My thoughts on the 60" Pentile F5300 Samsung Plasma - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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My thoughts on the 60" Pentile F5300 Samsung Plasma

For years I had put off building my planned plasma bedroom theater setup. Having owned only LCD's prior and being into calibration I yearned for better black levels. I followed the panasonic plasma line closely and a VT65 was in my sights. Before I knew it they were no longer a viable option and my attention shifted to the remaining plasma manufacturers: Samsung and LG. The LG idea was quickly thrown out because of the well established poor black levels (for plasma). Samsung was the last viable option. With a sub $1000 budget, their mid grade F5300 plasma line fit the bill perfectly. With three options, 51 ($550), 60 ($800), or 64 inch ($1400), the obvious choice became clear. The 60 inch was perfect for me, size and price wise. When it went on sale at sears for $700 it became a no brainer.

I had two concerns going in: Pentile sub-pixel arrangement and magenta tint.

Magenta Tint:
Upon returning home from picking up the TV the fist thing I did was pop in the AVS 709 calibration disc and from the very first screen it was immediately apparent: My set had the magenta tint issue in the bottom 10%ish of the screen... Uhg!. After a basic contrast/brightness calibration I put on some content to see how noticeable it was during regular viewing. To my dissappointment it was extremely noticable on far more scenes than expected. Watching "Top Guns" on Amazon Instant Video - the landscape (dry clay like desert) would be pinkish at the bottom and fade to the correct color. Watching "John Adams" crossed arms at the bottom of the screen had the pink hue ... grey jackets had a pink hue had the bottom. Any time I watch 16:9 full screen content my eyes are constantly shifting to the bottom.

Unacceptable.

I was largely unsuccessful in getting it to show up in photos:



Pentile Pixel Arrangement:
Going in I had no idea how to visualize what this causes. This is my first plasma, which acts very much different than the LCD's I have experience with. Regardless, the additional green pixels and spacing was very apparent when looking up close. It was also very apparent with text, causing jaggies/etc (because of the additional pixel spacing?). What about when I back up to 6ft+ (the point at which many people say it is invisible)? It mostly goes away, but I feel like there is a lack of clarity (at all viewing distances) with things like text... and it's hard to imagine it's not translating over to everything (to some degree). It seems like, in some particular spots with some scenes, the pentile pixel arrangement causes some sort of artifact. It could be dithering and my lack of experience with plasma, but when I move close to the problem area the pentile arrangement is obvious in that area. Overall, my feeling on the pentile display, and I could be wrong, is that it probably makes some difference (at all viewing distances) but it is fairly minimal.

(photos taken with Nikon D50 DSLR, 60mm Macro Lens, and white balanced using a white balance card in RAW)



(closeup of the orange "I" in ITU-R, highlighting the Pentile pixel arrangement)



My previous sets, for reference, are a 2010 LG CCFL LCD and a 2014 E series 39" FALD Vizio.

What I like about the set:
-Excellent calibration controls (greyscale/cms)
-Colors are pretty accurate, stock
-Contrast is excellent
-Price! ($700 for a very nice 60" set)
-Plenty bright for my low light bedroom

What I don't like about the set:
-Disappointing blacks
-Poor quality control (magenta tint)

The "disappointing blacks" may seem confusing. And honestly, if I did not have my 2014 FALD Vizio, I probably would have been very happy with the blacks. Throughout recent months I've been telling my wife, as we watch movies on the CCFL LG LCD, "See how those blacks have a greyish blue sheen to them, horrible! When we get the plasma the blacks will be deep black and you wont have that sensation in dark scenes". I've found that, when watching in very low light, we still have that greyish/black sensation. That surprised me. My wife was also underwhelmed. I realize this is not a cream of the crop plasma but I was expecting better, as the F8500 is considered a reference panel and it's black levels are regularly described as just "slightly better" vs the F5300. I'm considering dragging over my 39 inch FALD Vizio LCD to put next to the plasma, in the dark, and A/B compare black levels. It could be an incorrect perception but I feel like the vizio may hold it's own, or win the comparison.

Luckily, after performing a more thorough 10pt greyscale and gamma calibration (trying out bt1884 currently, I think it may be crushing blacks too much for my liking) the magenta tint lightened up considerably. It's still there and noticeable on some scenes, you just have to really look for it now. Better but still unacceptable in my view.






Overall I love the set aside from the magenta tint issue. For that reason it will probably be going back to sears. As of right now my plan is to try a warehouse version (f5350) in hopes the magenta tint issue will not be present.

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post #2 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 08:39 AM
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Thanks for the report.

I bought my first plasma (60F5300) about two months ago.

My pink tint issue doesn't seem to be as bad as other peoples, and mine is not noticeable during programming and only barely noticeable on all white screens.

