With Plasma fading away, where to next? - AVS Forum
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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With Plasma fading away, where to next?

I own a Panasonic 58PZ700u which has been and still is a terrific set.

That being said, when it comes time for replacement in a few years - what do the experts here at AVS think will be choice to match the quality of plasma?

Will OLED be viable?

I shudder to think we will only have LED sets to work with from here on out.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:05 PM
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oled better be. only other option would be projector for the main theater room, and the cheapest no-name lcd I can find for the rooms I don't care about.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:45 PM
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Yes, we are all hoping for the viability and success of OLED, which has the potential to be even better than plasma in some respects.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:46 PM
 
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Some? Pretty much all...I guess the big question mark is motion, which will be answered shortly.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:54 PM
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Some? Pretty much all...I guess the big question mark is motion, which will be answered shortly.

I agree, to early to give and answer, stay tuned!
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:10 AM
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Yes, we are all hoping for the viability and success of OLED, which has the potential to be even better than plasma in some respects.
I prefer plasma, and do not care for LCD/LED. But I saw an LG OLED at HHG and it looked very good to me. Good blacks and no side angle viewing fade. So this seems to be a good replacement for plasma, if the price comes down. Meanwhile, while I was in the store, I bought a spare 51F4500 plasma for $398 until that day comes.
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:12 AM
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Have any reviews come out for Panasonics new flagship? Didnt they claim that this years model will be comparable if not better than the ZT60?
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
I prefer plasma, and do not care for LCD/LED. But I saw an LG OLED at HHG and it looked very good to me. Good blacks and no side angle viewing fade. So this seems to be a good replacement for plasma, if the price comes down. Meanwhile, while I was in the store, I bought a spare 51F4500 plasma for $398 until that day comes.
Not just good black, PERFECT blacks. There is no back-lighting, each pixel can be turned off.
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Old 07-16-2014, 11:40 AM
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Have any reviews come out for Panasonics new flagship? Didnt they claim that this years model will be comparable if not better than the ZT60?
Marketing claims a lot of things.
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:25 PM
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Isn't LG the only company actively developing OLED right now?
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Old 07-16-2014, 07:53 PM
 
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Yes.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:40 PM
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Hmm, so next year LG will be the only one making plasma and OLED. I wish them luck.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:01 AM
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A scary thought, isn't it?

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Old 07-18-2014, 10:43 AM
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Mirasol/IMOD seems to be the only thing which could compete. OLED is a fancy form [of] LCD with a wide viewing angle. frame rate leaves much to be desired.

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Old 07-18-2014, 11:25 AM
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I will only be interested in OLED when pricing is more mainstream and motion resolution matches or exceeds Plasma.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Weboh View Post
Mirasol/IMOD seems to be the only thing which could compete. OLED is a fancy form LCD with a wide viewing angle. frame rate leaves much to be desired.
how is oled anything like lcd? is oled not emissive? that's a pretty huge difference imo. unless LCD gets FALD with a few billion zones(one per pixel)
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:36 AM
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how is oled anything like lcd? is oled not emissive? that's a pretty huge difference imo. unless LCD gets FALD with a few billion zones(one per pixel)
The OLED is a backlight (And is at a low resolution, even then-- if I am not mistaken. and I am there.) Sure, an OLED is emissive, but you can't use pulse width modulation on the organic LED. Quantum Dot is superior, and I do believe the press is stupid enough to have been taken by such chicanery. They don't understand what a response time is, and that OLED's response time of 100 microseconds is a flat out lie. If it weren't, the refresh rate would be better. I suspect we will still see a lot of slow 4K TVs and faster 2K OLED TVs and 2K Quantum Dot TVs.

I wish OLED was what they claim on paper, but it isn't even a plasma copy; it is a version of LCD with many color backlights.

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Old 07-18-2014, 01:23 PM
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The OLED is a backlight (And is at a low resolution, even then-- if I am not mistaken. and I am there.) Sure, an OLED is emissive, but you can't use pulse width modulation on the organic LED. Quantum Dot is superior, and I do believe the press is stupid enough to have been taken by such chicanery. They don't understand what a response time is, and that OLED's response time of 100 microseconds is a flat out lie. If it weren't, the refresh rate would be better. I suspect we will still see a lot of slow 4K TVs and faster 2K OLED TVs and 2K Quantum Dot TVs.

