Thoughts on Samsung f8500 vs Pioneer KRP-500m - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post
Well there you go - it's the closest thing in black to a KURO the VT/ or ZT. Although you will lose the black levels in a blackout room in comparison to the 'KURO' of course

But it's not surprising your findings - consistent in fact to the review of the OLED in What Hi Fi Sound & Vision.

Apart from the out and out black level of the OLED they thought the VT was a better display in a few ways overall.

I certainly wouldn't kick an early OLED out of bed if i didn't have a 9.5G though.

But when its in its stride in a few years it's the natural replacement for my Kuro...If Crystal LED doesn't get out of the gates at all that is - then that is naturally the first choice if it does. Regardless if i have to steal beg and/or borrow.

Rotfl
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
Yes i know someone with a D6500 and he says it's a lovely display in quite a few ways - except for the issue noted above. Pity that.
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
Yeah, I've noticed it too, especially when you cut from a bright scene to a totally or almost totally black image - after about a half second, the blacks get a lot darker. For most content and even for fades to black, it's not noticeable. I think turning off black optimizer would stop this from happening, but I doubt it's worth the tradeoff in higher blacks.
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
I have over 1000 hours on my F8500. I do not notice the fluctuating blacks. I have my BO set to dark room, and watch in a totally dark room. Initially it was noticeable, but now the blacks are very stable. As far as blacks, my calibrated F8500 is equal to my calibrated 5020. Of course, the 5020 is no 500m. The 5020 was their lowest end model.

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Old 07-12-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
I find little difference in "dithering noise" between the 500M and F8500. The Kuro is a little noisier in bright areas, the Samsung is definitely noisier in dark areas (the Kuro has zero noise when displaying blacks vs the green "static" on the Samsung), so for me, it's a wash.


It's also completely a moot point for me on both displays, since I have to get closer than my normal viewing distance to see the noise on either one.


Other than that, I completely agree...the F8500 has a less aggressive ABL, which gives it more punch in bright scenes. But in a light-controlled environment, the 500M still dominates. I still have yet to see any flat panel with a better overall picture (contrast, depth, color, motion, etc), including OLED.
Hmmm, not sure about that. Even my tweaked 500M felt inferior (PQ) against the LG OLED.

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Well there you go - it's the closest thing in black to a KURO the VT/ or ZT. Although you will lose the black levels in a blackout room in comparison to the 'KURO' of course

But it's not surprising your findings - consistent in fact to the review of the OLED in What Hi Fi Sound & Vision.

Apart from the out and out black level of the OLED they thought the VT was a better display in a few ways overall.

I certainly wouldn't kick an early OLED out of bed if i didn't have a 9.5G though.

But when its in its stride in a few years it's the natural replacement for my Kuro...If Crystal LED doesn't get out of the gates at all that is - then that is naturally the first choice if it does. Regardless if i have to steal beg and/or borrow.

Rotfl
I dying to replace my 500M with OLED. It makes the room pitch black. Unbelievable experience.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:06 AM
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I've just gotten my new 50" f8500 to replace my D-Nice calibrated KRP-500m (which is for sale very cheaply in the classified section), and the differences between them are interesting.
Why would you replace a 50" with a 51"? I could understand going to a 60" or 64", but for 1"? Was something wrong with your Kuro?
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I have over 1000 hours on my F8500. I do not notice the fluctuating blacks. I have my BO set to dark room, and watch in a totally dark room. Initially it was noticeable, but now the blacks are very stable. As far as blacks, my calibrated F8500 is equal to my calibrated 5020. Of course, the 5020 is no 500m. The 5020 was their lowest end model.
How is that possible unless you have an unusually dark f8500 and an unusually light 5020? F8500 blacks are quoted in the .0018 range (.0014ish at very, very best..if I'm wrong someone feel free to correct me with a calibration report that is representative of most) and the 5020's are .001....regardless of if it has advanced picture controls, the black level of the non elites are no higher than the TV model elites
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
I was told that the floating black issue was mainly cleaned up by firmware rollouts, but not 100% solved. I wish I could watch actual content on an 8500 instead of an endless highlight loop at Magnolia.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Why would you replace a 50" with a 51"? I could understand going to a 60" or 64", but for 1"? Was something wrong with your Kuro?
Yeah, it will occasionally show a subtle "cloud" of purplish/pink tinted pixels in lighter areas of an image. It's not that bad, but that's why I'm selling it so cheaply.

I've wanted to get something new for a while, even before this problem developed. The 500m has such a noisy picture.

