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post #1 of 77 Old 07-09-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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New Plasma ?

Considering buying a new set, nothing wrong with the old one but I might give it to my mom.

I have been very happy with my set, though it does put out a bit of heat.

Current set is a Panasonic 42" Viera TH42PZ77

It isn't a higher-end line model, I purchased it from a tip on AVSForums, at Sears on sale for ~$1000 in November 2007. When I started shopping, all the sales people had me convinced LCD was the best, but the more I read here, I came to realize that most people who could back up their opinions with facts, said plasma was better.

Costco has a 60" Samsung PN60F5350AF (Costco usually has their own model codes but similar to regular models), on sale for ~$750 currently. I saw it in the store, the glass is reflective, not like my current Panny.

Sears has a "Panasonic TCP54S1 54" VIERA Highdefinition 1080p Plasma TV" for $1400, and some various other Panny, LG, and Samsung models.

Questions for the experts:

Are plasmas in the lower ranges still better than LCDs at similar cost? Does it make any difference if I purchase Plasma vs. so-called "LED" ?

How about the energy used and heat put out ? Has that improved with plasmas?

How do the brands compare nowadays? (LG, Panasonic, Samsung are what I am seeing.)


Thank you, I hope no one minds the large font, I am finding it easier to read at my age.

PS. <$1000 is a good price point for me.
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post #2 of 77 Old 07-09-2014, 08:29 PM
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Yes, even the cheapest plasma will still put out better contrast ratio than the best LCDs. Ok, an LG plasma may not claim such feat, but it's an easy fix with a black tweak.

The Samsung F5300 is a good model. It has decent black level, adequate calibration options, and good enough brightness for a plasma. Power consumption & heat output wise, you shouldn't expect a big improvement, but I personally find them non-issues.

The 60 inches one you're looking at uses pentile-array though. If you don't like it, you can get the 51 or 64 inch ones instead.
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post #3 of 77 Old 07-09-2014, 08:43 PM
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Nice piece here from a Consumer Reports guy on why now is the time to buy a plasma. Not sure about his LG comments (haven't seen one myself) but the basic advice is sound...

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/...so-go-buy-one/
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post #4 of 77 Old 07-09-2014, 10:54 PM
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I honestly think there's more reason to buy plasma if you are limited by budget. I'm willing to accept that there's a possibility that an ultra high end LED (like with full array local dimming backlight) could provide a nice picture, but it's been my experience that edgelit led's without any dimming(which is what you're going to find in that 'budget' range) are among the worst displays ever made. the truth is, a couple years ago I bought an edgelit led, and exchanged it for another because mine was defective. when I got the second one home, it had the same defect. a couple hours online, and I discovered this thing called 'flashlighting' and that the 'defect' my TV's had was actually considered an acceptable part of the design. I ended up returning it, and finding a CCFL backlit LCD instead, which was far better imo.


since it seems like edgelit led/lcd TV's is the new 'bottom end', it's something I would personally avoid at all costs. if you want to avoid plasma, you NEED to spend more money and get an lcd with some kind of local dimming. so at the 2k-3k market, I could see there being a bit of competition. but at the 1k and under, there really is no option for lcd imo. plasma is the only acceptable option in that price range(for that size tv anyway). unless you can still find a CCFL backlit display, haha. I'd take a no-name CCFL over an edgelit Samsung anyday

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post #5 of 77 Old 07-10-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post
Yes, even the cheapest plasma will still put out better contrast ratio than the best LCDs. Ok, an LG plasma may not claim such feat, but it's an easy fix with a black tweak.

The Samsung F5300 is a good model. It has decent black level, adequate calibration options, and good enough brightness for a plasma. Power consumption & heat output wise, you shouldn't expect a big improvement, but I personally find them non-issues.

The 60 inches one you're looking at uses pentile-array though. If you don't like it, you can get the 51 or 64 inch ones instead.
Thanks, that is great info. I don't really need a huge set but that seems to be what's available currently. I had no idea about that pentile display, I take it some people don't care for it ?