I wish OLED was what they claim on paper, but it isn't even a plasma copy; it is a version of LCD with many color backlights.
Oled > plasma other than motion resolution
Please explain how oleds have backlights
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:47 PM
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Oled > plasma other than motion resolution
Please explain how oleds have backlights
The organic Light-Emitting Diodes are the backlights.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:04 PM
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The organic Light-Emitting Diodes are the backlights.
Which is nothing like an LCD as each diode can turn on and off
It's not a backlight
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:06 PM
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Which is nothing like an LCD as each diode can turn on and off
It's not a backlight
It can't do Pulse-width modulation, and yes it is a kind of backlight.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:13 PM
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It can't do Pulse-width modulation, and yes it is a kind of backlight.
No, it's not a backlight.

Like plasma, OLED is an emissive panel technology, which means each pixel emits its own light. In a 50" 1080p OLED, there are 6 million OLED pixels which each emit light. In a 50" 1080p LED-LCD, there are around 50~200 LEDs arranged around the edge (edge-lit) or behind the panel (back-lit, sometimes full-array dimming capable.)

LED-LCD has a backlight and a transmissive layer which modulates the light level creating an image for each pixel on the LCD panel. Virtually identical to CCFL LCD in every way except it's a little brighter and has a wider colour gamut.

OLED can hit near infinite contrast ratio (in theory, the pixels can turn completely off, but I think most panels go down to "imperceptible" brightness for now.) OLED can also achieve brighter levels than plasma. OLED currently uses slightly less power than a calibrated plasma but with much brighter image. (More lumens/watt.) More power than equivalent LED-LCD TV.

Some future OLED panels may use PWM, but for now they are driven by analog control signals in a sample-and-hold setup, using a TFT array like an LCD panel which is wasteful of power. At 50% bright they dissipate 50% of input power as heat in each pixel. Problem is, OLEDs can't be refreshed too rapidly - panel technology needs improvement before they move to PWM which will improve panel lifespan & power consumption (and you won't see dithering like on a plasma, as the subfield rate will be considerably higher.) With that we might see OLED actually beating LED-LCD for efficiency.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:21 PM
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No, it's not a backlight.

Like plasma, OLED is an emissive panel technology, which means each pixel emits its own light. In a 50" 1080p OLED, there are 6 million OLED pixels which each emit light. In a 50" 1080p LED-LCD, there are around 50~200 LEDs arranged around the edge (edge-lit) or behind the panel (back-lit, sometimes full-array dimming capable.)

LED-LCD has a backlight and a transmissive layer which modulates the light level creating an image for each pixel on the LCD panel. Virtually identical to CCFL LCD in every way except it's a little brighter and has a wider colour gamut.

OLED can hit near infinite contrast ratio (in theory, the pixels can turn completely off, but I think most panels go down to "imperceptible" brightness for now.) OLED can also achieve brighter levels than plasma. OLED currently uses slightly less power than a calibrated plasma but with much brighter image. (More lumens/watt.) More power than equivalent LED-LCD TV.

Some future OLED panels may use PWM, but for now they are driven by analog control signals in a sample-and-hold setup, using a TFT array like an LCD panel which is wasteful of power. At 50% bright they dissipate 50% of input power as heat in each pixel. Problem is, OLEDs can't be refreshed too rapidly - panel technology needs improvement before they move to PWM which will improve panel lifespan & power consumption (and you won't see dithering like on a plasma, as the subfield rate will be considerably higher.) With that we might see OLED actually beating LED-LCD for efficiency.
Nothing but hype, and BS. PWM is analog signal modulation. The TFT array suggests LCD, but I am not suprised you didn't catch that; and you have yet to show any evidence that LEDs, let alone OLEDs, have better response times then variable plasma flourescent light-blubs. Anything at 240 hz burns out fast, when talking normal LEDs, and any organic LED will be more delicate.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:30 PM
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Nothing but hype, and BS.
trololololo
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:43 PM
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what is PWM and why should I care about it?


