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post #31 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzdocxx View Post
Mr. FierceGT can you remind me, which size is your 8500 ?

Thanks, I don't completely understand the photos but I can see there is a big space with black going horizontally, I think that's what we are talking about here .
I have a 64"


the pics are just a close up shot of what 'white' looks like at the subpixel level. I guess some displays don't have as much space between the pixels vertically. the only reason why I think it's really relevant is that Samsung kind of made a big deal about having a new 'larger' pixel that would reduce this gap between pixels. supposedly increasing brightness and reducing SDE. it definitely seems like they've achieved those goals, but it doesn't look like the pixels are actually any larger...?


these are not my pics, but taken from a review site that compares pixel structure


f8500:

f5300(I'm assuming 60" since it's not pentile:



to me, the size and gap looks to be about the same. no huge change on the f8500, although I don't know what's up with the little lines within the subpixels on the f8500?


and then for comparison...
ST60:



and a LCD, F5500:



now, what does it all mean? your guess is as good as mine, haha.
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post #32 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
for what it's worth, one of the reasons I eventually chose the f8500 over the vt/zt60 last year was a similar experience. now I've never actually looked that closely at pixel structure before, but when I compared the f8500 to the panny's, the f8500 just had a 'clearer' look to it. to me, it LOOKED as if it had less space between pixels, although now it sounds like that's the opposite of the truth


so I would agree, we need to factor in real world viewing too. I mean the RGB pattern that is so clearly shown in my picture looks like a solid white on the screen. if I can't see the individual subpixels, I'm not going to see that gap either.
Simple explanation, the Panasonic was in store mode otherwise I don't know


256 level gradient


macro shot of my panel

if you get the itch to try that I would love to see but my camera is not really up to par with yours
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post #33 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 01:03 AM
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on the secnd picture that is not burn in its camera reflection oops



Quote:
Originally Posted by gradients


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post #34 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
f8500:



...I don't know what's up with the little lines within the subpixels on the f8500?
Could that be the louvered filter?
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post #35 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Bull$hit! I have the 60F5300 and there is no screen door effect from 8' away, let alone 10'. I have better than average eye site..
I'm sorry you don't like what I've seen, but it was on display not in your home... if that makes a difference.



Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Oh come on, every plasma gets IR if left on the same screen for long enough. Stop being a cheerleader for Panasonic. I love their sets and had one for 5 years, but it's really annoying to read your posts in every thread gushing over them as if they have no faults.
And for how long is that? I watch a sport event almost every night with sports tickers and I don't experience any noticeable IR. Same goes for letter box content. That being said, I'm not doing a marathon, and yes I do prefer Panasonic to Samsung. I also own a Toshiba LCD, so what?

I will concede that you have a right to disagree with my assessment, but oh come on, if you're so annoyed about what I write, instead of making belligerent remarks about my posts, grow up and either ignore them, or make a substantive argument with facts that we can debate.


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post #36 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 03:20 PM
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LED anyone? Love my Plasma's though.
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post #37 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Unlike my Panasonic C2, my S60 has never shown a hint of IR. Although I don't game, I do watch a lot of sports and plenty of letterbox content.

Ian
The S60 has a different phosphor composition than 3D models so I guess you are right
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post #38 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Went over to Best Buy today.

They didn't have the 8500 series on display, but then I don't really want to spend $2000+ on a set for my mom's house -- she's 89 and has my old 42" CRT currently, so I am thinking the 5300 series, the 51" ought to do it. That will sidestep the whole pentile issue.

It crossed my mind that maybe I should start over from scratch and just look at LED/LCDs. Mainly, they are cooler and seem lighter and more readily available.

But the manufacturers play so many word games. "Full array" to me implies backlit. But the BB guys said no, they are edge lit. Then there is "effective refresh rate", "Clear Motion Rate", and so forth.

Confusing !


(PS Thanks for all the comments.)
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post #39 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 06:43 PM
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Just search plasma 2016. Bye Bye. IR? Time for OLED! They have IR worse than plasma. Plus the phosphors age at different rates so they start looking like crap just like CRTs when they age.