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Originally Posted by johnny dollar View Post
Nice piece here from a Consumer Reports guy on why now is the time to buy a plasma. Not sure about his LG comments (haven't seen one myself) but the basic advice is sound...

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/...so-go-buy-one/
Very helpful, I didn't know that all the plasmas would be discontinued. Like the author of the article, I don't understand it. People seem so brainwashed by LCD/LED . (Just like I was when I started.)

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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I honestly think there's more reason to buy plasma if you are limited by budget. I'm willing to accept that there's a possibility that an ultra high end LED (like with full array local dimming backlight) could provide a nice picture, but it's been my experience that edgelit led's with any dimming(which is what you're going to find in that 'budget' range) are among the worst displays ever made. the truth is, a couple years ago I bought an edgelit led, and exchanged it for another because mine was defective. when I got the second one home, it had the same defect. a couple hours online, and I discovered this thing called 'flashlighting' and that the 'defect' my TV's had was actually considered an acceptable part of the design. I ended up returning it, and finding a CCFL backlit LCD instead, which was far better imo.


since it seems like edgelit led/lcd TV's is the new 'bottom end', it's something I would personally avoid at all costs. if you want to avoid plasma, you NEED to spend more money and get an lcd with some kind of local dimming. so at the 2k-3k market, I could see there being a bit of competition. but at the 1k and under, there really is no option for lcd imo. plasma is the only acceptable option in that price range(for that size tv anyway). unless you can still find a CCFL backlit display, haha. I'd take a no-name CCFL over an edgelit Samsung anyday
I see what you mean but I should clarify, I don't want to avoid plasma !

I don't want to spend too much and am very happy with my plasma set. When I bought my set, most of the LCDs had that stuttering stop-action effect when tracking a fast-moving object in sports, for example. No way I wanted that ! ! !

Also -- I bought an extended Mack warranty plan from Beach Camera last time around. Never needed it, but wondering if that is still the preferred company.


I really appreciate all the help.
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post #6 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I'm willing to accept that there's a possibility that an ultra high end LED (like with full array local dimming backlight) could provide a nice picture, but it's been my experience that edgelit led's with any dimming(which is what you're going to find in that 'budget' range) are among the worst displays ever made.

since it seems like edgelit led/lcd TV's is the new 'bottom end', it's something I would personally avoid at all costs
For a couple of years now the entry level LED LCDs are backlit with no local dimming. I don’t believe they are full-array backlit at entry level but they are backlit, not edge lit. They are called “D-LED” which stands for direct lit.
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post #7 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I am so day late and a dollar short on the Panny ST60, doh !

Just started looking and had no idea they were going out of production.

What's the practical effect of having the pentile display ? I think I understand it scrimps a little bit on the number of pixels, is that the gist of it ?

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post #8 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 08:55 AM
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Looks like I am so day late and a dollar short on the Panny ST60, doh !

Just started looking and had no idea they were going out of production.
You're a little more than a day late on the Panasonic! Those were all but gone by the end of last year.

Why don't you check out the owners thread for the samsung? Also, AVS's Mark H. (Imagic) recently posted a thread called 'why I bought a plasma in 2014' that discusses his experience with the 5 series. Spoiler: he really liked the set but returned it due to a uniformity defect and ended up upgrading to the F8500 instead of exchanging for another F5.
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post #9 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 10:33 AM
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LG Option

