Thoughts on Samsung f8500 vs Pioneer KRP-500m - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thoughts on Samsung f8500 vs Pioneer KRP-500m

I've just gotten my new 50" f8500 to replace my D-Nice calibrated KRP-500m (which is for sale very cheaply in the classified section), and the differences between them are interesting.

Brightness

First, the f8500 is bright. Almost blindingly bright, even in scenes with a high APL.

The Kuro certainly got plenty bright at it's peak (40 or 50ftl in ISF Day, I think), but it would dim dramatically during bright scenes. The difference was especially noticeable in video content and movies shot in 1.78:1 aspect, since they fill the screen.

The dimness of plasmas has bothered me since they made the switch to 1080p. Until now, I'd never seen a 1080p panel that could come close to the blazing brightness of the old 720p and ED plasmas. I'm glad to see that it's back.

Stability of Images

This was always my major issue with the 500m. The dithering was extremely noticeable, even from halfway across the room. It looked like ants were crawling around on the screen. This must be one of those things that some people can see more than others, because it's always been immediately obvious to me when viewing any Kuro set. Luckily, the Samsung is much better, at least for stills or images without much movement. I can still see a little bit of dithering noise, especially if I get closer to the screen, but it's much improved over the Pioneer.

In motion, however, I see what look like noisy trails behind objects on the Samsung. In movies this isn't really an issue, but it's pretty obvious on 60fps content like video games. Maybe it's just something that I'll get accustomed to and stop seeing, like plasma phosphor trails.

Black Levels

When it comes to black levels, the Kuro is far superior to the f8500. I didn't expect this to be so noticeable. When the lights are on or there's some bright content on screen it isn't noticeable, but in darker scenes it's obvious. I didn't realize how much I'd been spoiled by the Kuro! The blacks are also a good bit noisier on the Samsung. While overall I find the Samsung to have a far cleaner picture, the darkest parts of the image are clearly noisier.

Color

The Kuro's color was essentially perfect, but during brighter scenes because the panel would dim, colors sometimes appeared to be a little muted. This is not an issue with the Samung. Colors pop regardless of how bright the image is. I haven't had the Samsung calibrated yet, but it looks pretty accurate to my eyes. Certainly it's a good starting point.

Input Lag

I've never thought of myself as someone who was sensitive to input lag on TVs, but boy, it's truly awful on the Samsung. When I feed sound directly to my AVR, lip sync is WAY off. I can adjust the audio delay and make this a non-issue for recorded content, but playing games is going to be tough. I haven't explored the GAME or PC modes, but I'm hesitant to accept the picture quality tradeoffs that those modes presumably bring. Especially since I use my Playstation 3 as my blu ray player, so I can't segregate the video games on a different input with different settings.
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post #2 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 12:13 PM
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Interesting. Thank you. As a Kuro owner I am considering an 8500 myself--primarily for a larger viewing area. It's a bit hard to peg down what exactly the 8500 has for a black level these days after numerous firmware releases, but the bottom line is that it will still have a very good picture, especially compared to any large, expensive LCD on the market today.
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post #3 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 12:26 PM
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Yikes. I just ordered a 64" version to replace my pro 101fd (same as KPR 500m). I play lots of ps3 and ps4 on my Kuro, so I was planning on making the Samsung my main gaming/movie display. Doesn't sound too promising.

so many mixed reviews on this tv...
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post #4 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
I've just gotten my new 50" f8500 to replace my D-Nice calibrated KRP-500m (which is for sale very cheaply in the classified section), and the differences between them are interesting.

Brightness

First, the f8500 is bright. Almost blindingly bright, even in scenes with a high APL.

The Kuro certainly got plenty bright at it's peak (40 or 50ftl in ISF Day, I think), but it would dim dramatically during bright scenes. The difference was especially noticeable in video content and movies shot in 1.78:1 aspect, since they fill the screen.

The dimness of plasmas has bothered me since they made the switch to 1080p. Until now, I'd never seen a 1080p panel that could come close to the blazing brightness of the old 720p and ED plasmas. I'm glad to see that it's back.