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post #40 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 06:46 PM
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Just search plasma 2016. Bye Bye.
Troll
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post #41 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 06:58 PM
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Learn to read Weboh.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/03/tech...tvs/index.html

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post #42 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 08:07 PM
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OLED won't even replace LCD-LED, t-roll. Do you think LCD ages gracefully.
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post #43 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
Could that be the louvered filter?
ooh, maybe. I hadn't even thought about that


EDIT: I think you may be onto something. I took a few more pics, and tried to get a better focus to see if those lines showed up on mine. no luck, EXCEPT, when I accidentally used a flash, and then those lines seemed to show on the subpixels where the flash hit. I was actually just displaying a red color, but you can see it on all three subpixels, so I'm thinking you may be right, that might be the louvered filter.

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post #44 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
Simple explanation, the Panasonic was in store mode otherwise I don't know


256 level gradient


macro shot of my panel

if you get the itch to try that I would love to see but my camera is not really up to par with yours

haha, no. I spend a good deal of time with all of them. they even set up the f8500 in the dark room so I could compare(for whatever reason EVERYBODY had the f8500 in the bright showrooms with the lcd's, and nowhere near the other plasmas). I'm friends with one of the managers at the store, so I was given free reign with the remotes and my thumb drive . really though, it was like I literally could not make the wrong decision. they all looked so similar 90% of the time. even now, I have moments where I wonder what the zt60 would have been like, and then I watch something else, and I remember how that type of content looked nicer on the f8500, and then I look at my bank account and wonder if I should have gotten the st60...
I mean, that still doesn't mean I got to see calibrated displays in my exact viewing environment. but I got to tweak displays to at least give them a reasonable comparison.



as for the gradiant thing, what am I trying? anything I can do to help put more info out there I will. but I'm not sure if we'd be comparing displays or comparing cameras, haha
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post #45 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
on the secnd picture that is not burn in its camera reflection oops
again, I'm not sure if this is really comparing our displays as much as it is our cameras, but what the heck.


with my camera I wasn't really able to achieve what I saw on screen with a single shot. so instead I took two exposures. one that showed reasonably close to what I saw in the bright areas of the screen(the dark exposure), and one that shows reasonably close to what I saw in the dark areas of the screen(the brighter exposures). in generally, it seemed to be that the gradation is silky smooth on the top end, and that at a certain brightness(or darkness I guess?), it gets a little choppy. being that I've never calibrated the gamma on this tv, it could be an issue with my settings as much as it is with the tv itself. I honestly don't know. also, worth noting, but some of the colors look WAY off on the camera. pretty much all the secondary colors, and green kinda too. ok, blue and red are really the only ones my camera can capture accurately apparently, haha

even with all this effort, the photos displayed on my screen next to the originals, look MUCH worse imo. there's definitely a significant loss of quality through photos

the dark exposures(the right side of the images show what I see), ISO 200, 1/8 exposure









the bright exposures(the left side of the image show what I see), ISO 200, 1 sec exposure






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post #46 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 09:25 PM
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About LCD ageing gracefully. All I can tell you is that I have been around Plasma and LCD displays for years as a broadcast technician. We originally had plasma virtual monitor walls. That is where you create little monitors on a big LCD or Plasma panel. You have seen these on TV News Sets.
The plasma panels ran 24/7 for 4 or 5 years and were completely trashed. Steady images destroyed them. We put a full screen picture on one of them and all you saw was burned in images, with about 50 or more % loss of brightness. The panels went to the dumpster as they were useless. No exaggeration here.
We bought LCD panels. They are running 24/7 for 5 or 6 years now. Same scenario but if we put a full screen image on them, they produce a beautiful vivid picture as good as new with no loss of quality or more than a bare trace of IR. Yes they age gracefully.
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post #47 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
is anybody other than Samsung doing this though? they were the only ones I was aware of. it's funny, cause I've looked at the EH series Samsung, and I'd honestly take one of those over the 'mid-range' options. not until the dimming versions(I think 7series usually?) would I actually consider it an upgrade model.
RE/Tube twister

Rear lit can go either way all the way from a cheap no name set to a premium flagship model with tons of local dimming zones like some of the Sony 9.5x

Not sure but I think most of the Samsung 5xxx are rear lit and 6xxx and up are mostly edge lit might want to check B4 buying one, the edge lights are skinny and the rear lit are phatt not too hard to tell .

Might be worth looking at a Sony W600B if you are thinking of A Samsung 5xxx or 6xxx it's rear lit with Samsung
panel (no panel lottery) and most times a better picture .

