 and ZT60. They were floor models. I was tempted on the ZT but they were asking a ridiculous price for it.
as recently as about a month ago, visions had the vt60 and zt60 listed online. it was in-store purchase only, but clearly there were a few around not floor models. I think the zt60 was only in 65" and the vt only in 55" though. both about 1000bux off MSRP!


we may get ripped off when they are new, but at least in Canada the price ALWAYS goes down when on clearance
fierce_gt is offline  
post #168 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 09:42 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
no, it's a compromise. it doesn't offer the same blacks, the same contrast, the same viewing angle. if you want to watch movies in the dark, there's still no LED that can outdo a plasma. *snip*
Your stamina would be the envy of any woman. I salute you, sir.
StinDaWg likes this.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #169 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 09:44 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
We're not going to settle this one. You're a plasma snob, I'm not. I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price...
Translated: "I can't handle the truth, so I'm going to resort to name-calling."
vinnie97 is offline  
post #170 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 09:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
We're not going to settle this one. You're a plasma snob, I'm not. I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price...
agreed. if you think it's the same thing, there's nothing worth arguing about. I happen to see a difference between cheap tv(plasma and led) vs high end tvs(plasma and led). I also see a difference between high end plasma and high end led. I in fact bought the 'cheaper' f8500 because I didn't think the vt60 or zt60 was THAT much better. I'm not made of money, but the worst purchases I've made have been when I underbought, and immediately regretted it. now I try to buy the best I can afford, and just buy less often.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Yeah, you can get a nice 65" for $1600. Although at this point, it's tough to even look at 1080p displays when you know that the 4K ones are coming in.
I didn't see any when I was shopping. the cheapest 'nice' tv I found was the st60. I'm just expecting more I guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Right. Larger sizes make sense to do a projector. Not sure what you're trying to show with those pictures.
just trying to show the difference between a cheap tv and an expensive tv and why I believe it's worth buying a high end tv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Nothing is uncompressed. Blu-Ray is MPEG-4 AVC, and compresses something like a gigabit down to 25mbps. I haven't seen Netflix in 4K, but based on what I've seen of their SuperHD, I'd imagine that 4K Netflix would blow Blu-ray out of the water.
it's hard to make a judgement like this unless you have a really good display. I can't really see the difference between bluray and HD streamed video on the cheaper TV's I own, but on the f8500 and x35 it's pretty obvious. for me, it's about smooth gradation mostly. I hate that 'digital' look you get with compressed signals, or cheap TV's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I wouldn't go and say that they are "tricked". A 65" 4K TV is going to be great if you're sitting 7' away from it. But the people buying 65" 4K TVs are probably going to sit 15' away from it and then trash 4K because 1080p was already above the resolution their eyeballs could make out at that distance. Its amazing how people just don't get how big a TV should be to create a cinematic experience. My co-workers make fun of the THX guidelines for screen sizing as if they are ridiculous to recommend sitting 7-10' away from a 70" TV, even though that's what it takes to get a truly cinematic and immersive experience.
we are tricked by marketing all the time. if somebody buys a 4k tv expecting a huge improvement when watching a 55" from 15' away, they were tricked into thinking. or else they have eagle vision, and they'd still be happy when they get it home.
either they bought the right tv because they did their research, or they bought the wrong tv because they were tricked by marketing into thinking it was better.
but yeah, the guidelines seem way out of line until you get used to it. maybe 4k will get ppl to at least accept 1080p THX recommended viewing distances, haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Your setup is rather large. Even a lot of the HTs on here aren't that big. It all depends on what you have to work with, but a 15x15 room can give you a great experience with a 120" or so front projection screen...
my real problem is width. 120" 16:9 screen is literally 5inches less than the width of my room. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, I do appreciate what I have and enjoy it. I'm just saying IF I were to make a change, it'd be to sit farther away, not closer. even with a 12' viewing distance, it feels like a 'small theater' to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
4K is the way things are going. Sure, it's not mainstream yet because it costs a lot more, but from what I've heard it looks AMAZING. The only thing I've seen in 4K is the demo loop on a store 4K TV. Right now, given that there is no way to get 4K content to a 4K projector, and the few 4K projectors are absurdly expensive, I would say that a 120" front projection screen is going to give a better experience for most things than a 75" 4K TV, but when the projectors are available in 4K, it's going to be amazing!
there's a couple 4k projectors from sony. they sound mighty impressive, but are crazy expensive compared to the 1080p counterparts. remember this quote, "I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price"? well that's how I feel right now about 1080p vs 4k. when the prices even out, and content is actually filmed in 4k(right now it's almost all done in 2k), edited in 4k, and distributed in 4k, i'll hopefully be in a position to adopt 4k as well. nothing against 4k, I just feel there's more important things to fix first.
gus738 likes this.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #171 of 211 Old 06-24-2014, 09:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Liked: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
Your stamina would be the envy of any woman. I salute you, sir.
I'm a teacher by profession. explaining the same thing 20x is pretty much second nature to me at this point, haha.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #172 of 211 Old 06-25-2014, 03:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
it's hard to make a judgement like this unless you have a really good display. I can't really see the difference between bluray and HD streamed video on the cheaper TV's I own, but on the f8500 and x35 it's pretty obvious. for me, it's about smooth gradation mostly. I hate that 'digital' look you get with compressed signals, or cheap TV's.
I'd definitely have to see it to judge it, but SuperHD, while not Blu-ray/HDX quality is pretty darn impressive in it's own right. It's a lot closer to Blu-ray/HDX than it is to Comcast tri-mux channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
we are tricked by marketing all the time. if somebody buys a 4k tv expecting a huge improvement when watching a 55" from 15' away, they were tricked into thinking. or else they have eagle vision, and they'd still be happy when they get it home. either they bought the right tv because they did their research, or they bought the wrong tv because they were tricked by marketing into thinking it was better.
but yeah, the guidelines seem way out of line until you get used to it. maybe 4k will get ppl to at least accept 1080p THX recommended viewing distances, haha.

