What causes ringing artifacts and how do I get rid of them? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 06-20-2014, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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What causes ringing artifacts and how do I get rid of them?

Many times, while watching DVDs or sometimes free-to-air TV, I've noticed strange outlines around objects. These outlines don't seem to be present in every scene, but they do annoy me when I notice them. I've reduced the Sharpness to 0 and turned off all the picture processing I could find, but it hasn't removed the outlines. I later learned that they were called "ringing artifacts".

Does anyone know what causes ringing artifacts. I've only noticed them in standard definition footage. Are they a side effect of the upscaling process? Could better upscaling software reduce or eliminate ringing artifacts? I have a 60-inch Samsung F8500 TV and a Sony BDP-S3100 blu-ray player. My player's Output Video Resolution setting is set to 'Auto', so when I watch a DVD, the player is doing the upscaling. Should I set it to 'Original Resolution', so the TV can do the upscaling? Which system is better at upscaling?

Does anyone have any other ideas for how to get rid of ringing artifacts?

EDIT: I don't know if this was the right place to post this thread. AVS doesn't have a sub-forum for picture quality discussions.

Last edited by NetSpiker; 06-21-2014 at 01:36 AM.
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post #2 of 21 Old 06-21-2014, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by NetSpiker View Post
Many times, while watching DVDs or sometimes free-to-air TV, I've noticed strange outlines around objects. These outlines don't seem to be present in every scene, but they do annoy me when I notice them. I've reduced the Sharpness to 0 and turned off all the picture processing I could find, but it hasn't removed the outlines. I later learned that they were called "ringing artifacts".

Does anyone know what causes ringing artifacts. I've only noticed them in standard definition footage. Are they a side effect of the upscaling process? Could better upscaling software reduce or eliminate ringing artifacts? I have a 60-inch Samsung F8500 TV and a Sony BDP-S3100 blu-ray player. My player's Output Video Resolution setting is set to 'Auto', so when I watch a DVD, the player is doing the upscaling. Should I set it to 'Original Resolution', so the TV can do the upscaling? Which system is better at upscaling?

Does anyone have any other ideas for how to get rid of ringing artifacts?

EDIT: I don't know if this was the right place to post this thread. AVS doesn't have a sub-forum for picture quality discussions.
Try to let the TV do the upscaling and see if that helps. I think the ringing or "mosquito noise" is a byproduct of MPEG-2 (DVD) video compression. It varies depending on the bitrate and passes used during the video compression. Most new full feature movie DVDs dont have much of it, but older content, TV shows, and cartoon collections may have quite a bit. Its not normally visible on an SD set because the resolution/sharpness is usually low enough to mask it. Turning down the sharpness is the usual answer, but if thats not working Im not sure what else to try other than letting the set do the upscaling.

Make sure you are using the highest quality video outputs from your player (component or HDMI) and dig through the menus on your player, perhaps there is a filter you havent found yet.
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post #3 of 21 Old 06-21-2014, 03:11 PM
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Thought I read there is edge enhancement that the tvs add that can't be turned off.Did you try pc or game mode?Having it more a problem in sd sounds normal.A lot of it has too do with the quality of broadcast,program etc.That is not an issue on my budget e450 tv but I view it from a ways back. There are a lot of different things that it could be when it's image quality.You can bandaid the problems a little bit with adjustments sometimes.I have SOME sd sports that has awful
maze,deinterlacing,artifacts,mosquito noise.Some of it is coming from the cable tv signal.The abl causes high abl screens too go blurry resulting in part of the screen too appear sharper.Room lighting blurs the picture too.A long list of things.
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post #4 of 21 Old 06-23-2014, 02:07 AM
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@ Josh128 Sharpness adj to high on the BD/DVD HDMI input ?

Quote:
Vic12345 wrote ,

I have SOME sd sports that has awful
maze,deinterlacing,artifacts,mosquito noise.Some of it is coming from the cable tv signal.

Re /Tubetwister
Thats all included on Fox sports channels and Fox sports broadcasts at no extra charge even on HD ☺

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post #5 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
@ Josh128 Sharpness adj to high on the BD/DVD HDMI input ?




Re /Tubetwister
Thats all included on Fox sports channels and Fox sports broadcasts at no extra charge even on HD ☺
HD is fine on mine.It's by no means perfect though.There sure seems like there's a lot of compression on the cable tv.
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post #6 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 12:12 AM
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HD is fine on mine.It's by no means perfect though.There sure seems like there's a lot of compression on the cable tv.
HD works fine here compression artifacts mosquito noise bit shaping and all mostly noticeable on dark or grey areas /back grounds HD picture quality varies by channel depending on the original content quality to the service provider amount of mpeg compression , bit shaping and individual channel bandwidth all allocated by the service provider .
not to mention the broadcast retransmissions are often HD lite not true 1080i/1080p or 720p . sometimes Netflix1080p HD looks betterthan *some channels but not always they have the same issues along with a reduced bit rate . Blu Ray bit rate is way too high for economical SAT/Cable transmission or or IP
streaming we might get some help with HEVC .265 down the road but that requires hardware that can decode it usually only found in the some of the newest 4K (UHD ) sets .edit: . I don't think ? current STB's will pass through HEVC to the TV either some one here knows though .