Stability of Images

This was always my major issue with the 500m. The dithering was extremely noticeable, even from halfway across the room. It looked like ants were crawling around on the screen. This must be one of those things that some people can see more than others, because it's always been immediately obvious to me when viewing any Kuro set. Luckily, the Samsung is much better, at least for stills or images without much movement. I can still see a little bit of dithering noise, especially if I get closer to the screen, but it's much improved over the Pioneer.

In motion, however, I see what look like noisy trails behind objects on the Samsung. In movies this isn't really an issue, but it's pretty obvious on 60fps content like video games. Maybe it's just something that I'll get accustomed to and stop seeing, like plasma phosphor trails.

Black Levels

When it comes to black levels, the Kuro is far superior to the f8500. I didn't expect this to be so noticeable. When the lights are on or there's some bright content on screen it isn't noticeable, but in darker scenes it's obvious. I didn't realize how much I'd been spoiled by the Kuro! The blacks are also a good bit noisier on the Samsung. While overall I find the Samsung to have a far cleaner picture, the darkest parts of the image are clearly noisier.

Color

The Kuro's color was essentially perfect, but during brighter scenes because the panel would dim, colors sometimes appeared to be a little muted. This is not an issue with the Samung. Colors pop regardless of how bright the image is. I haven't had the Samsung calibrated yet, but it looks pretty accurate to my eyes. Certainly it's a good starting point.

Input Lag

I've never thought of myself as someone who was sensitive to input lag on TVs, but boy, it's truly awful on the Samsung. When I feed sound directly to my AVR, lip sync is WAY off. I can adjust the audio delay and make this a non-issue for recorded content, but playing games is going to be tough. I haven't explored the GAME or PC modes, but I'm hesitant to accept the picture quality tradeoffs that those modes presumably bring. Especially since I use my Playstation 3 as my blu ray player, so I can't segregate the video games on a different input with different settings.
I don't know if I buy into all the praise of the 8500. Interesting that you noted the dimness of the plasmas since they went to 1080p, because I bought my 50" Panasonic TH-50PHD7uy (1366 x 768 resolution) in 2004, and it is not dim at all nor is it LCD bright....it is just right. I checked out the 64" 8500 at Best Buy last night, and I was impressed by the large size, and I vacillated on the picture quality. It just seems to be more of a glossy, clean look than compared to a more matte appearance of my Panasonic TH-50PHD7uy. I was watching the 8500 in the movie mode. Initial impression is that I still prefer the video quality of my set, but probably difficult to truly assess unless properly calibrated and in your home. However, I never calibrated my Panasonic, the black levels are great, and it was THE broadcast monitor for many years.

Maybe the picture quality of the Samsung was affected by the split of the Blu-Ray signal to mulitple televisons? Perhaps with the KURO you are noticing the same differences I see between the Panasonic and the Samsung.

I question forum members who state that Samsung blows the 2004 Panasonci out of the water. Maybe a preference in whether you prefer the more DNR look of the Samsung.
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post #5 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pdogg93 View Post
Yikes. I just ordered a 64" version to replace my pro 101fd (same as KPR 500m). I play lots of ps3 and ps4 on my Kuro, so I was planning on making the Samsung my main gaming/movie display. Doesn't sound too promising.

so many mixed reviews on this tv...
I don't think he was making any complaints about the Samsung, just pointing out that it has a higher black level than the Kuro. Which is basically true for every TV out there except the VT and ZT60's. If you never owned a Kuro, you'd probably be thrilled with an 8500.
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post #6 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
I don't know if I buy into all the praise of the 8500. Interesting that you noted the dimness of the plasmas since they went to 1080p, because I bought my 50" Panasonic TH-50PHD7uy (1366 x 768 resolution) in 2004, and it is not dim at all nor is it LCD bright....it is just right. I checked out the 64" 8500 at Best Buy last night, and I was impressed by the large size, and I vacillated on the picture quality. It just seems to be more of a glossy, clean look than compared to a more matte appearance of my Panasonic TH-50PHD7uy. I was watching the 8500 in the movie mode. Initial impression is that I still prefer the video quality of my set, but probably difficult to truly assess unless properly calibrated and in your home. However, I never calibrated my Panasonic, the black levels are great, and it was THE broadcast monitor for many years.