As far as the black levels go, I can only compare it to the 50" Sony DLP (at least 5 years old) that this set replaced.
The F5300 beats the hell out of my old set.

Even though the F5300 isn't perfect, for a $700 60" set, I'm (pardon the pun) tickled pink with my purchase!
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post #3 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 09:51 AM
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Seems like you should target calibrating at 75% and let the 100% exceed the Rec.709 triangle (if it's not possible to get both lined up at the same time).
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post #4 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRiff View Post
Thanks for the report.

I bought my first plasma (60F5300) about two months ago.

My pink tint issue doesn't seem to be as bad as other peoples, and mine is not noticeable during programming and only barely noticeable on all white screens.

As far as the black levels go, I can only compare it to the 50" Sony DLP (at least 5 years old) that this set replaced.
The F5300 beats the hell out of my old set.

Even though the F5300 isn't perfect, for a $700 60" set, I'm (pardon the pun) tickled pink with my purchase!
Tickled pink indeed!

Had I not had experience with a good performing (black levels) FALD LCD set, I probably would have been very happy with the plasma blacks as well. The general theme associated with plasma has always been "want the best black levels for the money? Go plasma!". Even if plasma technology had lived on, the tides may be turning in that regard... at least when comparing budget level panels.

It's possible I may still keep this set, as going the costco F5350 route is going to cost me an additional $105 ($55 membership + $50 price difference) and 2 hrs of driving.

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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Seems like you should target calibrating at 75% and let the 100% exceed the Rec.709 triangle (if it's not possible to get both lined up at the same time).
A relatively quick greyscale and gamma adjustment is all I have done thus far. No CMS work whatsoever yet.

When I first attempted a quick 2pt greyscale adjustment I thought my meter was whacked, as the readings were wildly varied. Is it possible the pentile pixel arrangement (and additional spacing) causes even more varied readings? I had read that some people have calibrated plasmas in "contact mode". I'm using an i1d2, which is designed for contact mode. To get consistent readings I pulled the meter off the screen (which is tilted slightly forward due to my current stand being too high) and let it hang parallel to the TV, an inch or two away. This stabilized the readings perfectly. I'm also still unsure whether I should be using APL or window patterns, seems to be conflicting viewpoints out there. Currently using windows...
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post #5 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 10:55 AM
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The F8500 does have better blacks, but it still will have a grey/black glow. Thats the nature of plasma. It will have a faint residual glow even when it goes to dark scenes. Some plasmas are better at handling it, but in a room completetly absent of light, you will still see the glow, even on the best of the best. Also, you are only going to get as black as the powered off screen. Most tv's, the bezel is blacker than the powered off screen. Even with my my 5020, in a dark room, after letting my eyes adjust, I can see the difference between the bezel and screen.
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post #6 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
The F8500 does have better blacks, but it still will have a grey/black glow. Thats the nature of plasma. It will have a faint residual glow even when it goes to dark scenes. Some plasmas are better at handling it, but in a room completetly absent of light, you will still see the glow, even on the best of the best. Also, you are only going to get as black as the powered off screen. Most tv's, the bezel is blacker than the powered off screen. Even with my my 5020, in a dark room, after letting my eyes adjust, I can see the difference between the bezel and screen.
Interesting.

A friend's st60 I calibrated for him (which did not have wildly varied readings in contact mode) seemed to have inky dark blacks without that greyish tone. Although there was a fair amount of ambient light coming in that probably skewed my perception. It's a much more expensive set as well, obviously.

When pro's do comparisons, like the upcoming VE shootout, I assume the controlled viewing environment includes some sort of bias lighting (and not done in pitch black dark)?

I'm used to running a bias light behind my TV, as it really helped with perceived black levels on my 42" CCFL LCD. I had assumed it would not be necessary with the plasma but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm currently using a cheapo home depot clamp fixture with a spiral florescent bulb, may be time to upgrade as it's a bit difficult to get soft/consistent light from that setup.
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post #7 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
Interesting.

A friend's st60 I calibrated for him (which did not have wildly varied readings in contact mode) seemed to have inky dark blacks without that greyish tone. Although there was a fair amount of ambient light coming in that probably skewed my perception. It's a much more expensive set as well, obviously.

When pro's do comparisons, like the upcoming VE shootout, I assume the controlled viewing environment includes some sort of bias lighting (and not done in pitch black dark)?

