Why I Bought a Plasma HDTV in 2014 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Sure... but just FYI, I am super busy at the moment, and the next few days are crunch-time for me. But here goes, 'for the record.'

your story...

good grief man. no wonder you're so P.O.'d right now. I guess as part of the transition away from plasma, they no longer train their technicians about plasma displays either.


on a side note, I didn't realize BiggAW was a Samsung tech...
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post #542 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 08:43 PM
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fierce_gt[/B];25207313]so are you waiting for Samsung to kiss your arse at this dinner before you tell us what happened or what?


I think the appropriate thing to do would be to describe the visit before you speak with Samsung. it's not going to change what happened, I'd rather hear the truth of the situation, rather than have your story influenced by bias after they give you special treatment(maybe??) when you bring it up at the dinner.


if your experiment is about how the average consumer would receiver service, now is the time to sum up those results, imo.


just saying. not sure if this is the case or not, but it feels like you're waiting for 'their side of the story before you publish', but I'm not sure you need to hear their side since you were the one who experienced it.
OTOH Going through the normal retail channels for service might be appropriate for Mark if he is wanting to document an average customer warranty experience without extraordinary intervention it could be interesting .
lets maybe wait and see what shakes out .

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fierce_gt ,
on a side note, I didn't realize BiggAW was a Samsung tech...
reply :tube twister ,
Almost fell outta my chair LMAO !

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post #543 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
OTOH Going through the normal retail channels for service might be appropriate for Mark if he is wanting to document an average customer warranty experience without extraordinary intervention it could be interesting .
lets maybe wait and see what shakes out .
Ultimately I need a working, fully functional TV. My suspicion is I'll have to drive to another Best Buy and hope the replacement TV didn't come from the same batch my local store got. On the other hand, I really wanted to know if it was a serviceable issue, and what the fix was. If I have to reach out to Samsung and demand a competent technician to get that answer, that's what I'll do. More than anything, I want to let Samsung know that I had a terrible experience with its service, and that I'm concerned this could happen to other people.

Right now, I'm seeing how things go with Samsung's Twitter-based tech support. Here's the reply I got to my tweet: "We are very sorry to hear you have had issues with our device. Is there anything we can do for you? Thank you. ^Andy"
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post #544 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 09:14 PM
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losservatoreThis is this a technician directly from Samsung or a local TV repair guy?, I know that here LG have their own technicians with their LG vans and wearing the LG uniform.


Reply Tubetwister
Could be an LG franchise service operation or company owned .

Thats how Dish TV installer franchise works at least in my area the trucks are Newer
and have Direct TV paint and signage and the drivers have Dish TV uniforms they use the regular Dish 800 phone # dispatchers also . If you didn't know( I asked ) you would think They were directly employed by Dish TV .

Many times a franchise can appear to be company owned by design
just like MacDonalds or Burger King .

I worked with some of our Franchise dealers and dealer groups
during my career for the most part to the customer they looked the same as our COO business units ofc that was intended .

I don't know in LG's case ,often there may be a mix of company owned business units and franchises also .
with the majority usually being franchises in a lot of areas .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #545 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 09:14 PM
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Samsung is not the only one, Panasonic call your local TV repair guy to fix your TV ,basically a person experimenting with your TV.The service repair from LG was ok.but honestly any service repair is a pain.




tubetwister that make sense.....

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post #546 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 09:16 PM
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At least we know this "service technician" wasn't an AVS member.
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post #547 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 09:25 PM
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Ultimately I need a working, fully functional TV. My suspicion is I'll have to drive to another Best Buy and hope the replacement TV didn't come from the same batch my local store got. On the other hand, I really wanted to know if it was a serviceable issue, and what the fix was. If I have to reach out to Samsung and demand a competent technician to get that answer, that's what I'll do. More than anything, I want to let Samsung know that I had a terrible experience with its service, and that I'm concerned this could happen to other people.

Right now, I'm seeing how things go with Samsung's Twitter-based tech support. Here's the reply I got to my tweet: "We are very sorry to hear you have had issues with our device. Is there anything we can do for you? Thank you. ^Andy"
They need to step up their twitter game and at least offer to have someone e mail or call you or at least give you a customer service resolution # to call . A lot of companies are surprisingly still not good at modern consumer affairs .

Some folks refer to those as 1800 crybaby phone #'s but a good empowered consumer affairs dept can be a very valuable asset to both the consumer and the company unfortunately a lot of companies outsource that and don't empower or adequately train the customer service folks .