Maybe the picture quality of the Samsung was affected by the split of the Blu-Ray signal to mulitple televisons? Perhaps with the KURO you are noticing the same differences I see between the Panasonic and the Samsung.

I question forum members who state that Samsung blows the 2004 Panasonci out of the water. Maybe a preference in whether you prefer the more DNR look of the Samsung.
I don't think the Samung has a "DNR look" once you turn all the DNR features off. They're on by default, which could have been what you saw.

When I said that the Kuro was noisy, I don't mean the type of noise that can be removed by DNR (like film grain, ISO noise, compression artifacts) -- I mean that the panel itself created a noisy image. In fact, if you paused a movie the noise would continue to dance around.

I don't need LCD-style peak brightness. What I do like is that the Samsung offers something approaching the consistency of LCD brightness.

And I would definitely say that the 8500 blows your 2004 Panasonic out of the water. We have a 2004 Panasonic pro monitor in the conference room down the hall, and occasionally we watch events on it. For it's age the picture is fantastic, and I'd probably take it over most LCDs. However, the blacks do not approach the 8500, much less the Kuro, and the low resolution can be distracting.
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post #7 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pdogg93 View Post
Yikes. I just ordered a 64" version to replace my pro 101fd (same as KPR 500m). I play lots of ps3 and ps4 on my Kuro, so I was planning on making the Samsung my main gaming/movie display. Doesn't sound too promising.

so many mixed reviews on this tv...
My overall impressions of the Samsung are very positive. I like it better than the 500m.
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Yea, a 500M is a far cry from a 2004 Panasonic plasma, lol. Also, one reason the latter may be brighter than most modern plasmas is because it was built in an era before more stringent energy regulations were adopted and employed. Samsung bucked a trend big time. I don't care for that level of brightness but good on them for bucking the trends.
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post #9 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 01:36 PM
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That's not suprising for the f8500. In fact it's impressive given it was not calibrated vs a calibrated 500m
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post #10 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
I don't think the Samung has a "DNR look" once you turn all the DNR features off. They're on by default, which could have been what you saw.

When I said that the Kuro was noisy, I don't mean the type of noise that can be removed by DNR (like film grain, ISO noise, compression artifacts) -- I mean that the panel itself created a noisy image. In fact, if you paused a movie the noise would continue to dance around.

I don't need LCD-style peak brightness. What I do like is that the Samsung offers something approaching the consistency of LCD brightness.

And I would definitely say that the 8500 blows your 2004 Panasonic out of the water. We have a 2004 Panasonic pro monitor in the conference room down the hall, and occasionally we watch events on it. For it's age the picture is fantastic, and I'd probably take it over most LCDs. However, the blacks do not approach the 8500, much less the Kuro, and the low resolution can be distracting.
Ok, enough people have said that that it must be true. Thanks for info on the DNR. Probably still get the 8500, and based on happiness of the picture use it as main plasma or place it in master bedroom. One set I did really like was the Sony 4K ultra showing concert video and the Word Cup; now just if broadcast TV was in 4K! (I have heard Netflix broadcasts "House of Cards" and "Orange is the New Black" in 4k.)
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post #11 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, enough people have said that that it must be true. Thanks for info on the DNR. Probably still get the 8500, and based on happiness of the picture use it as main plasma or place it in master bedroom. One set I did really like was the Sony 4K ultra showing concert video and the Word Cup; now just if broadcast TV was in 4K! (I have heard Netflix broadcasts "House of Cards" and "Orange is the New Black" in 4k.)
I'm skeptical of 4K. Other than blu ray, none of the other video sources (TV, streaming, etc) even have adequate bitrates to support high quality 1080p. Quadrupling the size of the video is only going to make things worse.
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post #12 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 02:28 PM
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I have to disagree with nearly all points there.