I'm used to running a bias light behind my TV, as it really helped with perceived black levels on my 42" CCFL LCD. I had assumed it would not be necessary with the plasma but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm currently using a cheapo home depot clamp fixture with a spiral florescent bulb, may be time to upgrade as it's a bit difficult to get soft/consistent light from that setup.
Most tv screens are black, or close to it, plus it's hard to get a room absent of light. Just the glow from the tv, would bounce light off the wall and back on to your screen. Unlike FALD, plasma can not completely turn off zones, thus you will see that slight glow. In normal dark room viewing, the best plasma will appear black without the need for bias lighting. I don't use it with my F8500. I initially did, but then tried it with the light off, and liked that better.
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post #8 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 12:41 PM
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I found that a bias light increased my perception of my S60's blacks by a good 20-30%. My eyes adjust more to the light, and since my pupils close some compared to being in a completley lights off room, there is less light from my tv entering my eye and blacks appear blacker.. and it gives the room a nice gentle theater like glow.
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post #9 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll definitely be picking up an upgraded bias light, seems like there's some very cost effective LED options on amazon.

I took a few more photos in an attempt to catch the magenta tint at the bottom. Not sure it showed up. (screen is cut off because my 60mm is a fixed lens, I'm as far back in the room as I can get)





And another pixel close up:

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post #10 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Most tv screens are black, or close to it, plus it's hard to get a room absent of light. Just the glow from the tv, would bounce light off the wall and back on to your screen. Unlike FALD, plasma can not completely turn off zones, thus you will see that slight glow. In normal dark room viewing, the best plasma will appear black without the need for bias lighting. I don't use it with my F8500. I initially did, but then tried it with the light off, and liked that better.
I'm almost wondering if I should save some and stretch the budget to a 51" F8500.. I could potentially reorient my room to reduce my viewing distance from 11.5ft to 9.5ft. Regardless, going from a 60" down to a 51" may be tough. Unsure if the picture upgrade would be worth the size tradeoff ... and 2x+ price increase (as I dont care about 3d or smart TV).
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post #11 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I'm almost wondering if I should save some and stretch the budget to a 51" F8500.. I could potentially reorient my room to reduce my viewing distance from 11.5ft to 9.5ft. Regardless, going from a 60" down to a 51" may be tough. Unsure if the picture upgrade would be worth the size tradeoff ... and 2x+ price increase (as I don't care about 3d or smart TV).
Go with the PN64H5000. It has been on sale 2 of the last 4 weeks at Fry's, and Amazon will price match, for $1199. It has great performing black levels and no pink tint.
It's not $700, but its certainly a much cheaper option than the F8500.
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post #12 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I'm almost wondering if I should save some and stretch the budget to a 51" F8500.. I could potentially reorient my room to reduce my viewing distance from 11.5ft to 9.5ft. Regardless, going from a 60" down to a 51" may be tough. Unsure if the picture upgrade would be worth the size tradeoff ... and 2x+ price increase (as I dont care about 3d or smart TV).
I wouldn't go from a 60 to a 51 either. What about the 64F5300? It does not have a pentile screen.
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post #13 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Go with the PN64H5000. It has been on sale 2 of the last 4 weeks at Fry's, and Amazon will price match, for $1199. It has great performing black levels and no pink tint.
It's not $700, but its certainly a much cheaper option than the F8500.
It is my understanding that the H5000 does not have the greyscale/CMS calibration abilities. That's an important factor for me.

This review seems to indicate otherwise though... hmm. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h...1403143657.htm

It is a pentile screen but thats not as much an issue for me as the pink tint.

The F8500 really is out of my budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I wouldn't go from a 60 to a 51 either. What about the 64F5300? It does not have a pentile screen.
Have you seen the 64F5300 available at a fair price anywhere? I haven't have much luck in locating them anywhere, especially locally.

It would be my first choice as a replacement. Sure wish I coulda jumped on the $1000 walmart deal a ways back.

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post #14 of 131 Old 07-18-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
It is my understanding that the H5000 does not have the greyscale/CMS calibration abilities. That's an important factor for me.

This review seems to indicate otherwise though... hmm. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/pn64h...1403143657.htm

It is a pentile screen but thats not as much an issue for me as the pink tint.

The F8500 really is out of my budget.



Have you seen the 64F5300 available at a fair price anywhere? I haven't have much luck in locating them anywhere, especially locally.

It would be my first choice as a replacement. Sure wish I coulda jumped on the $1000 walmart deal a ways back.
SHOPHQ has the 64F5300 for 6 easy pays
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post #15 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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SHOPHQ has the 64F5300 for 6 easy pays
That's interesting. I dont know anything about shophq, but it seems to be a relatively big retailer. Prices are slightly high. Thanks for the tip ... that certainly looks to be a viable option.

Anyone else seen 64" F5300's in stock anywhere?
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post #16 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 04:56 AM
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The sad thing is I can't tell how bad the pink tint is on your tv, because I'm looking at the picture on my own 60F5300 with pink tint problem.

Samsung Inception!
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post #17 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just watching some "Planet Earth", deep sea episode. Very pleasing black levels with my bias light on. I'm enjoying this set more and more as time goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stindawg View Post
the sad thing is i can't tell how bad the pink tint is on your tv, because i'm looking at the picture on my own 60f5300 with pink tint problem.