I considered getting a bigger one, but I rent my house and can't be sure that I'll always be in a place where a 60+ inch TV makes sense. Also, over 60" I've noticed that pixels on a 1080p image can be a little distracting.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post
5One thing that was not mentioned at least from what I skim read through this thread is the F8500 suffers from fluctuating blacks specially if you use "Dark Room" for blacks tweak in the advanced settings. This can be quite distracting. Check out the review done by Chad B. which details this fluctuating black issue. The blacks are dark enough but they step up getting bright and darker hence fluctuation. I owned a D6500 Samsug and this problem was very noticeable . I decided to buy an St60 which has stable blacks. I love it I wouldn't go back to the Samsung. This is just something you might consider when comparing to your Kuro.
You have to be a little careful referencing old reviews. For example, nearly all the old reviews state that the black levels jump when you engage the 24Hz mode, Cinema Smooth. While it was true when the reviews were written it's no longer true. Later reviews, like this HD Guru one, point out that it was fixed with a firmware update. They specifically tested for it and found that black levels did not increase when Cinema Smooth was enabled.

Also, Robert Zohn stated that he and VE worked with Samsung on some issues and they improved the floating blacks in a firmware update mid last year. I'm not sure to what degree or the severity of the remaining black float though. While ideally the blacks wouldn't float any, the dark room black optimizer is a bit like a dynamic iris. You get better black levels, but they will change some depending on the APL of the screne. And if we're comparing to other displays, blacks float like crazy on projectors, especially those with a dynamic iris yet I don't see too many reviewers or users suggesting that otherwise well implemented dynamic irises should be turned off due to black float. The black float on projectors, even those without an iris, is orders of magnitude worse than what has been reported for the F8500. 50,000:1 sequential contrast turns into ~500:1 ANSI.
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:00 PM
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How is that possible unless you have an unusually dark f8500 and an unusually light 5020? F8500 blacks are quoted in the .0018 range (.0014ish at very, very best..if I'm wrong someone feel free to correct me with a calibration report that is representative of most) and the 5020's are .001....regardless of if it has advanced picture controls, the black level of the non elites are no higher than the TV model elites
I'm basing it on what I see in a totally dark room, not actual measurements. So perhaps my eyes are not as good as they use to be. The F8500 produces better colors that the 5020. The F8500 has the 10 point adjustments, while the 5020 only allows for adjustments to the gains and offsets. So you can never get as accurate with the 5020. And the ABL on the 5020 keeps the 5020 darker than the F8500. Unless you get into the service menu of 5020 and bump up the ABL setting. Then you increase the buzzing.

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Old 07-12-2014, 12:03 PM
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I was told that the floating black issue was mainly cleaned up by firmware rollouts, but not 100% solved. I wish I could watch actual content on an 8500 instead of an endless highlight loop at Magnolia.
Yes it was fixed. I was speaking more about the response time when the BO kicks in during dark scenes, not the floating blacks that change during a dark scene. When the tv is new, the response time for BO to kick in is not as fast as when the tv ages a bit. Now I don't even notice when BO kicks in, as it does it so fast now.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:35 PM
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Yes it was fixed. I was speaking more about the response time when the BO kicks in during dark scenes, not the floating blacks that change during a dark scene. When the tv is new, the response time for BO to kick in is not as fast as when the tv ages a bit. Now I don't even notice when BO kicks in, as it does it so fast now.
Would like to hear more confirmation of this as that sounds unrealistic that it would just fix itself over time. I have a 60F5300 with about 200 hours on it and delayed response time/floating blacks are quite noticeable with BO on.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:41 PM
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Would like to hear more confirmation of this as that sounds unrealistic that it would just fix itself over time. I have a 60F5300 with about 200 hours on it and delayed response time/floating blacks are quite noticeable with BO on.
The floating blacks was fixed on the F8500 late last year. Perhaps they never fixed it with the F5300. That is not the same with the time it takes BO to kick in. My guess it "appears" to kick in faster because the tv is at it's brightest right OOTB and thus bright to dark is more noticeable and seems to take longer for BO to kick in. Once the phosphors have aged and settled down, the tv is not as bright as new, and thus creating the appearance of the BO kicking in faster. Plus, perhaps a proper calibration makes it less noticeable too.
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:06 AM
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:10 AM
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The floating blacks was fixed on the F8500 late last year. Perhaps they never fixed it with the F5300. That is not the same with the time it takes BO to kick in. My guess it "appears" to kick in faster because the tv is at it's brightest right OOTB and thus bright to dark is more noticeable and seems to take longer for BO to kick in. Once the phosphors have aged and settled down, the tv is not as bright as new, and thus creating the appearance of the BO kicking in faster. Plus, perhaps a proper calibration makes it less noticeable too.
None of what you said really makes any sense. It's not like your panel is at half brightness at 1000 hours.

