60fps gaming on Plasma tv help! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
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60fps gaming on Plasma tv help!

Im not really sure what to call it but while playing wolfenstein the new order on ps4 (which is 60fps) on my samsung pn51f5300 plasma tv I was expecting it to be absolutely buttery smooth but I have noticed while panning the camera its not.Its by no means bad. Its smooth. Dont get me wrong it looks great! Im not sure on what to call it. Maybe its dithering? Phosphor lag? I have no idea what to call it. Its not green like ive read. Its like if my character is looking at a lamp and I move the camera to the right left up or down it doesnt stay exactly detailed. Is this normal? Or if there is writing on the wall and I pan the camera( not super fast or slow about medium) I can still perfectly read it but its not as detail as if I wasnt moving the camera. Its not blur. I dont think. What is this called? Sorry if I sound dumb I have no idea how to word it. Can someone explain. I dont think its judder like I get from NFS Rivals which is 30fps. Its more of a pixel lagish type of thing. Thanks guys in advanced.
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post #2 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 12:20 PM
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Probably not phosphor lag. The phosphors appear to be very low persistence on the Sammy F5300s, which may be why they seem to flicker a bit more than the Panasonics.

Dithering is a possibility though. Or it could be an effect of the subfield drive technology on plasma TVs. Are there any motion-related options (ie blur settings, etc.) you can tinker with on the PS4?

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post #3 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Plasma5300 View Post
Im not really sure what to call it but while playing wolfenstein the new order on ps4 (which is 60fps) on my samsung pn51f5300 plasma tv I was expecting it to be absolutely buttery smooth but I have noticed while panning the camera its not.Its by no means bad. Its smooth. Dont get me wrong it looks great! Im not sure on what to call it. Maybe its dithering? Phosphor lag? I have no idea what to call it. Its not green like ive read. Its like if my character is looking at a lamp and I move the camera to the right left up or down it doesnt stay exactly detailed. Is this normal? Or if there is writing on the wall and I pan the camera( not super fast or slow about medium) I can still perfectly read it but its not as detail as if I wasnt moving the camera. Its not blur. I dont think. What is this called? Sorry if I sound dumb I have no idea how to word it. Can someone explain. I dont think its judder like I get from NFS Rivals which is 30fps. Its more of a pixel lagish type of thing. Thanks guys in advanced.
Thats just how plasmas move objects at 60fps. As mentioned above it may be related to the 600hz subfield refresh. Its normal. I noticed it when I first got my F4500 on 60fps games like Mario Galaxy. You get used to it. Its actually less pronounced on the 5300. Make sure you are in Game mode as it gives you a more pure representation of what the game system is sending the screen.

Just to make sure, plug a PC into it, pull up a window, and drag it around the screen. Watch the part on it that has text. You should see a similar "dithering" effect. LCDs have blur, plasmas have dithering, CRTs have perfect motion but screen uniformity issues and obtrusive size.
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post #4 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats just how plasmas move objects at 60fps. Its normal. I noticed it when I first got my F4500 on 60fps games like Mario Galaxy. You get used to it. Its actually less pronounced on the 5300.

Just to make sure, plug a PC into it, pull up a window, and drag it around the screen. Watch the part on it that has text. You should see a similar "dithering" effect. LCDs have blur, plasmas have dithering, CRTs have perfect motion but screen uniformity issues and obtrusive size.
So its Dithering? Ok so its normal. Yea its not by any means horrible. I actually have to look for it. Thanks for the response!
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post #5 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 08:08 PM
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Cabling might be another possibility.

I've never used the more expensive HDMI cables myself, and don't know whether to believe the hype on them. But perhaps it might make some difference on 60fps 1080p content. You could try it, and then return it if it makes no difference. Just make sure the store will accept returns on such things.

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post #6 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
CRTs have perfect motion...
Not quite perfect. The phosphor lag is actually fairly bad on my Sony CRT, esp. in the progressive display modes. It's tolerable as long as I keep the TV in interlaced 1080i mode though.

