HDTVtest Flat-Panel Faceoff Crowns Panasonic Plasma as Best TV - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 211 Old 06-26-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
LED black levels are just as good as plasma to the human eye.
Says who?

You're living in your own little world. If you don't see the difference between plasma and LCD in terms of black levels, then that's fine... no one is refuting that. But don't sit there and say that others don't.
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post #182 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
LED black levels are just as good as plasma to the human eye. Like for Blu-ray vs. HDX, I really don't give two ****s about what some lab test shows.

Then you really shouldn't be spouting a bunch of nonsense, and as far as human perception goes you would have to be blind to not see a visual difference between .017 and .0017, its the difference between grey and black. You should do some reading go see a top of the line plasma then come back and speak with some knowledge.
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post #183 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
LED black levels are just as good as plasma to the human eye. Like for Blu-ray vs. HDX, I really don't give two ****s about what some lab test shows.
I agree....

Now let's move on.
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post #184 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 07:53 AM
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Lightbulb LED/LCD Verses Plasma

Although LCD's have their benefits, for anyone who doesn't quite understand the advantages plasma technology has over LED/LCD, read Morrison's article. That's why I posted it.

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post #185 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Although LCD's have their benefits, for anyone who doesn't quite understand the advantages plasma technology has over LED/LCD, read Morrison's article. That's why I posted it.

Ian
No need to. Everyone has a right to their opinion. LEDs are the best as per Best Buy. Just ask their trained professionals.
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post #186 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
No need to. Everyone has a right to their opinion. LEDs are the best as per Best Buy. Just ask their trained professionals.


That's a good one!


Actually, I bought my S60 from the local Best Buy. The salesmen was very knowledgeable, but he was the department manager and owns a ZT60.


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post #187 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
Well of course it does - the 4K content looks WAY better than the 1080 content and it does look incredible to me even from 12 feet back, but its more because of the better source and content. But it's not a fair comparison and i think TVs should be compared only when displaying the same exact content.

That's like saying a Chevy Malibu on a paved road handles better than a BMW M3 on a dirt road. Of course it does - because it's on a much better road


Play regular 1080 content on that UHD LCD TV and it does look more natural than on a 1080p LCD, but from the few examples i've seen it didn't look better than it would on a good Plasma.
So you're saying that the TV comparisons should only be at the resolution of the lowest TV (1080p? - and 1080p vs 720p should only be compared with 720p content?) so that the UHDTV can't show the advantage it has in terms of pixel resolution? Surely that would be a bad comparison Since UHDTV is starting to become available and will be more available in future, how a TV displays it (if it can) should be one of the things taken into account. For TVs that can't they should show the UHDTV test downconverted, if possible or compare it with a 1080p encode. But it's best to include UHDTV video capability in the tests, as well as how they show content at other resolutions, since that is what consumers who want the best PQ are likely to want to see (or to see how it compares).
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post #188 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
So you're saying that the TV comparisons should only be at the resolution of the lowest TV (1080p? - and 1080p vs 720p should only be compared with 720p content?) so that the UHDTV can't show the advantage it has in terms of pixel resolution?
No, that's not what i'm saying. You're taking my comments out of context and putting words in my mouth.

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post #189 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
No, that's not what i'm saying. You're taking my comments out of context and putting words in my mouth.
I agree with you.
to compare TV's(which is based mostly on black levels, contrast, uniformity, color reproduction), you should be using the same source at the same resolution


to compare formats(which should only factor in black levels, contrast, color, etc if it's part of the new format) you should be using displays that represent the best performance with different resolutions.




when you compare a 1080p tv to totally different UHD tv, you are really looking at two different things at the same time. which is fine, you SHOULD do this before buying. but you can't make broad statements afterwards. if the 1080p tv happens to look better, you can't then say 1080p is better than UHD, just that that particular 1080p tv is better than that particular UHD tv.