Are you sure you aren't confusing "floating blacks" with "brightness pops"? Brightness pops was fixed last year, if floating blacks on the F8500 was fixed, then why do so many people still report seeing it, even on newer sets with updated firmware?
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Old 07-13-2014, 05:37 AM
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@chrisherbert

You say your 500M has patches of magenta misfiring.

That points to it...1. Having a faulty or dying PSU or Y driver board probably... Or... 2. Being driven incorrectly on the whole in a voltage sense from the factory... Or.... 3. One of the drive modes (presumably drive mode 1) needing an independent voltage tweak inside the service menu.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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@chrisherbert

You say your 500M has patches of magenta misfiring.

That points to it...1. Having a faulty or dying PSU or Y driver board probably... Or... 2. Being driven incorrectly on the whole in a voltage sense from the factory... Or.... 3. One of the drive modes (presumably drive mode 1) needing an independent voltage tweak inside the service menu.
Thanks, I will check that out. I don't think the US versions have different drive modes though. Isn't that only to accommodate 50hz?

Also, I assume that messing with the voltages in the service menu isn't something that I should do lightly, correct? I have the rs232-USB adapter.

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Old 07-13-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
None of what you said really makes any sense. It's not like your panel is at half brightness at 1000 hours.

Are you sure you aren't confusing "floating blacks" with "brightness pops"? Brightness pops was fixed last year, if floating blacks on the F8500 was fixed, then why do so many people still report seeing it, even on newer sets with updated firmware?
I have never seen the floating blacks then. I watch in a totally dark room. BO and CS on. Perhaps there are a lot of defective sets out there. It can occur. Look at Panasonic with their fan issue, samsung with their buzzing issue on 60 inch models. Dont forget the rising black problem with pansonic ST models. Not every tv had those problems, but many did. If I would have seen floating black, my tv would have gone back for an exchange.
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I will check that out. I don't think the US versions have different drive modes though. Isn't that only to accommodate 50hz?

Also, I assume that messing with the voltages in the service menu isn't something that I should do lightly, correct? I have the rs232-USB adapter.
Since I've already replaced the 500m, I don't know if I'm going to go too crazy trying to fix it. It's a steal for anyone in the DC area who wants to tinker with it.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:43 PM
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Floating blacks are not fixed on the F8500. It's possible that with firmware updates they have been reduced, but they are definitely still there on the latest firmware.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I have never seen the floating blacks then. I watch in a totally dark room. BO and CS on. Perhaps there are a lot of defective sets out there. It can occur. Look at Panasonic with their fan issue, samsung with their buzzing issue on 60 inch models. Dont forget the rising black problem with pansonic ST models. Not every tv had those problems, but many did. If I would have seen floating black, my tv would have gone back for an exchange.
It's my understanding that floating blacks are inherent to the design of Samsung plasmas with BO turned on. They can't keep a stable level like Panasonics do. If they could, there would be no reason to have a black optimizer toggle at all.
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:00 PM
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Since I've already replaced the 500m, I don't know if I'm going to go too crazy trying to fix it. It's a steal for anyone in the DC area who wants to tinker with it.
True.

It's best to stay out of service menus - especially if you are wanting to sell it on.

It's a simple enough tweak for anyone with experience of the Kuro factory mode.

Cheers
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Old 07-14-2014, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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True.

It's best to stay out of service menus - especially if you are wanting to sell it on.

It's a simple enough tweak for anyone with experience of the Kuro factory mode.

Cheers
I was in there years ago to enable ISF modes, but that's it. I guess I should keep out.
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:10 PM
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Ok so I got my 64" f8500, and partially set it up (used the bottom portion box as the stand and plugged it in).

My initial impressions have left me on the fence regarding whether or not I'll keep this tv. First off, the picture quality is excellent, from the colors down to black level. I have my calibrated kuro elite pro 101fd as a reference directly behind it, and unfortunately, the black levels on the kuro are far superior to the Samsung, but it isn't a deal breaker.

My Samsung also doesn't suffer from intolerable buzzing so I'm happy about that. A few negatives that I've noticed that really bother me include dithering, dirty screen effect, and a faint horizontal band.

1. The dithering... even up close, my kuro produces zero rgb pixel noise in dark gray, shadowy areas. But, the Samsung seems to have rbg pixels 'dancing' around to reproduce areas that are not completely black. I have never seen noise like this before, but from what I read it is normal (ish). and only noticeable from 4-5 feet away. Can anyone else confirm that this is the case on their f8500, or is there something "special" about mine?