You probably can't go wrong with an LG option. They have a 60" plasma PB6600 I think, that will easily fit your budget at around $700-$850. If you go to their thread, you will find all kinds of owners that love this model. I have an old LG 720p model that has been great for me. I just upgraded to the Samsung PN64H5000, but at $1300 it sounds like it is out of your budget. I can see how it compares to my LG when it arrives today.
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post #10 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 11:30 AM
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What's the practical effect of having the pentile display ? I think I understand it scrimps a little bit on the number of pixels, is that the gist of it ?
Close. Pentile displays halve the number of red/blue sub pixels by sharing them with the neighboring pixel. This is why Samsung advertises their pentile displays as 1080p vertical resolution as opposed to 1080p full resolution (the pentile retains the vertical resolution but suffers a lack of 'resolution'/detail in the horizontal space).
The idea behind the pentile display is that it reduces power consumption-- something very important to mobile devices with power hungry LCD and OLED screens. Samsung simply adopted the concept for large plasma screens. I suspect this was their forward thinking plan to keep plasma competitive in both cost and in the ever-tightening power consumption regulations-- too bad they're abandoning plasma. One important thing to note is that the one big disadvantage of a pentile screen, it's lack of horizontal detail, isn't very important for 'retina' style small screens but could potentially be an issue in larger sizes if you're sitting close enough to see the matrix. Most owners and reviewers, however, claim the effect is invisible at best and minimal at worst.

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post #11 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 01:40 PM
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There are still some Panasonics floating around if the price is right. It also seems like people are still stumbling upon display models, displays lost in the corner of warehouses etc. I would love to stumble upon a reasonably priced ZT60, but the ones I've seen are seriously marked up.
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post #12 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
One important thing to note is that the one big disadvantage of a pentile screen, it's lack of horizontal detail, isn't very important for 'retina' style small screens but could potentially be an issue in larger sizes if you're sitting close enough to see the matrix. Most owners and reviewers, however, claim the effect is invisible at best and minimal at worst.
I've seen the Samsung pentile pdp on display and even at normal viewing distances (10 ft or less) I can see the screen door effect.

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post #13 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 04:50 PM
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I've seen the Samsung pentile pdp on display and even at normal viewing distances (10 ft or less) I can see the screen door effect.

Ian
You must have incredible eye sight! I can see the stepped 'brick' layout if I stick my nose to the screen and even from a 'normal' distance long verticle lines look a bit soft to me. But once a picture is up I don't see it. Now, I don't OWN one so I'm hesitant to say it wouldn't be something I would start to see if I looked at it everyday but from my limited experience in the store I think I'd consider it a non issue. Of course, 720 never bothered me either so I might just be blind!
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post #14 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 05:23 PM
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Samsung have a large horizontal gap between pixel rows, even the F8500 with socalled bigger cell structure is visibly unchanged from the rest of the lineup
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post #15 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 08:33 PM
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I've seen the Samsung pentile pdp on display and even at normal viewing distances (10 ft or less) I can see the screen door effect.

Ian
I'm not a huge fan of the Pentile pixel structure either, but I think I'd still favor the 60" Sammy Pentile over the 60" LG (and favor the 1080p Sammy 51F5300 over both).

All the recent LGs I've looked at had noticeable haloing. And I think the Sammy 60F5300 would have better blacks and contrast. Last thing I heard was that the current LGs can't be modded for better blacks like some of the older models. I haven't spent as much time with the LGs though, so my knowledge of them is limited.

The Sammy 60F5300 may also have some minor uniformity issues, if you care about such things.
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post #16 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 09:03 PM
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For a couple of years now the entry level LED LCDs are backlit with no local dimming. I don’t believe they are full-array backlit at entry level but they are backlit, not edge lit. They are called “D-LED” which stands for direct lit.
is anybody other than Samsung doing this though? they were the only ones I was aware of. it's funny, cause I've looked at the EH series samsungs, and I'd honestly take one of those over the 'mid-range' options. not until the dimming versions(I think 7series usually?) would I actually consider it an upgrade model.
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post #17 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 09:24 PM
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is anybody other than Samsung doing this though? they were the only ones I was aware of. it's funny, cause I've looked at the EH series samsungs, and I'd honestly take one of those over the 'mid-range' options. not until the dimming versions(I think 7series usually?) would I actually consider it an upgrade model.

I just bought an entry level “””Proscan 40" 1080p D-LED LCD TV - PLDED4016A””” for my music room. This is an entry level TV that can be had for under $280 when on sale. 3-HDMI inputs VGA-input Component input. Digital + Analog audio outputs etc. This is much better than a more expensive edge lit. It actually has a pretty good image and my only real beef is there is no backlight control. I have to find a back door to the service menu and turn it down a bit. I ran a few test patterns adjusted the brightness contrast and color and it really is not that bad for a cheap TV.