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post #7 of 27 Old 07-13-2014, 10:23 PM
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to me is sounds like motion resolution. most displays have lower resolution when screen pans. I know with my f8500, it's pretty hard to read text that is moving on it. same could be said of basically any tv I currently own. I can't remember what the crt was like, but I never had one that was 1080p, so it's kind of tough to compare directly anyway.
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post #8 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 04:00 AM
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Not quite perfect. The phosphor lag is actually fairly bad on my Sony CRT, esp. in the progressive display modes. It's tolerable as long as I keep the TV in interlaced 1080i mode though.
lol the 19" 4:3 CRT Im reading this on does. No lag at all, it looks great. I wish my plasmas had as good motion as this thing!
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Cabling might be another possibility.

I've never used the more expensive HDMI cables myself, and don't know whether to believe the hype on them. But perhaps it might make some difference on 60fps 1080p content. You could try it, and then return it if it makes no difference. Just make sure the store will accept returns on such things.
Im using a 75 dollar Monster ISF cable so I dont think hdmi cable is it. Its most likely the dithering. I have to really look for it. I think my problem was that I was expecting way too much!
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post #10 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 09:35 PM
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^^ ouch
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post #11 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 10:14 PM
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Im using a 75 dollar Monster ISF cable so I dont think hdmi cable is it.
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^^ ouch
Ouch is right! Think we can cross cabling off the list.

Only other thought I had was to maybe try a different picture mode, to see if that makes any difference. The picture processing might be a little different in Movie mode than in Game mode, for example. The add'l processing in Movie mode might increase lag though.

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post #12 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ ouch
I purchased the cable for 12 dollars while it was on sale on amazon. 9 foot high quality cable for 12 bucks isnt so bad 😉 Price has since went back up to a price I would never pay which is reaching the 70 dollar mark 😞
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post #13 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 10:44 PM
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Some useful info here re standard vs. high speed HDMI cables, and different lengths...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Cables

According to that link, a 9 foot high-speed (Category 2) cable should be able to easily handle 1080p at 60 Hz.

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post #14 of 27 Old 07-15-2014, 03:59 AM
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Im using $2 cables from Ebay, 6' long. I bought 8 of them, havent had a single issue with any Ive used. 1080p/60 all day long from my PC. I've learned from personal experience that quality ANALOG cables can make a big difference. Zero difference in digital-- it either works or it doesnt. If its sturdy and fits snuggly into the port, your gold.

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Im using a 75 dollar Monster ISF cable so I dont think hdmi cable is it. Its most likely the dithering. I have to really look for it. I think my problem was that I was expecting way too much!
Its dithering, its normal. If youve never had a plasma before, you would notice it. In a few days/weeks of gaming on it, itll be a non issue, you'll get used to it.
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post #16 of 27 Old 07-15-2014, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Its dithering, its normal. If youve never had a plasma before, you would notice it. In a few days/weeks of gaming on it, itll be a non issue, you'll get used to it.
Yes this is my first plasma. I was so used to the motion blur on lcd. I dont even notice the dithering anymore . I love gaming on a plasma 60fps!
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post #17 of 27 Old 07-15-2014, 09:51 PM
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Its dithering, its normal. If youve never had a plasma before, you would notice it. In a few days/weeks of gaming on it, itll be a non issue, you'll get used to it.
Sure you're right.

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Im using $2 cables from Ebay, 6' long. I bought 8 of them, havent had a single issue with any Ive used. 1080p/60 all day long from my PC. I've learned from personal experience that quality ANALOG cables can make a big difference. Zero difference in digital-- it either works or it doesnt. If its sturdy and fits snuggly into the port, your gold.
I wonder about that. There were times when I briefly noticed random black dots on some test patterns on the F5300. And I wonder if those could be related to my cheap HDMI cable, or just general plasma funkiness.

It sounds like some other folks have noticed similar issues on their Samsung plasma TVs as well...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasma-flat-panel-displays/1383782-samsung-pn50b550-black-dots-inside-solid-colors.html

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post #18 of 27 Old 07-15-2014, 10:19 PM
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to me is sounds like motion resolution. most displays have lower resolution when screen pans. I know with my f8500, it's pretty hard to read text that is moving on it. same could be said of basically any tv I currently own. I can't remember what the crt was like, but I never had one that was 1080p, so it's kind of tough to compare directly anyway.
We could be talking about the same things here. The dithering on these TVs appears to be both spatial and temporal, so it may effect the clarity and resolution of the display's motion to a degree. IMO though, the Sammy F5300 has better motion resolution/clarity than the comparable-priced Panasonic S60.