just because oled has some flaws currently, doesn't mean it's similar to lcd.


if oled is 'backlit' than everything other than front projection is backlight. I can only assume your definition of backlit is that light is emitted from behind the screen. my definition of backlit is that there is a light behind the grid of pixels, like with lcd. when oled has a 'backlight' for each pixel, I consider that emissive, similar to plasma.


it's really too bad the market went the way it did, I'd love to see the market break down this way:
-small TV's are all LED/LCD's. they are cheap, efficient, and good enough for anything you're likely to use a tv smaller than 50" for.
-large cheap TV's are plasm. it's hard to beat the PQ per dollar value of a current gen plasma in the 50-65" range.
-High end TV's are OLED. OLED can be reserved for ultra high-end TV's, this could be TV's larger than 65", it could also be UHD TV's, or just plain 'better' performance TV's in the 50" plus range.


that would be perfect for ME, anyway.
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Old 07-18-2014, 03:50 PM
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I'm hoping for SED to be resurrected.

Seriously, though, it sucks that never came to fruition.

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Old 07-18-2014, 05:25 PM
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Nothing but hype, and BS. PWM is analog signal modulation. The TFT array suggests LCD, but I am not suprised you didn't catch that; and you have yet to show any evidence that LEDs, let alone OLEDs, have better response times then variable plasma flourescent light-blubs. Anything at 240 hz burns out fast, when talking normal LEDs, and any organic LED will be more delicate.
WTF...? This is a science forum, not a forum for nonsense.

PWM is a digital technique which can simulate analog levels. The human eye very effectively integrates PWM into analog levels. But they are purely digital levels. The pixel is on or off.

It is actually incorrect to call a plasma display "PWM" dithered - it in fact uses sub-field multiplexing which gives it approx 6-bit real colour resolution (due to gamma correction.) Dithering is then used to fill in the extra 2 or 4 bits of colour data. If you turned off dithering somehow, you'd still get a picture with graduation levels, but you'd lose almost all the shadow and fine detail to the image.

The switching frequency of an LED or OLED does not affect the reliability in any significant fashion. That is, I would expect a 240Hz panel to have approximately the same lifespan as a 120Hz panel, given all other conditions being similar. The pixels aren't actually flashed at 240Hz unlike LED-LCD or plasma (600+Hz) -- they are just updated at that frequency. (Black frame insertion might change this but I'm not aware of any OLEDs doing this yet.)

I didn't say OLEDs had better response time. In fact, I said the complete opposite! Current OLED panels have high pixel capacitance. This prevents them being used at high frequencies, due to motion blur effects. This also prevents efficient implementation of PWM drive for the panel, so current panels use TFT with analog drive (which is what LCD uses.) The TFTs are ONLY USED TO SELECT PIXELS to address for light output. This is called AMOLED compare with AMLCD and PMOLED vs PMLCD. Passive addressing is used only for small OLED and LCD screens (under a few inches) and is completely unsuitable for video playback. Aside from TFTs, the technology is almost completely different to LCD tech. TFTs will still be used on PWM OLED, but the TFTs will become pure switches, which will reduce the panel heating.

(If a pixel is to be 50% bright, the TFT needs to "dump" 50% of the input power as heat, and provide 50% to the OLED subpixel. The OLED then dumps 95+% as heat as it is not very efficient. Eliminating analog drive will serve to increase OLED panel efficiency by 30~50%, content dependent. The technology is currently years away from this, so don't hold your breath. The most efficient content is fully on or off, the least efficient is a full stimulus grey pattern. Grey and white will use approximately the same amount of power on an OLED TV...)

Virtually every LED lighting system uses PWM in the few hundred Hz range with no lifespan implications. Perhaps if you bothered to look this up...

And the last time I checked, plasma does have motion issues. Phosphor lag, for example, and on many panels dithering reduces motion resolution. Still not going to stop me enjoying my Kuro, though. Plasma is a great technology, but it's going to be superseded eventually. I just hope OLED can fill the gap.