I looked at the 2013 /early 2014 5x,6x Sammy I almost bought one but couldn't find one with the right panel codes at BB having seen them both ways I can tell you it makes a significant difference . They were out of the Sony R4 I wanted to begin with so I went home and bought it on line , worked out fine . I don't much care for Samsung chicken foot stands anyway !☺☺ OTOH if you get an rear lit Sammy *with the right panel they are real decent if they had one I might be watching it now !

I might still have most of the Samsung panel lottery codes if you need them if not the AVS Samsung panel lottery thread has them a search should turn something up loooong thread !



2014 Sony W600B (entry level Sony ) are phat direct lit Samsung SPVA with the back light fabricated and assembled to the Samsung SPVA LCD cell by Foxconn . 2013 Sony R4 are also like that.

Sony store web site is incorrect (calls 2014 W600B dynamic edge light ) believe it or not ,some retailers and most reviewers have it right though .

We verified the W600B like 2013 R4 is rear lit in another thread here .Besides it's to phatt for edge light anybody can see that !

I have last year 40" Sony R4 in my bedroom it's on right now watching Fox Gretta Wire hate on Obama ☺ . I thought it was best 40 -48 inch LCD out there. I looked at all the usual suspects including 2014 Vizio FALD that had a middling panel with minimal FALD zones helping out the black levels,

R4 Sony's good native black levels ,contrast ,color (not crushing shadow detail and blacks or clipping whites ) and better fine detail (+ fit and finish ) won out here .Below are the calibrated panel measurements from the 2013 R4 panel
OFC I'm spoiled by my Sammie PDP and all ☺

2013 Sony KDL 40R450 Black: 0.022 cd/m2 Contrast: 4750 : 1 Samsung SPVA ( decent for LCD)
(no local dimming 50 LED back light ) still spanks a lot of LCD 40-48's and some bigger ones out there .

2014 W600B is similar Samsung SPVA rear lit panel .

Lots of the the Sony W8,W8.5 and 9X are edge lit (usually AUO AMVA and a few LGD S-IPS edge lit panels ,some with dynamic zone dimming .

OTOH Some of the TOTL W9/ 9.5 x are rear light FALD LGD S-IPS
with the 85" being I believe an CMO Innolux of some sort. Don't know about the 70" could be anything in there
maybe even a Sharp ASV for all I know ! The new 79 is LGD S- IPS AFAIK anyway !

Looks like Sony is spreading the love around these days , beats a panel lottery though like the 5xxx,6xxx Samsung and some others sets over there at least you know what you are getting panel wise @ Sony .

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post #48 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA Junkie View Post
About LCD ageing gracefully. All I can tell you is that I have been around Plasma and LCD displays for years as a broadcast technician. We originally had plasma virtual monitor walls. That is where you create little monitors on a big LCD or Plasma panel. You have seen these on TV News Sets.
The plasma panels ran 24/7 for 4 or 5 years and were completely trashed. Steady images destroyed them. We put a full screen picture on one of them and all you saw was burned in images, with about 50 or more % loss of brightness. The panels went to the dumpster as they were useless. No exaggeration here.
We bought LCD panels. They are running 24/7 for 5 or 6 years now. Same scenario but if we put a full screen image on them, they produce a beautiful vivid picture as good as new with no loss of quality or more than a bare trace of IR. Yes they age gracefully.
I totally believe that the lcd panels work as good today as they did when they were purchased. I just don't believe that they ever produced a beautiful picture


plasmas definitely aren't designed to be abused. much like you wouldn't buy a Ferrari and then drive it through the snow, or take it off-roading. LCD's are like the suv of the tv world. they aren't the fastest, they don't corner the best, they don't haul the most, but you can do just about anything to them and they will handle it. thing is, it's still really nice to take that sports car to the track, just like it's much nicer to watch a movie on the plasma.
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post #49 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
RE/Tube twister

Rear lit can go either way all the way from a cheap no name set to a premium flagship model with tons of local dimming zones like some of the Sony 9.5x

2014 Sony W600B (entry level Sony ) are phat direct lit Samsung SPVA with the back light fabricated and assembled to the Samsung SPVA LCD cell by Foxconn . 2013 Sony R4 are like that.

Sony store web site is incorrect (calls 2014 W600B dynamic edge light ) believe it or not some retailers and most reviewers have it right though .