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post #190 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 04:53 PM
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99 million p resolution on a display that sucks equals a display that sucks!
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post #191 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
LED black levels are just as good as plasma to the human eye. Like for Blu-ray vs. HDX, I really don't give two ****s about what some lab test shows.
interesting way to find out I'm not human :O


I would agree, the test numbers don't matter that much to me. that's why I ended up with the f8500 instead of a zt60. but there's a HUGE difference between a MLL of .0x and .00x. that should be OBVIOUS to the human eye in decent viewing conditions. if you're watching tv in a super bright room, sure they'll look the same, but if you want to watch in a dim/dark room, an lcd with .01 black levels is super bright compared to a plasma with .002.


just remember, YOU are not a representation of everybody. nor are you a scientific instrument, nor an unbiased and professional reviewer. what YOU have experienced is actually a skewed result that others should not rely on unless they are exactly like you. the scientific instruments, and professional reviews(that ALL say plasma is better) are more valuable to the average person. it's a lot more beneficial for a potential buyer to walk into the store knowing that plasma blacks are better, and then decide on their own if it's something they will notice/care about, than to have that person go into the store thinking the black levels are exactly the same and not even compare them.
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post #192 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post
No need to. Everyone has a right to their opinion. LEDs are the best as per Best Buy. Just ask their trained professionals.
nothing wrong with an opinion as long as it's presented as such.


for example, it's my opinion that anybody buying an LED for their main display must not care about picture quality or viewing in ideal conditions.


but that's not a fact, and it's almost certainly wrong. stating opinions as fact is what we're all upset about. I'm sure there's a dozen other posters that have said they preferred LED to plasma that haven't stirred up any arguments. I mean how can you? if it's preference or opinion there is no wrong answer. but to say something like led's match plasma in everyway as a 'fact' is just plain wrong, and EASILY proven wrong too.
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post #193 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
interesting way to find out I'm not human :O


I would agree, the test numbers don't matter that much to me. that's why I ended up with the f8500 instead of a zt60. but there's a HUGE difference between a MLL of .0x and .00x. that should be OBVIOUS to the human eye in decent viewing conditions. if you're watching tv in a super bright room, sure they'll look the same, but if you want to watch in a dim/dark room, an lcd with .01 black levels is super bright compared to a plasma with .002.


just remember, YOU are not a representation of everybody. nor are you a scientific instrument, nor an unbiased and professional reviewer. what YOU have experienced is actually a skewed result that others should not rely on unless they are exactly like you. the scientific instruments, and professional reviews(that ALL say plasma is better) are more valuable to the average person. it's a lot more beneficial for a potential buyer to walk into the store knowing that plasma blacks are better, and then decide on their own if it's something they will notice/care about, than to have that person go into the store thinking the black levels are exactly the same and not even compare them.
The data is the data. It doesn't mean that it translates to anything for the viewer. LED-LCD and plasma both provide the perfect blacks that CCFL-LCD never could.
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post #194 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 07:52 PM
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Who writes your material ? It is definitely comedy .
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post #195 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
The data is the data. It doesn't mean that it translates to anything for the viewer. LED-LCD and plasma both provide the perfect blacks that CCFL-LCD never could.
You really are narrow-minded. Everyone has accepted that opinions vary, while you continue to pull stuff out of your a** and present them as facts, when clearly they're your own opinion.

Can we please just agree to disagree and move on? Clearly this isn't going anywhere.
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^Not a chance.
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post #197 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 09:31 PM
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post #198 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 09:34 PM
 
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This is based on prior experience with this individual in another thread. Any countering of his "facts" was met with deflection every single time until the thread was closed. Looks like we're on a collision course with the same fate on this thread. I'd be okay with that.
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post #199 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 10:11 PM
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post #200 of 211 Old 06-27-2014, 11:41 PM
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What happen too ips? I had one that was good except it was juddery and black levels were awful.

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post #201 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 03:44 AM
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You guys can fuss and argue with each other, But average consumer they like Samsung Led Tv's, I have five friends work in retail three in Bestbuy one HHgregg and one in Sears, all of them said Samsung and alot folks don't like Plasma if you wonder why Plasma is dieing out from negative myths, Most of you guys like high end tv's average joe whatever on sale under thousand dollars.
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post #202 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
The data is the data. It doesn't mean that it translates to anything for the viewer. LED-LCD and plasma both provide the perfect blacks that CCFL-LCD never could.
I agree. NOW CAN WE MOVE ON????????????????????????????????????

Stop responding to his posts and protecting the noob which is why every claims to be entertaining this guy. Everyone here knows why plasma is on of the best techs, we all get it. 1 guy doesn't care. In the words of Frozen, Let it GO!!