I'm following OLED closely. It has the potential to be the best display for the next 15-20 years. I can't honestly see any way another technology can beat it, aside from perhaps a direct neural interface or holograms or something completely different to current flat panel tech. It's efficient, bright, has incredible contrast ratio, and in a few more technology generations we'll probably see greater leaps in motion performance and energy efficiency. These will also act to improve the lifespan of the TV, less heat means longer panel lifetimes.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:01 PM
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I saw an LG OLED and can confirm black levels and brightness were off the chart. Hopefully the snafu of linking OLED with curved screens (which nobody wants!) hasn't detailed the train!
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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I saw an LG OLED and can confirm black levels and brightness were off the chart. Hopefully the snafu of linking OLED with curved screens (which nobody wants!) hasn't detailed the train!
Actually, I have a Sony 65S990A LCD curved screen and absolutely love it. Best of the 2013 model HD LCD sets. I even love it as much as my Panasonic 65ST50. In fact, in some ways I love it more, such as for viewing 3D using the passive 3D format.
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:40 AM
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WTF...? This is a science forum, not a forum for nonsense.

PWM is a digital technique which can simulate analog levels. The human eye very effectively integrates PWM into analog levels. But they are purely digital levels. The pixel is on or off.

It is actually incorrect to call a plasma display "PWM" dithered - it in fact uses sub-field multiplexing which gives it approx 6-bit real colour resolution (due to gamma correction.) Dithering is then used to fill in the extra 2 or 4 bits of colour data. If you turned off dithering somehow, you'd still get a picture with graduation levels, but you'd lose almost all the shadow and fine detail to the image.

The switching frequency of an LED or OLED does not affect the reliability in any significant fashion. That is, I would expect a 240Hz panel to have approximately the same lifespan as a 120Hz panel, given all other conditions being similar. The pixels aren't actually flashed at 240Hz unlike LED-LCD or plasma (600+Hz) -- they are just updated at that frequency. (Black frame insertion might change this but I'm not aware of any OLEDs doing this yet.)

I didn't say OLEDs had better response time. In fact, I said the complete opposite! Current OLED panels have high pixel capacitance. This prevents them being used at high frequencies, due to motion blur effects. This also prevents efficient implementation of PWM drive for the panel, so current panels use TFT with analog drive (which is what LCD uses.) The TFTs are ONLY USED TO SELECT PIXELS to address for light output. This is called AMOLED compare with AMLCD and PMOLED vs PMLCD. Passive addressing is used only for small OLED and LCD screens (under a few inches) and is completely unsuitable for video playback. Aside from TFTs, the technology is almost completely different to LCD tech. TFTs will still be used on PWM OLED, but the TFTs will become pure switches, which will reduce the panel heating.

(If a pixel is to be 50% bright, the TFT needs to "dump" 50% of the input power as heat, and provide 50% to the OLED subpixel. The OLED then dumps 95+% as heat as it is not very efficient. Eliminating analog drive will serve to increase OLED panel efficiency by 30~50%, content dependent. The technology is currently years away from this, so don't hold your breath. The most efficient content is fully on or off, the least efficient is a full stimulus grey pattern. Grey and white will use approximately the same amount of power on an OLED TV...)

Virtually every LED lighting system uses PWM in the few hundred Hz range with no lifespan implications. Perhaps if you bothered to look this up...

And the last time I checked, plasma does have motion issues. Phosphor lag, for example, and on many panels dithering reduces motion resolution. Still not going to stop me enjoying my Kuro, though. Plasma is a great technology, but it's going to be superseded eventually. I just hope OLED can fill the gap.

I'm following OLED closely. It has the potential to be the best display for the next 15-20 years. I can't honestly see any way another technology can beat it, aside from perhaps a direct neural interface or holograms or something completely different to current flat panel tech. It's efficient, bright, has incredible contrast ratio, and in a few more technology generations we'll probably see greater leaps in motion performance and energy efficiency. These will also act to improve the lifespan of the TV, less heat means longer panel lifetimes.
this is the first post that is not just talking out the @ss. good!
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