I would of bought the Sammy 43” 720p plasma for $299 which is better but in Canada the cheapest was $399 for the Sammy plasma and with taxes I paid $132 less for the LED LCD 1080p. That’s almost a third less.

I know other brands have very cheap LED backlit LCD TVs at entry level. RCA for sure as a friend has one. Edge lit TVs cost more to build look worse at enrty level and really the only advantage is the TV being thinner. Big deal. That’s why more manufactures are jumping at back lit TVs in the entry level category. Like I said at this price you don’t get full-array or local dimming.
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post #18 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 09:28 PM
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Samsung have a large horizontal gap between pixel rows, even the F8500 with socalled bigger cell structure is visibly unchanged from the rest of the lineup
it's funny, when I look at a solid white screen on my f8500, it really looks like there's the same amount of 'gap' between pixels both vertically and horizontally. but when I take a picture, it looks like this:

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post #19 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post
I just bought an entry level “””Proscan 40" 1080p D-LED LCD TV - PLDED4016A””” for my music room. This is an entry level TV that can be had for under $280 when on sale. 3-HDMI inputs VGA-input Component input. Digital + Analog audio outputs etc. This is much better than a more expensive edge lit. It actually has a pretty good image and my only real beef is there is no backlight control. I have to find a back door to the service menu and turn it down a bit. I ran a few test patterns adjusted the brightness contrast and color and it really is not that bad for a cheap TV.

I would of bought the Sammy 43” 720p plasma for $299 which is better but in Canada the cheapest was $399 for the Sammy plasma and with taxes I paid $132 less for the LED LCD 1080p. That’s almost a third less.

I know other brands have very cheap LED backlit LCD TVs at entry level. RCA for sure as a friend has one. Edge lit TVs cost more to build look worse at enrty level and really the only advantage is the TV being thinner. Big deal. That’s why more manufactures are jumping at back lit TVs in the entry level category. Like I said at this price you don’t get full-array or local dimming.


good to know. wish that was the case when I bought my last lcd for the bedroom. I had to return two edge-lit models and opted for a CCFL backlit version instead(it was about 6months later Samsung released their EH line, and I'm guessing other brands offered 'direct-lit' leds around then too). I never really understood why they made 'cheap' edgelit models to begin with. even now, it just boggles my mind how they can sell non-dimming edgelit models. it does seem weird that moving up from the entry models to the mid range, there is a decrease in performance now.
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post #20 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
it's funny, when I look at a solid white screen on my f8500, it really looks like there's the same amount of 'gap' between pixels both vertically and horizontally. but when I take a picture, it looks like this:
Glitch in the matrix
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post #21 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 10:33 PM
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I was in the market for a Panasonic plasma for a while, but was just saving up the funds. Then I looked and saw they had discontinued them.

I ended up getting the Samsung 51F8500 and couldn't be happier. The Panasonics still have a slight edge in contrast over this model, but on the other hand the Samsung has MUCH better brightness. Since this is in my main living room with windows, I feel this was a better fit all along. Samsung has also made better strides at eliminating IR according to this test. http://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-pla...-burn-in-test/
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post #22 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 11:05 PM
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Glitch in the matrix
haha, nice. and here I just thought I couldn't see the red/blue subpixels as clearly as the green ones
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post #23 of 77 Old 07-11-2014, 11:12 PM
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Strange "test", the pixel orbiter were disabled on the Panasonics and there are too many uncontrolled variables to draw a conclusion from 3 samples.