The KRPM is the cleanest plasma i have seen yet (from any distance) - except for one Panasonic pro plasma a few years back and we are talking 1 or 2 % of a difference. That is dithering and PWM.

If you could see noise across a room on a KRP then something is seriously wrong with its calibration if talking about dithering - or its power supply - if talking video noise.

On standard power mode i haven't seen the KRPM dim (not once) whilst viewing normal content. Of course yes it has on power save 1 and 2 - but that's it's job on these modes

The rest is viable for test patterns.

And CNET said the only plasmas they have ever tested able to hold brightness on a white screen are the Pioneer Kuro and of course first the F8500.

That's a Pioneer Kuro TV mind you - not the monitors which they never tested - which have an even higher ABL limit.

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post #13 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I have to disagree with nearly all points there.

The KRPM is the cleanest plasma i have seen yet (from any distance) - except for one Panasonic pro plasma a few years back and we are talking 1 or 2 % of a difference. That is dithering and PWM.

If you could see noise across a room on a KRP then something is seriously wrong with its calibration if talking about dithering - or its power supply - if talking video noise.

On standard power mode i haven't seen the KRPM dim (not once) whilst viewing normal content. Of course yes it has on power save 1 and 2 - but that's it's job on these modes

The rest is viable for test patterns.

And CNET said the only plasmas they have ever tested able to hold brightness on a white screen are the Pioneer Kuro and of course first the F8500.

That's a Pioneer Kuro TV mind you - not the monitors which they never tested - which have an even higher ABL limit.
The Kuro cannot maintain its peak brightness on a full-white screen. Not even close. The dimming was quite noticeable in lots of normal content. Not horrible, most of the time, but very visible. I don't even think my old 720p Kuro Elite could do that, and it was a light cannon.

Here are measurements for the PRO-101FD, which I think used essentially the same panel as the 500m: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...r-measurements. That's 17.5ftl on a full white screen vs. about 40ftl on a window pattern. That's a little more than 40% of peak brightness.

From what I've read, the Samsung can hit almost 25ftl on a full white field. That's not full brightness either but it's much more than any 1080p plasma I've ever seen.

Kuros have noise that is extremely noticeable to me. I've owned two, both had it. I've seen it on every Kuro I've seen at the store (back when they had them in stores). It's not a power saving setting or a poor calibration, it's just part of how they create an image. If you can't see it, consider yourself lucky.

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post #14 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
The Kuro cannot maintain its peak brightness on a full-white screen. Not even close. The dimming was quite noticeable in lots of normal content. Not horrible, most of the time, but very visible. I don't even think my old 720p Kuro Elite could do that, and it was a light cannon.

Here are measurements for the PRO-101FD, which I think used essentially the same panel as the 500m: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...r-measurements. That's 17.5ftl on a full white screen vs. about 40ftl on a window pattern. That's a little more than 40% of peak brightness.

From what I've read, the Samsung can hit almost 25ftl on a full white field. That's not full brightness either but it's much more than any 1080p plasma I've ever seen.

Kuros have noise that is extremely noticeable to me. I've owned two, both had it. I've seen it on every Kuro I've seen at the store (back when they had them in stores). It's not a power saving setting or a poor calibration, it's just part of how they create an image. If you can't see it, consider yourself lucky.
Well you created a VS thread so expect a difference of opinion.

I don't have to consider myself lucky. On the shootout of the ZT, 8500 and the 500M it was explained by an expert that you shouldn't see "dither" further than two feet on any of the displays.

On standard power mode with drive mode 1 or 3 with 20/10 vision i have to be a matter of a couple of inches to see any "noise". The power save modes bring in a tiny amount of PWM noise. PSM2 being the worst visible at 3FT. I have owned four Kuro's at different times this 500M the last. I also know the difference between PWM, dithering and compression artefacts, which some do not. If a KURO is given a sterile clean image to display and it's not faulty in any way then that is exactly what it displays. If it's not it doesn't. No unnecessary processing in the background.