CRTs don't generally need any dithering btw, because a) they're analog, and b) they have a natural gamma close to 2.4. Plasma TVs have a more linear response. So to emulate 2.4 gamma, they either need alot more bits, or dithering,... or both.

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post #19 of 27 Old 07-16-2014, 11:17 AM
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We could be talking about the same things here. The dithering on these TVs appears to be both spatial and temporal, so it may effect the clarity and resolution of the display's motion to a degree. IMO though, the Sammy F5300 has better motion resolution/clarity than the comparable-priced Panasonic S60.

CRTs don't generally need any dithering btw, because a) they're analog, and b) they have a natural gamma close to 2.4. Plasma TVs have a more linear response. So to emulate 2.4 gamma, they either need alot more bits, or dithering,... or both.
I have no idea what the cause is, just the effect. like if you look at the scrolling text patterns on the avs disc. they look crystal clear(obviously) when static. but as soon as they start to move, even the 300-400p resolution text looks kinda blurry. the 800-1080p stuff is basically unreadable.


on the note of crt's vs plasma. I do find it kind of interesting that we are trying so hard to make our current digital TV's behave like crt's. seems like the goal shouldn't be to replicate a technology that was trying to replicate real life. if we do that, we'll never surpass it. but instead we should have the same goal crt's had, and try to replicate real life. sounds like the way we look at gamma might be a great place to start, but I don't really understand the ins and outs of display tech. I just try to figure out how to use them correctly
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-16-2014, 12:36 PM
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on the note of crt's vs plasma. I do find it kind of interesting that we are trying so hard to make our current digital TV's behave like crt's. seems like the goal shouldn't be to replicate a technology that was trying to replicate real life. if we do that, we'll never surpass it. but instead we should have the same goal crt's had, and try to replicate real life. sounds like the way we look at gamma might be a great place to start, but I don't really understand the ins and outs of display tech. I just try to figure out how to use them correctly
Agree with your general sentiments. Like any tech, CRTs have (or had) their strong and weak points as displays. I am somewhat impressed though by how CRT-like some plasma TVs can be. I've been spending a lot of time comparing/contrasting the different Samsung plasma models at BB lately, and I'm struck by how smooth and "tube-like" some of these displays look, particularly the 1080p 51F5300.

The images look so good on these displays though that even relativity minor "flaws" such as dithering, uniformity, ABL, line bleed, IR, etc. tend to stand out more, whereas in the old days, you just accepted those sort of things as the "tube-look", without giving em a second thought. There's a certain irony in that.

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post #21 of 27 Old 07-16-2014, 03:09 PM
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Sure you're right.



I wonder about that. There were times when I briefly noticed random black dots on some test patterns on the F5300. And I wonder if those could be related to my cheap HDMI cable, or just general plasma funkiness.

It sounds like some other folks have noticed similar issues on their Samsung plasma TVs as well...

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasma-flat-panel-displays/1383782-samsung-pn50b550-black-dots-inside-solid-colors.html
There may be an issue with the panel, or it could be a defective cable or one not making a good connection on all pins. Since getting my 5300 and testing alongside my 4500 Ive plugged and unplugged HDMI cables in each set 10's if not 100s of times. ONE time I moved a cable on my OTA DVR from the 5300 to the 4500 and the 4500 came up with BRIGHT red "dots" all over the picture. I panicked, thinking I blew out my HDMI port or something, but I unplugged and plugged back in and it was fine.

HDMI is a digital signal-- its either there or not there-- your cable is either good or bad. Its possible my red dot issue was related to a not fully seated HDMI cable, but it was a blatant problem. Im not familiar with HDMI pinout, but its possible there are a couple of pins that may not completely kill the signal, but rather make a visual issue as I experienced if their connection is not made.