OTOH maybe your tweet may pan out though that's not a place they would want unresolved legitimate complaints floating around I would think anyway . Maybe a couple of tweets back and forth wouldn't hurt it depends on how much Samsung values it's twittersphere and how much they empower their tweeters . I never thought Samsung was stupid so it could be interesting as a business case .Smart companies will look after their digital media platforms and channels these days .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #548 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 10:30 PM
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That's exactly what happened. And, I even showed him this thread... But the kicker is how he left my TV in Vivid mode with overscan turned on, which makes the picture look like crap.
I think on the f series if you enter service menu , it resets your picture settings depending on which sub menu you go to , that's how it works on my PSf5500 , could be different on PN models.
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post #549 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 10:59 PM
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Sorry to here about your troubles with the tech, Mark. Maybe I'm a little jaded when it comes to CS, but it doesn't surprise me in the least that he was no help on something like this.

I honestly can't remember if there was any discoloration on the open-box 51F5300 that I examined. If so, it was probably so minor compared to the uniformity issues on my CRT that I probably wouldn't have given it much thought. Next time I'm at BB though, I'll try to run the screen wiper on a couple of the F5300 floor units to see if they have this issue. If the problem is as common as you suggest though, then my guess is you'll either have to live with it, or find a fix yourself.

I have a couple of questions about your setup, if you don't mind answering...

Are you using ferrite cores on the cables?
Is the TV plugged into a power strip, or directly into a wall socket?
Are you running A/C in the room, and is the air excessively dry?
Are there any speakers in close proximity to the TV?
Have there been any lightning storms in your area recently?
Have you tried unplugging the TV overnight to see if that made any difference?

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post #550 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 11:33 PM
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I'm still readin through some of the pages. But I'm aware that this is Mark's 2nd unit, and that they've both had similar issues, ie some change in color near the bottom of the screen.

My reading of the tech's response is that the discoloration is normal on these TVs. But I'd still like to know a little more about his setup to see if there might be some other potential issues goin on that could be exacerbating the problem on his TVs.

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post #551 of 979 Old 06-23-2014, 11:49 PM
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His next step is to get another TV from other best buy hoping that is not from the same build date.




It was just a lazy technician that wanted to get paid for the visit and go home.








Keep following the thread ,mark will be here tomorrow.
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post #552 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:04 AM
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Update: After more than one hundred hours of use, my replacement F5300 shows slight signs of a magenta cast near the bottom of the screen. It's quite similar to what I saw on the first model, but much milder. Even so, it's a visible defect that I did not see on the store's display model. Therefor, I've contacted Samsung for service. A technician is coming on Friday, June 20—it's time to find out if Samsung's service is as good as I've read/heard it is.

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That sucks. I was lucky to get my F5300 in good shape, no hues or nada. I'm about 400 hours in and my oh my, every time I turn on the TV now, I can see the picture getting better and better as the days go on. Case in point, an Atlanta Braves home game. It was the first thing that was on when I turned on the TV with my Fios box. Recently, I flipped over to a Braves game just to see as a reference from my first day with the set and was surprised to see a much clear and sharper picture. The colors of their white/blue/red uniforms looked rich and full of accurate color. Dark room performance seems to get better and better. Watched World War Z on blu-ray with the lights out, and everything popped nicely. Deep black bars. Also, animated stuff like Up and Monsters Inc. just shine with this set. So happy with this TV for under $800. I'm glad you wrote about this so more and videophiles on a budget can stop fretting about a higher-end set and get something this cheap and this good while they can. The set can only get better, picture-wise, so hope your new serviced set lasts you a long time until those OLEDs hit everyone.

Can't recommend the F5300 highly enough.
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post #553 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:37 AM
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Keep following the thread
For sure.

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Can't recommend the F5300 highly enough.
Good to know.

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post #554 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:42 AM
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I instantly recognized the lower rez on the 60" pentile screen plasma as compared to 1080p on 60" LCDs and the 60" LG plasma nearby.
+1

I also get the points that Mark and others are making about chroma subsampling, viewing distance, etc. I like the greater "transparency" of the pixels on the 51F5300 vs. the PenTile panels though.

In case anyone's still confused about the difference, here's a close up comparison of a standard 1920x1080p pixel array versus a PenTile array. The PenTile is on the right.



Based on what I've seen and read, PenTile panels have the same number of green subpixels as a standard 1920x1080 pixel array, but only half as many red and blue subpixels (ie 960x1080), arranged as shown above.

The PenTile panels can probably still pass a standard black & white 1920x1080p resolution test because the green subpixels have the greatest luminance, and hence the greatest impact on those tests. I'm pretty sure they would fail some of the red and blue 1920x1080p color resolution tests though. Just how significant an issue that is probably depends on the viewer, content, etc...

If the PenTile panels have coarser dithering due to the fewer red and blue subpixels, then that would be one reason to avoid them, if you can. There aren't many good plasma options left in certain size/price ranges though. So a PenTile may be the best (or only) way to go for some folks.