Like i said i haven't noticed any dimming on any normal content - only on power save modes.
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post #15 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well you created a VS thread so expect a difference of opinion.

I don't have to consider myself lucky. On the shootout of the ZT, 8500 and the 500M it was explained by an expert that you shouldn't see "dither" further than two feet on any of the displays.

On standard power mode with drive mode 1 or 3 with 20/10 vision i have to be a matter of a couple of inches to see any "noise". The power save modes bring in a tiny amount of PWM noise. PSM2 being the worst visible at 3FT. I have owned four Kuro's at different times this 500M the last. I also know the difference between PWM, dithering and compression artefacts, which some do not. If a KURO is given a sterile clean image to display and it's not faulty in any way then that is exactly what it displays. If it's not it doesn't. No unnecessary processing in the background.

Like i said i haven't noticed any dimming on any normal content - only on power save modes.
It dims on normal content - bright outdoor scenes (especially in 16:9 content), Apple commercials, etc. I'm sure the Samsung does too, but it's a lot less.

It's dithering or PWM noise, not compression artifacts or noise in the video content itself. It will show up when fed a pristine still image with no movement. In fact, it's even visible in the TV's on screen menus (mostly the colors, whites are pretty clean). It was the same on my old Kuro, and the same with every one I've seen. It's not a calibration issue - D-Nice calibrated it, and it was just as noisy before the calibration as after. You can't see it and you really are lucky.
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post #16 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:23 PM
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Well tbh perhaps you have been unlucky. Because of all the people i have spoken to have never described to the extent of what you are describing - especially not the Kuro monitors.

And if im honest all i saw when i saw an F8500 - apart from being too bright imo.

Was a helluva lot of dithering.
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post #17 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:35 PM
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Black levels aside - there are people around who reckon the image on an 8G Kuro is better than the F8500, people who own both. But of course that is their opinion. Just recently mentioned on the 8G owners.
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post #18 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Black levels aside - there are people around who reckon the image on an 8G Kuro is better than the F8500, people who own both. But of course that is their opinion. Just recently mentioned on the 8G owners.
I can see that. Black levels between the 8G Kuros and the 8500 seem similar to me, though it has been about 5 years since I owned an 8G. The 8500 can probably be calibrated to be significantly more accurate than an 8G Kuro, color wise.

To me, the 8G Kuros were either too dim (1080p models) or had an intolerably noisy picture (720p models). But people who prioritize different aspects of picture quality could prefer them.
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And Chris...

The 101 monitor is classed as a high grade consumer class unit. It has a different (lower) ABL limit to the KRPM - which is an industrial grade plasma.
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And Chris...

The 101 monitor is classed as a high grade consumer class unit. It has a different (lower) ABL limit to the KRPM - which is an industrial grade plasma.
I'll have to pull out my 500m's calibration report, but I don't think it got too much brighter than the 101 did in that review. Maybe 2-3 ftl more on a window pattern.
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post #21 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 03:57 PM
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I never denied that it didn't go brighter.

But in a sunny room (light coming through window behind panel) watching self calibrated Movie mode at contrast 36 (which is slightly brighter than Pure mode at 40 for daytime) - it looks very naturally bright to me.

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post #22 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I never denied that it didn't go brighter.

But in a sunny room (light coming through window behind panel) watching movie mode at contrast 36 (which is slightly brighter than Pure mode at 40 for daytime) - it looks very naturally bright to me.
I usually used ISF Day on my 500m, which peaked in the low 40s. 35-40ftl is great. The problem is that the Kuro couldn't maintain that on bright content. Even 30ftl would probably be just fine, if it was always 30ftl.
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post #23 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
I usually used ISF Day on my 500m, which peaked in the low 40s. 35-40ftl is great. The problem is that the Kuro couldn't maintain that on bright content. Even 30ftl would probably be just fine, if it was always 30ftl.
I read plenty reports the 500's can go comfortably into the mid 50's. Don't know if that's ABL tweaks though to go with the brighter ISF day mode though - which would make sense - or just it's max at default.