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post #7 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 01:41 AM
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I can't believe how much difference there is in the quality between different programs.You watch ball games and it looks great ,and then watch the sports highlights and the quality can be horrendous.All The different gammas on various programs ,along with the abl/voltage issues,no screen filter and it becomes a mess.

Edit I've seen what the OP may be seeing and the nearest object has a defined outline around the object and the objects further back look blurry.Maybe every tv is affected differently.It is the source video quality and doubt anything can fix it.I believe I seen this on an LCD but not 100%.

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post #8 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 03:09 PM
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Youve definitely seen it on LCD. Its not a product of the set, but of the source material.

Cable and especially DirecTV/Dish satellite HD broadcasts are compressed to the hilt to meet bandwidth limitations.

Try checking out some over the air HD programming on a local broadcast station (such as CBS or NBC) via some rabbit ears or a decent outdoor antenna. The picture quality is usually MUCH better than the super compressed DirecTV pseudo -HD.
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post #9 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 03:27 PM
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Sometimes the outline effects are due to detail sharpening at the source. On this forum the terms "Edge Enhancement" (aka EE) and "Ringing" are used, though I think both are inaccurate. Usually the process uses filters to extract the higher frequencies and then add them back to the video to increase their amplitude. If there is too much added back, the result will be outlines which are most pronounced on edges. If used properly, meaning appropriate shape of the high frequency filter and the amount added back, detail sharping can be effective in compensating for reduced detail amplitude which can happen for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, detail sharpening is too often set by subjective means and some will simply add too much. This was not uncommon in the SD days, and has also been an issue in HD too.

Frequency response errors can also occur with scaling and some scaling techniques are more prone than others in an effort to keep as much detail as possible.

The Sharpness control on displays usually can't undo excessive sharpness on the source. If they can subtract sharpness, it probably won't exactly match the detail boost on the source. It may reduce outlines but also lose some fine detail.
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post #10 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
Sometimes the outline effects are due to detail sharpening at the source. On this forum the terms "Edge Enhancement" (aka EE) and "Ringing" are used, though I think both are inaccurate. Usually the process uses filters to extract the higher frequencies and then add them back to the video to increase their amplitude. If there is too much added back, the result will be outlines which are most pronounced on edges. If used properly, meaning appropriate shape of the high frequency filter and the amount added back, detail sharping can be effective in compensating for reduced detail amplitude which can happen for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, detail sharpening is too often set by subjective means and some will simply add too much. This was not uncommon in the SD days, and has also been an issue in HD too.

Frequency response errors can also occur with scaling and some scaling techniques are more prone than others in an effort to keep as much detail as possible.

The Sharpness control on displays usually can't undo excessive sharpness on the source. If they can subtract sharpness, it probably won't exactly match the detail boost on the source. It may reduce outlines but also lose some fine detail.
Interesting I learned something . I' ve read and it seems a lot of talking head shows use face detection software (or something ) and often soften up the video at least on the faces maybe more of the video ?

It seems to vary by program maybe that's up to the show producer? I've seen that effect vary even on the same network . Its readily apparent to me sometimes on a split screen with 2 talking heads where the show host image appears to be softened quite a bit but the remote contributor /guest image will often have much more picture detail warts and all ofc it can work both ways sometimes the second (remote ) person image seems to be bit starved .

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post #11 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 05:07 PM
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Interesting I learned something . I' ve read and it seems a lot of talking head shows use face detection software (or something ) and often soften up the video at least on the faces maybe more of the video ?
Yes, it's sometimes called "Skin Detail". It's supposed to be more flattering to facial details, but I think it just makes people look like mannequins. Another technique which has been around forever is coring, sometimes called Crispening, to suppress detail signal noise by reducing or eliminating small amplitude detail signals. Typically a dead zone around zero is used, and as it also reduces the rest of the detail enhancement signal it's not unusual to see more added to compensate which make for even more outlines.
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post #12 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 05:19 PM
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Lightbulb Ultimate Guide To 'Edge Enhancement' on DVD

See this link for more info on ringing: http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm


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post #13 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
Yes, it's sometimes called "Skin Detail". It's supposed to be more flattering to facial details, but I think it just makes people look like mannequins. Another technique which has been around forever is coring, sometimes called Crispening, to suppress detail signal noise by reducing or eliminating small amplitude detail signals. Typically a dead zone around zero is used, and as it also reduces the rest of the detail enhancement signal it's not unusual to see more added to compensate which make for even more outlines.
I thought they were screwing with the talking heads especially on Fox sometimes they look like they should be in a wax museum they really murder O'reilly on The Factor with the studio lighting (or whatever they do ? ) it makes him look like an orange halloween pumpkin sometimes and like you say others have to much unnatural detail enhancement ! CNN seems a little better in that respect and being 1080p they are better at a closer view distance although sometimes Fox is fine for 720p depends on the show.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #14 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
See this link for more info on ringing: http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm


Ian
I've come across that before. While I admire the call to minimize outline effects, that fact that the term "Edge Enhancement" is repeatedly used leads me to believe the author has little understanding of how things work. Perhaps the author needs to learn a bit about filters, particularly FIRs.
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On my Sam e450 the white balance (mostly green)have a large effect on skin/faces.I calibrate by eye and I use skin tones on a "medium level abl screens"to get the gamma/temperature right.compare face too rest of image.
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post #16 of 21 Old 06-24-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
I've come across that before. While I admire the call to minimize outline effects, that fact that the term "Edge Enhancement" is repeatedly used leads me to believe the author has little understanding of how things work. Perhaps the author needs to learn a bit about filters, particularly FIRs.
The article was written in 2001, but it does offer some good observations. Since you feel the author falls short, maybe you should write one of your own.


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post #17 of 21 Old 06-26-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The article was written in 2001, but it does offer some good observations. Since you feel the author falls short, maybe you should write one of your own.


Ian
I suppose I could, and it could be used as a sleep aid

In re-reading this, it does contain a lot of good information. It points out the effect of frequency vs. outline thickness, and that it occurs both horizontally and vertically. I disagree with the premise that all detail enhancement, including aperture correction, is bad. Used properly it can effectively compensate for some detail losses. Fixed pattern imagers, such as CCDs, have inherent high frequency roll off with near full fill factors. Also it states that transfers are heavily filtered to reduce flicker. There were techniques to increase the scan line thickness by carefully misadjusting the astigmatism (ScanDal) which used with higher amounts could soften the vertical detail. I found that was more useful for transfers in 525, while the extra scan lines in 625 didn't really need it as much. In the SD days transfers commonly needed to be delivered in both 525 and 625, and transferring in 625 and converting to 525 (using slow PAL) to me looked better than a native 525 transfer.

Using film test patterns allowed objective settings for aperture and enhancement settings. Flyspot scanners usually needed little if any vertical enhancement, other than perhaps matching excessive horizontal enhancement. In more current times, film scanning at higher resolutions have replaced real time transfers, and much of the enhancement issues are disappearing. As far as enhancement outlines being baked in permanently on existing video, filtering out excessive mid frequencies can effectively minimize them. The limitation is on areas with clipping, whether that be the enhancement peaks or the video itself.

Live camera video seems to still have the enhancement set subjectively, and settings seem to vary widely. Letterman's show (CBS) to me has heavy enhancement, and from what I gather is using older cameras. Sports also often seems to have heavy enhancement. Hopefully as UHD gains usage that some of this will disappear. I was hoping that was going to be the case with HD, and to an extent it was. The Today show in SD was extremely enhanced, but the HD era is far better. In the past detail enhancement was also called contours, and a pejorative term I remember for those who added excessive enhancement was 'Contour Kings'.

The term 'ringing' is commonly used, but to me it's not an accurate description. Ringing, at least in the past, referred to damped oscillation such as how a bell vibrates when struck and fades. With enhancement, there can be overshoots from excessive emphasis of some frequencies which create the outlines but they are not typically oscillating between positive and negative after a transition.

Better stop here before even I fall asleep reading this.

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post #18 of 21 Old 06-30-2014, 07:41 PM
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post #19 of 21 Old 07-01-2014, 09:08 AM
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Best to have sharpness settings at a correct level - which is the minimum on most displays.

All added processing turned off also. Especially DNR settings.

That way what's left behind is supposed to be there. If it's clean it's clean - if not it's just the crappy material being displayed
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post #20 of 21 Old 07-08-2014, 11:59 PM
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On the e450 here ive tested some screens where the abl turns it an awful blurry mess and turning the sharpness up too 40-50 takes away some of the blurry mess.
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post #21 of 21 Old 07-09-2014, 10:37 AM
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you are right,streaming we might get some help with HEVC .265 down the road but that requires [IMG]http://*******/Prn9DS[/IMG]hardware that can decode it usually only found in the some of the newest 4K (UHD ) sets .
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