We verified the W600B was rear lit in another thread here .Besides it's to phatt for edge light anybody can see that !

I have last year 40" Sony R4 in my bedroom it's on right now watching Fox Gretta Wire hate on Obama ☺ . I thought it was best 40 -48 inch LCD out there. I looked at all the usual suspects including 2014 Vizio FALD that had a middling panel with minimal FALD zones helping out the black levels,

R4 Sony's good native black levels ,contrast ,color (not crushing shadow detail and blacks or clipping whites and better fine detail (+ fit and finish ) won out here .Below are the calibrated panel measurements from the 2013 R4 panel
OFC I'm spoiled by my Sammie PDP and all ☺

2013 Sony KDL 40R450 Black: 0.022 cd/m2 Contrast: 4750 : 1 Samsung SPVA ( decent for LCD)
(no local dimming 50 LED back light ) still spanks a lot of LCD 40-48's and some bigger ones out there .

2014 W600B is similar Samsung SPVA rear lit panel .

Lots of he the Sony W8,W8.5 and 9X are edge lit (usually AUO AMVA and a few LGD S-IPS edge lit panels ,some with dynamic zone dimming .

OTOH Some of the TOTL W9/ 9.5 x are rear light FALD LGD S-IPS
with the 85" being I believe an CMO Innolux of some sort.

Looks like Sony is spreading the love around these days , beats a panel lottery though like the 5XXX,6XXX Samsung and some others sets over there at least you know what you are getting panel wise @ Sony .
thanks for the info, seems like everytime I'm actually in the market, nobody is offering the direct lit models I'm looking for. a couple years ago I was looking for a cheaper(say mid range) lcd for the bedroom. I think sony was still making FALD units, but I was looking in the 700ish range(for a 40+). last year I would have considered a top end FALD set, but sony moved to the 4k tv with ridiculous speakers and edgelighting.


kind of funny, but I now consider the thickness of the tv to be a good thing. I steer clear of anything under 3inches, haha
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post #50 of 77 Old 07-13-2014, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA Junkie View Post
About LCD ageing gracefully. All I can tell you is that I have been around Plasma and LCD displays for years as a broadcast technician. We originally had plasma virtual monitor walls. That is where you create little monitors on a big LCD or Plasma panel. You have seen these on TV News Sets.
The plasma panels ran 24/7 for 4 or 5 years and were completely trashed. Steady images destroyed them. We put a full screen picture on one of them and all you saw was burned in images, with about 50 or more % loss of brightness. The panels went to the dumpster as they were useless. No exaggeration here.
We bought LCD panels. They are running 24/7 for 5 or 6 years now. Same scenario but if we put a full screen image on them, they produce a beautiful vivid picture as good as new with no loss of quality or more than a bare trace of IR. Yes they age gracefully.
No they don't. You take a hit on contrast and response time with age. LEDs don't age them as much as the old backlights, so they will last longer. But the more motion, and heat you put into a LCD screen; the more it sticks and loses contrast. And since I live in a colder climate; I don't have to worry about AC in the winter.
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post #51 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 06:37 AM
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....Time for OLED! They have IR worse than plasma. Plus the phosphors age at different rates so they start looking like crap just like CRTs when they age.
Got any links to back up these statements?

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post #52 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by zzdocxx View Post
Went over to Best Buy today.

They didn't have the 8500 series on display, but then I don't really want to spend $2000+ on a set for my mom's house -- she's 89 and has my old 42" CRT currently, so I am thinking the 5300 series, the 51" ought to do it. That will sidestep the whole pentile issue.

It crossed my mind that maybe I should start over from scratch and just look at LED/LCDs. Mainly, they are cooler and seem lighter and more readily available.

But the manufacturers play so many word games. "Full array" to me implies backlit. But the BB guys said no, they are edge lit. Then there is "effective refresh rate", "Clear Motion Rate", and so forth.

Confusing !


(PS Thanks for all the comments.)

5300 series all the way if budget is a concern!