my real problem is width. 120" 16:9 screen is literally 5inches less than the width of my room. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, I do appreciate what I have and enjoy it. I'm just saying IF I were to make a change, it'd be to sit farther away, not closer. even with a 12' viewing distance, it feels like a 'small theater' to me.
They weren't tricked unless the manufacturer recommends viewing distances that make no sense (like a 55" set at 15'). The 55" 4K set will produce excellent images when it is used in the right application, like sitting 6' away from it. I can definitely see the THX guidelines being right at 1080p based on Blu-ray/HDX. I'm on the very upper limit of them (60" at 9') due to Comcast. There's only so much that the DVDO EDGE can do to untangle the mess that Comcast send down. Since it's all based on viewing angles, the distances are still valid for 4K, but the detail will be much better than with 1080p at the same distance.

Fair enough, but most people, even here, would think of that as a pretty decent sized room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
there's a couple 4k projectors from sony. they sound mighty impressive, but are crazy expensive compared to the 1080p counterparts. remember this quote, "I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price"? well that's how I feel right now about 1080p vs 4k. when the prices even out, and content is actually filmed in 4k(right now it's almost all done in 2k), edited in 4k, and distributed in 4k, i'll hopefully be in a position to adopt 4k as well. nothing against 4k, I just feel there's more important things to fix first.
Yeah, I think those PJs work with the flying saucer for movies, but AFAIK, there is no way to get 4K Netflix onto them yet. Since the majority of the 4K content is on Netflix, that's a big problem. Netflix already has a bunch of shows that were shot and produced in 4K, and basically every movie for the last few years has been shot and produced in 4K. Then, stuff that's pre-digital has mostly been scanned at 8K for Blu-ray, so those can easily be converted to 4K, and some already have for Netflix's collection. The last piece of the puzzle are the displays, decoding, and HDMI 2.0, literally the last 6' of the distribution chain. Most users that would adopt 4K at this point have the bandwidth to support several HEVC-encoded 15.9mbps streams at once. Although early adopters probably have really good home networks, with at least ABGN900 if not AC1300 or higher or hardwired gigabit, I think in a couple of years, the trickiest part of the puzzle will be the home network, as a lot of people's wireless setups just plain suck, or they have DSL or U-Verse that just doesn't have that much bandwidth.
BiggAW is offline  
post #173 of 211 Old 06-25-2014, 04:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
We're not going to settle this one. You're a plasma snob, I'm not. I'm happy getting the same thing you're getting for 1/3 the price...

I'm not a math professor but the last time I checked .0171(Sharp 847) does not equate to .0017(F8500) or .0014(VT60). Obviously your definition of "the same thing" does not line up with most peoples.
DavidHir, StinDaWg, gus738 and 2 others like this.

65VT60(Calibrated by Chad B)
55ST60(Calibrated by Chunon)
Darbee DVP5000
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is online now  
post #174 of 211 Old 06-25-2014, 06:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 10,128
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 661 Post(s)
Liked: 630
What's a factor of 10 between friends?
chunon likes this.
Stereodude is offline  
post #175 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 04:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
i'm not a math professor but the last time i checked .0171(sharp 847) does not equate to .0017(f8500) or .0014(vt60). Obviously your definition of "the same thing" does not line up with most peoples.
huh?
BiggAW is offline  
post #176 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 04:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Chunon listed the black levels for the respective TVs, showing that they are in fact not "the same thing".

We're not plasma snobs, we're listing facts. You're resorting to name calling and just posting nonsense with nothing to back it up.

Before you call me a Plasma snob too, I own 3 LCDs and 2 Plasmas.

And I think you have it backwards, you have to spend 1.5-3x for an LCD to get comparable performance of a good plasma.
StinDaWg, gus738, chunon and 1 others like this.

Last edited by rahzel; 06-26-2014 at 04:53 PM.
rahzel is offline  
post #177 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 05:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 10,128
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 661 Post(s)
Liked: 630
why you throw chip?
Stereodude is offline  
post #178 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 08:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BiggAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post
Chunon listed the black levels for the respective TVs, showing that they are in fact not "the same thing".

We're not plasma snobs, we're listing facts. You're resorting to name calling and just posting nonsense with nothing to back it up.

Before you call me a Plasma snob too, I own 3 LCDs and 2 Plasmas.

And I think you have it backwards, you have to spend 1.5-3x for an LCD to get comparable performance of a good plasma.
LED black levels are just as good as plasma to the human eye. Like for Blu-ray vs. HDX, I really don't give two ****s about what some lab test shows.
BiggAW is offline  
post #179 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 08:29 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1011
You underestimate the viewing range of the human eye, but that doesn't surprise me coming from someone who doesn't deal in inconvenient truths (not of the Al Gore variety either).
vinnie97 is offline  
post #180 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 09:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mailiang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Springsteen Country
Posts: 6,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 349
Here you go fellas: http://www.cnet.com/news/why-led-doe...etter-picture/


Ian

The best way to succeed in life is to act on the advice you give to others

mailiang is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
frontpage

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off