You people are arguing with someone who didn't even know what model TV he owned and what tech it used! It is like when my wife full on argues with my 3 1/2 year old son. I am always like, what are you doing, he is 3! Ignore him! He is purposely disagreeing with everything you say. Can you not see that?

These posts are exactly like that with SmallAW.

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post #203 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 07:39 AM
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I agree -- it is better to ignore the troll than feed it. I only wish everyone felt the same way.
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post #204 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 07:46 AM
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I am not sure why he can't be banned at this point. He does the same thing in every topic around these forums. I am convinced he is actually not as misinformed as he seems, but for whatever reason (boredom with life?) he decides to post polar opposite viewpoints to get a rise out of people. This is the definition of trolling.

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Trolling
The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll.

Signs that your trolling is succesful:
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Signs that your trolling is unsuccesful:
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post #205 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 10:56 AM
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There is a small triangle on the corner click and report this troll









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post #206 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
This is based on prior experience with this individual in another thread. Any countering of his "facts" was met with deflection every single time until the thread was closed. Looks like we're on a collision course with the same fate on this thread. I'd be okay with that.
They might as well close this thread. IMO it's a moot point that Panasonic's Plasma was crowned 'Best TV' as they are no longer being made. At some point there will be another 'Best TV'. Time to get on with it and stop this wallowing in the land of 'was'...

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post #207 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 11:22 AM
 
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I resent that wallowing claim. This shootout occurred in the last month in the UK where the TV is/was still on sale.
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post #208 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 03:53 PM
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Haven't paid much attention to plasma in recent years, but couldn't get past the what seems to be inherent dark area noise. The Panasonic "professional" plasma I had in a grading room was abysmal, though I suspect that series had problems. Leave bars on it for just a minute it would already start to burn in. Green had significant lag.

LCDs are improving, but the density of the back lighting needs to improve, and possibly use individual RGB elements. OLED seems promising, but it still is susceptible to burns and the lifetime numbers are dubious. The degradation with time is gradual, so at point does it become unacceptable to a critical viewer? Guess we'll find out.

Best display I think I've seen to date was Sony's CLED a couple years back as an experimental demo at CES. Real LED (not LCD) display with true black. No noise or contouring (aka banding) effects that I could see. Great colorimetry. Zero lag. It was a little jumbotron. As it hasn't been seen since the technology must be currently impractical, but it did show how good it could look. Makes these other technologies seem like stopgap measures until it can be manufactured.
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post #209 of 211 Old 06-28-2014, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
The data is the data. It doesn't mean that it translates to anything for the viewer. LED-LCD and plasma both provide the perfect blacks that CCFL-LCD never could.
but it DOES translate to the viewer. there's many ppl that see that difference. we are just using the numbers to back up that claim. if we were arguing the benefit of '600hz' or some other phony spec, totally. but not even plasmas offer 'perfect blacks' so the difference between the already not perfect .002 and .02 is huge for us. where I find my f8500 slightly annoying in dark scenes, I find an lcd(led or ccfl) to be super frustrating to watch something like a batman movie on. remember those pics I posted that you questioned a reason for, well that's the difference between .002 and .02, HUGE!


so to recap.
-data is data. it shows a 'technical' superiority of black levels on plasma. they actually measure 'blacker'
-viewer experience is that many ppl notice plasmas have darker black levels and greatly prefer that in dim/dark viewing conditions or when watching darker content, even in brighter room(basically anything other than watching bright animated content)


you may disagree with that if you wish, but it doesn't make you right. it just makes you one of the few ppl who can't see the difference. no problem, just stop claiming to represent everybody, because you don't.

Last edited by fierce_gt; 06-29-2014 at 12:23 PM.
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post #210 of 211 Old 06-29-2014, 07:21 AM
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I agree "the data is the data". But it Represents exactly what is easily visible with the human eye pertaining to black levels. At least in my little world, lol!

In regular daytime viewing conditions I can easily see the difference in my G10(.027ftl) ST30(.008ftl) VT60(.001). So with that experiment I can't agree that it's not visible. Maybe they don't know what to look for but once they see and understand it they Can't unsee it, ever. CRT and OLED are different animals that can beat plasma and LCD can't compete with ANSI blacks of the other types of displays types I listed.
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