2. Dirty Screen Effect (DSE)... I play lots of video games on my kuro, and I was hoping the Samsung could replace it as my main gaming/movie tv. Unfortunately, when I pan around slowly in games with solid sky backgrounds (Zelda windwaker, infamous second son, etc.) I can't help but notice areas of the screen that are not uniform and have a cloudy/splotchy effect which is completely noticeable in everyday situations. My kuro, again, does not suffer from this at all. So i'm a little disappointed with the Samsung here.

3. Horizontal band... from what I read, most of the f8500s seem to have a faint horizontal band just up past the halfway point of the screen. This isn't very noticeable during everyday usage and I could definitely live with it.

4. Input lag... Oh man, it's soooo noticeable. A perfect test is having the wii u plugged in and fire up Mario kart 8. You can HEAR the lag between the gamepad controller and the tv. It's a split second, but it's there. I have lowered it by using game mode, but the picture is brutal. I'm sure I could calibrate a reasonable game mode picture though.

I realize that no panel is perfect, but I am used to a near perfect pro 101fd, which has met my standard for what a $3k+ tv should look like. I'm not sure whether other owners suffer from similar issues (as noted above) but i'm really on the fence here.

If the tv didn't have noticeable DSE, I would keep it without thinking. It's unfortunate that my eyes have been spoiled by the Kuro Elite, but it at least puts things into perspective for what I should expect out of a 3k+ tv.

I would like to hear the opinion of others on the matter noted above, and perhaps that will give me some perspective regarding my choice. There are very few of these TV's in my areas, so I don't think i'll have the option of exchanging, or swapping.

thanks.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:30 PM
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1) The greenish dithering in dark areas of the picture is normal. All F8500s do this as part of their method for achieving their lowered black levels. You shouldn't notice it from a normal viewing distance.

2) I have very little DSE on mine - about the same amount as on my 500M. I would take a clean microfiber cloth and distilled water and gently wipe down the screen. You could be looking at some factory smudge, and not necessarily permanent DSE.

3) I've never noticed a horizontal band.

4) The input lag is indeed awful on these displays. Game Mode helps a decent amount, and for gaming purposes you can tweak the picture to probably look "good enough". It is annoying to have to swap back and forth, though, especially since flipping Game Mode on and off requires a lot of button pressing as you navigate through the menus.

And no, you won't find a rival to your Kuro in terms of PQ outside of OLED, and even then, you'll find that current models have their own issues. I'm still quite pleased with the F8500, though, especially for lights-on viewing.
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Old 07-23-2014, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
1) The greenish dithering in dark areas of the picture is normal. All F8500s do this as part of their method for achieving their lowered black levels. You shouldn't notice it from a normal viewing distance.

2) I have very little DSE on mine - about the same amount as on my 500M. I would take a clean microfiber cloth and distilled water and gently wipe down the screen. You could be looking at some factory smudge, and not necessarily permanent DSE.

3) I've never noticed a horizontal band.

4) The input lag is indeed awful on these displays. Game Mode helps a decent amount, and for gaming purposes you can tweak the picture to probably look "good enough". It is annoying to have to swap back and forth, though, especially since flipping Game Mode on and off requires a lot of button pressing as you navigate through the menus.

And no, you won't find a rival to your Kuro in terms of PQ outside of OLED, and even then, you'll find that current models have their own issues. I'm still quite pleased with the F8500, though, especially for lights-on viewing.
Tbird. Thanks for responding to my queries. I am as well extremely pleased with the PQ of this set. The jump from 50" to 64" is amazing, and the only nagging item is the DSE on this set.

I'm scheduled for a replacement set, which I'll hopefully be able to compare side by side.

Fingers crossed.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:08 PM
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Yes i guess bigger would be better in some cases. But i'm such the videophile - and for my price range the 500M does everything i wish of it basically.

I would actually "downgrade" in size in pursuit of video perfection though to be absolutely frank tbh

If i had the doe - the DOLBY 42" PRM would without doubt have my name written all over it.

It's an LCD of course - but one of a kind and the 8" drop in size wouldn't bother me in the slightest - within a week i would be completely comfortable with it sitting extremely close as i do/can with the 500M

Of course it still has a bit of the ol off axis viewing issues that plague all LED LCD's. Regardless of how may LED's it may posses. But it's forgivable for the ultimate video device.

I couldn't care tuppence about OLED... As far as I'm concerned it's nothing but an overrated (so far) half decent stopgap until (maybe) Sony's Crystal LED makes an appearance hopefully.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:24 PM
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I couldn't care tuppence about OLED... As far as I'm concerned it's nothing but an overrated (so far) half decent stopgap until (maybe) Sony's Crystal LED makes an appearance hopefully.
Yikes.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:31 PM
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Yikes.
I would rather have Sony's prototype technology if i could. It may or may not make an appearance from a consumer standpoint. But it will probably go into pro grade displays first.
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