Some people might find this article on the 64H5000 (which also uses a PenTile array) of interest, esp. the sections on Subpixel Layout, and Motion Resolution where it discusses some of the dithering issues...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h5000-201403143657.htm

I believe all these panels also use subpixel addressing so what comes out of the source isn't necessarily exactly what you'll see on the screen. IOW, there's probably some interpolation going on in all three RGB color components, which will impact the detail that's visible on the screen.

The subpixel addressing can be disabled on the Panasonic panels via the 1080p Pixel Direct feature (though I noticed some green push on YCbCr HDMI sources with that feature on the S60). There didn't seem to be a way to disable it on the 51F5300 though. And it's probably not something you'd want to disable on a PenTile display, even if you could.
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Last edited by ADU; 06-24-2014 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Changed "subpixel rendering" to "subpixel addressing"
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post #555 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 04:11 AM
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Hi all. Been following for a few days. Ordered the PN60F5300 from Sears this morning as they had it at $679. Seems like they drop it to that level every once in a while.
I just ordered one. To anyone looking to buy one I would follow the directions on Slickdeals to get an even better deal.
http://slickdeals.net/f/7018628-60-s...e-shipping?v=1

$679.99
+$45.89 tax
+free shipping
=$725.88

Credits
-$40.80 BeFrugal cashback
-$84.00 Shop Your Way credit
-$14.51 AMEX credit card cashback (plus an extra year of warranty for free)
=$139.31

Grand Total $586.57

You simply aren't going to find a better deal than that. I'll live with the pentile screen for that price. All I know is it will have way better blacks than my post rise 50S1 and several hundred cheaper than I paid for the Panasonic back then. I've been paying attention to the 64F5300 that's been going in and out of stock at Wal-mart for $1000, but didn't feel it was worth almost double the price for 4 more inches. This will hold me over until OLED is reasonably priced several years from now.

The 60" LG plasma is also in this price range, but I think I choose the better set. I can finally look forward to watching movies in the dark again.

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post #556 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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At least we know this "service technician" wasn't an AVS member.
Yes that is fact I confirmed. The first question I ask anyone who doesn anything TV related is if they have heard of AVS Forum. That tech had not.

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post #557 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 05:39 AM
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Hey Mark, so you basically found out what most of us already know. These guys suck. They are usually uneducated and know less about TV's then most owners here. It is scary to let someone touch your brand new TV that knows less then you.

It is like TV sales guys in retail stores. They know nothing about the products they try and sell you. Why would a repair guy be any different.

And it is not just in the AV field, it goes much further then that. I always make sure to do my research on my purchases no matter what it is as I know the person who is there to help me will most likely lie to me and know nothing about the products.
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post #558 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Mark, so you basically found out what most of us already know. These guys suck. They are usually uneducated and know less about TV's then most owners here. It is scary to let someone touch your brand new TV that knows less then you.

It is like TV sales guys in retail stores. They know nothing about the products they try and sell you. Why would a repair guy be any different.

And it is not just in the AV field, it goes much further then that. I always make sure to do my research on my purchases no matter what it is as I know the person who is there to help me will most likely lie to me and know nothing about the products.
Indeed, in retrospect the last thing I would want if for that guy to attempt the repair. It's become a truism... if a TV sales or service person has never even heard of AVS Forum, then I don't want to deal with them! The ones who do know about AVS usually know a lot about TVs, and specifically about plasmas.

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post #559 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 06:14 AM
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Right now, I'm seeing how things go with Samsung's Twitter-based tech support. Here's the reply I got to my tweet: "We are very sorry to hear you have had issues with our device. Is there anything we can do for you? Thank you. ^Andy"
I'd be surprised if anything useful comes from that. It is twitter after all.
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post #560 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd be surprised if anything useful comes from that. It is twitter after all.
It feels like a waste of time. But since I am on the road and working I will see if tweeting leads anywhere over the next three days.
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post #561 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 10:31 AM
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Hey Mark, so you basically found out what most of us already know. These guys suck. They are usually uneducated and know less about TV's then most owners here. It is scary to let someone touch your brand new TV that knows less then you.

It is like TV sales guys in retail stores. They know nothing about the products they try and sell you. Why would a repair guy be any different.

And it is not just in the AV field, it goes much further then that. I always make sure to do my research on my purchases no matter what it is as I know the person who is there to help me will most likely lie to me and know nothing about the products.
I don't like to sound jaded, but this has generally been my experience as well, particularly with lower-end/cost products. You get what you pay for, as the saying goes. And there isn't much financial incentive for a retailor or manufacturer to roll-out the red carpet on such low cost products. It's easier for them just to swap or sell you another TV instead.