My panny has the same panel and after thousands of hours of computer monitor duties I can declare it is pretty much bulletproof, that said the 60 series are something different entirely and could be one of the worst in their history based on what some people say.
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post #24 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
it's funny, when I look at a solid white screen on my f8500, it really looks like there's the same amount of 'gap' between pixels both vertically and horizontally. but when I take a picture, it looks like this:

The Samsung F4500 720p has a similar horizontal gap between pixels, and my Panasonic 720 does not have such a gap-- but, the F4500 DESTROYS the Panasonic in PQ. Its not even close. In fact, even though the Panny lacks this gap in its pixels, its image shows light but distinct horizontal banding in its images, while the Sammy shows not such thing. Strange huh? So in the real world, the horizontal line only seems to be an issue when analysing close ups such as these.

Standing 5' from the set, even the 720p is beautiful with a good source.
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post #25 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
Strange "test", the pixel orbiter were disabled on the Panasonics and there are too many uncontrolled variables to draw a conclusion from 3 samples.

My panny has the same panel and after thousands of hours of computer monitor duties I can declare it is pretty much bulletproof, that said the 60 series are something different entirely and could be one of the worst in their history based on what some people say.
Unlike my Panasonic C2, my S60 has never shown a hint of IR. Although I don't game, I do watch a lot of sports and plenty of letterbox content.

Ian
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post #26 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 08:18 AM
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good info,it just boggles my mind how they can sell non-dimming edgelit models. it does seem weird that moving up from the entry models to the mid range, [IMG]http://*******/rfX8Ga[/IMG] there is a decrease in performance now.thank you
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post #27 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Mr. FierceGT can you remind me, which size is your 8500 ?

Thanks, I don't completely understand the photos but I can see there is a big space with black going horizontally, I think that's what we are talking about here .
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post #28 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
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I've seen the Samsung pentile pdp on display and even at normal viewing distances (10 ft or less) I can see the screen door effect.

Ian
Bull$hit! I have the 60F5300 and there is no screen door effect from 8' away, let alone 10'. I have better than average eye site.

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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Unlike my Panasonic C2, my S60 has never shown a hint of IR. Although I don't game, I do watch a lot of sports and plenty of letterbox content.
Oh come on, every plasma gets IR if left on the same screen for long enough. Stop being a cheerleader for Panasonic. I love their sets and had one for 5 years, but it's really annoying to read your posts in every thread gushing over them as if they have no faults.
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Last edited by StinDaWg; 07-12-2014 at 04:37 PM.
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post #29 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Bull$hit! I have the 60F5300 and there is no screen door effect from 8' away, let alone 10'. I have better than average eye site.


Oh come on, every plasma gets IR if left on the same screen for long enough. Stop being a cheerleader for Panasonic. I love their sets and had one for 5 years, but it's really annoying to read your posts in every thread gushing over them as if they have no faults.
Agree with StinDaWg here. I have 2 different 50" 720p plasmas and neither exhibits any visible SDE from 10 ft away. I find it very hard to believe one can perceive a SDE on a 60" 1080p set from 10', even if its the pentile set.

Ive seen the 60F5300 in store, and SDE is perceivable from 2 to 3 ft for sure, unlike the non-pentile (and yes, smaller, 51" version).
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post #30 of 77 Old 07-12-2014, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
The Samsung F4500 720p has a similar horizontal gap between pixels, and my Panasonic 720 does not have such a gap-- but, the F4500 DESTROYS the Panasonic in PQ. Its not even close. In fact, even though the Panny lacks this gap in its pixels, its image shows light but distinct horizontal banding in its images, while the Sammy shows not such thing. Strange huh? So in the real world, the horizontal line only seems to be an issue when analysing close ups such as these.

Standing 5' from the set, even the 720p is beautiful with a good source.
for what it's worth, one of the reasons I eventually chose the f8500 over the vt/zt60 last year was a similar experience. now I've never actually looked that closely at pixel structure before, but when I compared the f8500 to the panny's, the f8500 just had a 'clearer' look to it. to me, it LOOKED as if it had less space between pixels, although now it sounds like that's the opposite of the truth


so I would agree, we need to factor in real world viewing too. I mean the RGB pattern that is so clearly shown in my picture looks like a solid white on the screen. if I can't see the individual subpixels, I'm not going to see that gap either.
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