In general though, there is absolutely nothing that a $50 Monster HDMI cable will do for image quality that a $2 Ebay special will do, provided it works to begin with. Its the nature of digital signals. Analog signals however, such as composite, Svideo, and component, can be greatly affected by cable quality and shielding.
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post #22 of 27 Old 07-16-2014, 09:29 PM
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there does seem to be SOME benefit to a high quality digital cable. I totally used to believe in the on/off theory, either it worked 100% or 0%. but it does seem as though there's some error correction that allows for a few missing bits here or there, and with longer lengths I have noticed not so much a change in picture quality, but in reliability. some cables have a host of handshake issues, or drop connections occasionally, while others don't. in either case, I do have some 'cheaper' cables that work sometimes, and sometimes not so much, and other times not at all. it seems to be affective by the content being played. ie, the desktop of my computer, totally fine. but playing an HD video, won't work at all. something in the middle like viewing webpages, or video that's not fullscreen will kind of work, but drops the connection frequently.


now that all being said, I'm not saying a 75dollar cable is necessary. more that a $6-$10 cable from monoprice is worth buying instead of a $2-$3 cable from china.
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there does seem to be SOME benefit to a high quality digital cable. I totally used to believe in the on/off theory, either it worked 100% or 0%. but it does seem as though there's some error correction that allows for a few missing bits here or there, and with longer lengths I have noticed not so much a change in picture quality, but in reliability. some cables have a host of handshake issues, or drop connections occasionally, while others don't. in either case, I do have some 'cheaper' cables that work sometimes, and sometimes not so much, and other times not at all. it seems to be affective by the content being played. ie, the desktop of my computer, totally fine. but playing an HD video, won't work at all. something in the middle like viewing webpages, or video that's not fullscreen will kind of work, but drops the connection frequently.


now that all being said, I'm not saying a 75dollar cable is necessary. more that a $6-$10 cable from monoprice is worth buying instead of a $2-$3 cable from china.
As far as IQ, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm extremely anal about my TVs image, especially in regards to PC use, and gaming/retro gaming-- where its much easier to see the slightest shimmer or discoloration because of the static screens and large patches of single colors, and to date I havent noticed a single issue with these cables, which seem to be well constructed despite their price. In contrast, I went rounds and rounds troubleshooting component cables and switches due to the IQ issues the cheaper ones caused.

I havent played around with long HDMI cables, but the 6' ones I use are basically perfect. I would say that build quality, not image quality (unless your cable is broken) is the only thing you may get by paying more for these cables. That said though, I was so impressed with the build quality from the first batch I got from Ebay a few months ago I just bought another set from the same seller. They have been rock solid.
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OP>I"m considering this set but am concerned about the reports of high input lag for gaming even on Game Mode.

Any issues that you've experienced? Primary concerned for FPS type games.

New - Samsung 51F5300B / Old - Hitachi 42HDS69 w/ firmware v120
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OP>I"m considering this set but am concerned about the reports of high input lag for gaming even on Game Mode.

Any issues that you've experienced? Primary concerned for FPS type games.
Take a look at this thread here for my tests.

30 to 50 ms is not "high" lag. Its not noticable unless you have a CRT right beside the set, even then, you can really only tell when the screen goes from dark to light. Its actually a great gaming set.
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post #26 of 27 Old 07-18-2014, 08:13 AM
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Take a look at this thread here for my tests.

30 to 50 ms is not "high" lag. Its not noticable unless you have a CRT right beside the set, even then, you can really only tell when the screen goes from dark to light. Its actually a great gaming set.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I'd be good with 30-50 ms. Some of the other reviews were reporting 70+ though which scared me off. I already play on an old plasma but I don't even know what, if any, input lag I already deal with.

New - Samsung 51F5300B / Old - Hitachi 42HDS69 w/ firmware v120
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post #27 of 27 Old 07-18-2014, 10:21 AM
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As far as IQ, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm extremely anal about my TVs image, especially in regards to PC use, and gaming/retro gaming-- where its much easier to see the slightest shimmer or discoloration because of the static screens and large patches of single colors, and to date I havent noticed a single issue with these cables, which seem to be well constructed despite their price. In contrast, I went rounds and rounds troubleshooting component cables and switches due to the IQ issues the cheaper ones caused.

I havent played around with long HDMI cables, but the 6' ones I use are basically perfect. I would say that build quality, not image quality (unless your cable is broken) is the only thing you may get by paying more for these cables. That said though, I was so impressed with the build quality from the first batch I got from Ebay a few months ago I just bought another set from the same seller. They have been rock solid.
you can disagree if you want to, but I said "I have noticed, not so much a change in picture quality, but in reliability." so please understand that I have NOT noticed an inferior picture, just that sometimes it didn't work.
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