LED/LCD's usually disappoint plasma owners.
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post #53 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
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Got any links to back up these statements?
I think he's 'technically' correct. but the flaw is that he's comparing early oled tech, to fully matured plasma tech.


if we look at the first gen of plasma compared to the first gen of oled, I'm pretty sure oled comes out WAY ahead!
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WOLED does not suffer from such an aging differential with its filter usage, though that's only theoretical. We'll have to see how that holds up in actuality.
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post #55 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
plasmas definitely aren't designed to be abused. much like you wouldn't buy a Ferrari and then drive it through the snow, or take it off-roading. LCD's are like the suv of the tv world. they aren't the fastest, they don't corner the best, they don't haul the most, but you can do just about anything to them and they will handle it..
That's why I bought my wife an LCD. She doesn't know when to shut it off, even when we're asleep.

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post #56 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 01:38 PM
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Yes I am referring to earlier OLED before I read this today. I got my original information from possibly one of those "OLED is on the way!" articles in a magazine. It talked about phosphor aging as well as suseptability to burn in. That made my mind up.
Plasma can claim they stopped burn in by rotating pixels. Instead of a readable burn in I would guess you would get a smudge. OLED claims they have fixed the uneven phosphor aging issue by altering the blue phosphors, but they don't say much about burn in except for being a positive.
All I know is I will take LCD over either of the other two technologies. Yes Plasma and OLED have great off axis pictures but I can watch letterbox and pillarbox content on my LCD without worrying about it.
Randy here is a link for you. Say what you want about my source here but I find their content very accurate where I have insider knowledge. I did not author this article. If you scroll down to (Plasma, LCD and OLED displays) it will back up my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_burn-in

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post #57 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie_RIP View Post
WOLED does not suffer from such an aging differential with its filter usage, though that's only theoretical. We'll have to see how that holds up in actuality.
It doesn't suffer from differential aging in the sense that the blue subpixel won't age faster than the red or green if you were to display a solid white field for prolonged periods, but like any technology that loses luminance as it ages it can have burn-in (like CRT or Plasma).
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post #58 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OTA Junkie View Post
Yes I am referring to earlier OLED before I read this today. I got my original information from possibly one of those "OLED is on the way!" articles in a magazine. It talked about phosphor aging as well as suseptability to burn in. That made my mind up.
Plasma can claim they stopped burn in by rotating pixels. Instead of a readable burn in I would guess you would get a smudge. OLED claims they have fixed the uneven phosphor aging issue by altering the blue phosphors, but they don't say much about burn in except for being a positive.
All I know is I will take LCD over either of the other two technologies. Yes Plasma and OLED have great off axis pictures but I can watch letterbox and pillarbox content on my LCD without worrying about it.
Randy here is a link for you. Say what you want about my source here but I find their content very accurate where I have insider knowledge. I did not author this article. If you scroll down to (Plasma, LCD and OLED displays) it will back up my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_burn-in
Anyone can edit Wikipedia. What's pertinent are the references and if they can be deemed as reliable and accurate sources. Again, the problem with uneven color aging is more applicable to RGB OLED implementations (like that of Samsung where they simply increased the size of the blue subpixel to accommodate for faster aging). With WOLED and color filters, that concern is no more. I completely understand the desire to avoid them for fear of uneven wear concerns, but the PQ enhancement is more than worth it to me (not just for wider viewing angles, but OLED has an infinite contrast ratio with no blooming artifacts).
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post #59 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It doesn't suffer from differential aging in the sense that the blue subpixel won't age faster than the red or green if you were to display a solid white field for prolonged periods, but like any technology that loses luminance as it ages it can have burn-in (like CRT or Plasma).
I don't think I ever suggested it couldn't, and the topic of discussion was the early fading of blue. Still would pick it over the alternatives.
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post #60 of 77 Old 07-14-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie_RIP View Post
Anyone can edit Wikipedia. What's pertinent are the references and if they can be deemed as reliable and accurate sources. Again, the problem with uneven color aging is more applicable to RGB OLED implementations (like that of Samsung where they simply increased the size of the blue subpixel to accommodate for faster aging). With WOLED and color filters, that concern is no more. I completely understand the desire to avoid them for fear of uneven wear concerns, but the PQ enhancement is more than worth it to me (not just for wider viewing angles, but OLED has an infinite contrast ratio with no blooming artifacts).
agreed, the choice really comes down to performance vs convenience. the plasma/oled definitely has better performance, but the lcd definitely has more convenience.


for me, I'd rather do 1% more 'maintenance' and get the better image quality. it's also why I prefer a projector over a flat screen. it's a little more work, but so much more impressive
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