The tech's obviously aren't trained to identify or fix calibration issues, as we use that term. All they can probably do is check whether the TV is performing within certain normal tolerances (which probably requires an SM reset). And if it passes those basic tests, then it's "good to go". I'll be curious to see what, if any, results Mark is able to achieve on his uniformity issues through the mfr. though.

I made a couple minor changes to my last post on the PenTile subpixel arrangement btw. I changed "subpixel rendering" to "subpixel addressing", which probably characterizes what these TVs do a little better.

Also, the Pentile displays might "pass" some red and blue 1920x1080p HD color resolution tests (as well the green/B&W tests) due to the staggered arrangement of the red and blue subpixels. Some of those red and blue HD color tests might appear a bit "fuzzier" though, due to the lesser numbers of those subpixels.



Whether you'd notice the difference in your actual viewing depends on a variety of factors, including your visual acuity, viewing distance, the type of content being displayed, etc. (as has already been mentioned).

I've owned a "1080 vertical resolution" display (or something close to it) since 2002 though, so I'm really lookin for an upgrade to at least a "true" 1920x1080p pixel display at this point. That's really the bottom line for me on the PenTile vs. 1920x1080 pixel debate.

If you've been using 720p displays for awhile though, then the PenTiles may also be an upgrade from that in terms of size and PQ generally.
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post #562 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 11:01 AM
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It feels like a waste of time. But since I am on the road and working I will see if tweeting leads anywhere over the next three days.
If you have another tech look at the TV, my suggestion would be to try a less confrontational approach. You might (or might not) possibly get some more love on your issue that way. An issue like the one you've described may not be correctable through a simple tweak though.

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post #563 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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If you have another tech look at the TV, my suggestion would be to try a less confrontational approach. You might (or might not) possibly get some more love on your issue that way. An issue like the one you've described may not be correctable through a simple tweak though.
Confrontational? I kicked him out when it was clear he was only doing making things worse. I started out very friendly and accomodating. Who knows what would have fixed it... The tech refused to try.

If a tech blatantly lies to me - to my face, and repeatedly - and literally can't tell they changed settings to over scan and vivid mode... from calibrated movie mode... that means the tech knows nothing.

If a tech demonstrates competence, they will get my respect.
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post #564 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Twitter was a real waste of time... The reply:
@avsforum I'm sorry for your frustration. Our technician has determined that the TV was working properly. (cont)
@avsforum Let us know if you have any other concerns. Thanks. ^David
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post #565 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 11:41 AM
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Confrontational? I kicked him out when it was clear he was only doing making things worse. I started out very friendly and accomodating. Who knows what would have fixed it... The tech refused to try.

If a tech blatantly lies to me - to my face, and repeatedly - and literally can't tell they changed settings to over scan and vivid mode... from calibrated movie mode... that means the tech knows nothing.

If a tech demonstrates competence, they will get my respect.
It has been my experience that Panasonics go into vivid when you use the service menu, so I wonder how he didn't know; and I hope I didn't eat up ROM using the service menu on my new Samsung. I am wondering if it is a screen defect, I get a green-yellow tinge at top and a very slight pink one at bottom; both for a few scanlines. But I played with the customer calibration options, not the service calibration options; and they got erased.


Now I wonder if it is a scan defect. The tinge is so minor.
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post #566 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:10 PM
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Twitter was a real waste of time... The reply:
@avsforum I'm sorry for your frustration. Our technician has determined that the TV was working properly. (cont)
@avsforum Let us know if you have any other concerns. Thanks. ^David
Time to make some tweets about defective Samsung products being normal...
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post #567 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Time to make some tweets about defective Samsung products being normal...
I have no proof of that, and I have bought a lot of great Samsung products... my phones and tablets and numerous PC monitors. In fact this is my first experience with a defective Samsung product. Note that other members in this very thread bought F5300s that did not have this issue.
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post #568 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:22 PM
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If it is one straight line, one pixel wide; the screen is definitely defective. I think defective pixels are up and down, not left to right.
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post #569 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Twitter was a real waste of time... The reply:
@avsforum I'm sorry for your frustration. Our technician has determined that the TV was working properly. (cont)
@avsforum Let us know if you have any other concerns. Thanks. ^David
doesn't surprise me, they seem to be at the same level of service as the basic 1st level techs over the phone. you could simply reply, the tech did an unsatisfactory job in determining if it was a fault or not, but fitting everything into 140 char is limiting
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post #570 of 979 Old 06-24-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I have no proof of that, and I have bought a lot of great Samsung products... my phones and tablets and numerous PC monitors. In fact this is my first experience with a defective Samsung product. Note that other members in this very thread bought F5300s that did not have this issue.
Well they said it was normal, you feel it's defective... Seems pretty clear cut to me.
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