Last edited by Stu03; 07-11-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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post #24 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post
I read plenty reports the 500's can go comfortably into the mid 50's. Don't know if that's ABL tweaks though to go with the brighter ISF day mode though - which would make sense - or just it's max at default.
When Chad B calibrated my 101fd he had day mode at 52ftl. He could have gone up to 60. I chose not to have it that high.
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post #25 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonyboy View Post
When Chad B calibrated my 101fd he had day mode at 52ftl. He could have gone up to 60. I chose not to have it that high.
Voila !

I always remembered your post/posts (what was written by you) and have brought that up myself in the past on various threads on different occasions with your 101 - but i could never remember who said it and didn't want to mention a user name in case i got it wrong if i did lol

I'll remember now
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post #26 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
I can see that. Black levels between the 8G Kuros and the 8500 seem similar to me, though it has been about 5 years since I owned an 8G. The 8500 can probably be calibrated to be significantly more accurate than an 8G Kuro, color wise.

To me, the 8G Kuros were either too dim (1080p models) or had an intolerably noisy picture (720p models). But people who prioritize different aspects of picture quality could prefer them.
I have a 4280 8g ( 720P ) a little noisy within 3 feet. a 5010 8g great not really any issues there. a pro-111 9g, I dont get a noisy picture, krp-600m not really. Now I have had a few panasonics in the house, different story there. Not saying there is no noise period, but very littleif any but will say this the content can make a difference and I have seen that, and even on the old 4280 720p after you sit back past the 3 foot mark there is nothing I notice like being up real close. So not sure why you see such noise even when you farther back then 2 feet. Though I have heard a few people say that the kuro's they have seen have been noisy so maybe there are some out there but I dont think its the norm.

Ive got some stuff
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post #27 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 04:47 PM
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Enjoy your f8500. It's among the very best plasmas ever made. None are perfect and each has unique strengths.
Are you gonna get it calibrated?
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post #28 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
I have a 4280 8g ( 720P ) a little noisy within 3 feet. a 5010 8g great not really any issues there. a pro-111 9g, I dont get a noisy picture, krp-600m not really. Now I have had a few panasonics in the house, different story there. Not saying there is no noise period, but very littleif any but will say this the content can make a difference and I have seen that, and even on the old 4280 720p after you sit back past the 3 foot mark there is nothing I notice like being up real close. So not sure why you see such noise even when you farther back then 2 feet. Though I have heard a few people say that the kuro's they have seen have been noisy so maybe there are some out there but I dont think its the norm.
Definitely believe there is some inconsistencies with the power supplies tbh with Kuro's. One calibrator commented a few years ago on AVF that some definitely have noisy (faulty) power supplies.

Yes the Panasonics can go clean - but i have also witnessed quite a few in real time - and plenty from people on Google that have quite terrible dithering.

And latterly in the last few generations - noisy blacks as well. But that's more to do with power restrictions than anything else i think.
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post #29 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I checked my calibration reports, and my 500m was set to 50ftl in ISF Day. I must have confused ISF Day and ISF Night.

I'm pretty sure the noise is not a power supply issue, as I can switch to PC mode and it pretty much disappears. The picture is also horrible in PC mode, but it's very clean. I think the dithering is required to get the color and grayscale accurate, rather than the panel's native color. Same thing happened with my 8G Kuro, though PC mode was a little less offensive on that one.
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post #30 of 87 Old 07-11-2014, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post
Enjoy your f8500. It's among the very best plasmas ever made. None are perfect and each has unique strengths.
Are you gonna get it calibrated?
I haven't decided yet. I'm pretty happy with the picture as is. I'm sure I'll tinker, and I have barely changed any of the settings, other than putting it in movie mode, during on dark room black optimizer, and turning off all the usual DNR/motion smoothing junk.
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