Samsung inception! :d
lol!
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post #18 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 01:33 PM
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Check your local Kmarts. I saw one on sale in store for $ 1200 today while the Sears/Kmart webshop says not available in my area.
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Check your local Kmarts. I saw one on sale in store for $ 1200 today while the Sears/Kmart webshop says not available in my area.
I just called 4 of my local K-Marts... seems like most of the K Mart employees have checked out and arent real interested in picking up transferred calls to the electronics department, lol.

No go. Everyone has the 60" @ $799.

If I could find the 64"@$1200, I'd go that direction in a heartbeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerTheBetter View Post
Thanks for the impressions RyanHomsey. It allows me to figure out where my PN60F5300 is compared to others. I think you have a worse case of magenta tint than me. There is no way that I could see it in mine using the last two scenes you posted. I need solid white in order to see mine.

It is there though. I still had some Winter Olympic stuff recorded and while watching ice skating with a full screen of the ice, I can see it if I look for it.

Here are my thoughts. I am not looking for a home theater setup though, but just a good TV to watch the shows on.

Magenta Tint:
I went a month without even noticing it. I spent my novice time calibrating it by paying attention to flesh tones and grass and all my other colors seem to fall in line. A few days ago though, I was watching a commercial with a full white background and saw what others were seeing. Mine is along the bottom and both sides and is more of a grayish area with a ever so slight magenta tint.

Once I saw it, I find myself looking for it any time a bright screen pops up, even though I can't see it 99 percent of the time. I can only see mine when there is a large area of white. During actual movies or shows, I can't see it unless I pause the picture and scrutinize it and even then I need to have large areas of solid white to see it.

Pentile display:
Non-issue for me. I have been watching a 50 inch 1366 x 768 plasma for the last six years and the Samsung 60 inch has noticeably less SDE than the 50 inch at any given distance. That's fine for me. I am not a resolution whore.

Blacks:
Non-issue. They look good to me.


I really do love the picture on this TV and am going to keep it. The magenta tint thing is mostly a mental thing for me. I will see if I can get over it.
It does seem like my tint is more extreme vs what others have described. I'd say, if I search hard for it, I can find evidence of it in 75%+ of full screen content. Obviously, it's a non issue with letterbox bar movies.

My previous comment about being "disappointed" with black levels was probably not the right terminology. They are very good and dark scenes are a pleasure to watch... a whole different level compared to my 42" CCFL LCD it replaced.

If I can get a non-tinted version, I'll be thrilled. The value in this panel is truly on a different level vs the current LCD offerings. Though, if I had to choose between a 60" Vizio E series FALD ... and a 60" F5300 with magenta tint ... I'd probably go with the LCD.

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post #20 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerTheBetter View Post
Pentile display:
Non-issue for me. I have been watching a 50 inch 1366 x 768 plasma for the last six years and the Samsung 60 inch has noticeably less SDE than the 50 inch at any given distance. That's fine for me. I am not a resolution whore.
Can you notice any SDE on your Samsung at 7-8 feet away?
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post #21 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you notice any SDE on your Samsung at 7-8 feet away?
For me, it largely goes away around 4-6ft but, I think, I can still make out hints of it at my sitting distance of 11.5ft away. For example, there was some text on the screen earlier ... I dont remember exactly what it was but it was a very fine large "S" with a black background. At the curve of the top of the "S" I can pick out a small break. Upon moving closer it certainly appeared to be caused by the "honeycomb" like pentile grid. Maybe I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with the pentile screen, but that's what I see. Other than that I dont notice it whatsoever.
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Can you notice any SDE on your Samsung at 7-8 feet away?
I won't be able to look until tomorrow. I think that seven to eight feet is about when I quit seeing SDE. I know that when I go from the 60 inch 5300 to my 50 inch (1366 x 768) there is a little grain shock and it takes a couple of seconds to adjust. I can instantly tell the difference in resolution.
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Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I just called 4 of my local K-Marts... seems like most of the K Mart employees have checked out and arent real interested in picking up transferred calls to the electronics department, lol.

No go. Everyone has the 60" @ $799.

If I could find the 64"@$1200, I'd go that direction in a heartbeat.



It does seem like my tint is more extreme vs what others have described. I'd say, if I search hard for it, I can find evidence of it in 75%+ of full screen content. Obviously, it's a non issue with letterbox bar movies.

My previous comment about being "disappointed" with black levels was probably not the right terminology. They are very good and dark scenes are a pleasure to watch... a whole different level compared to my 42" CCFL LCD it replaced.

If I can get a non-tinted version, I'll be thrilled. The value in this panel is truly on a different level vs the current LCD offerings. Though, if I had to choose between a 60" Vizio E series FALD ... and a 60" F5300 with magenta tint ... I'd probably go with the LCD.

The 64" is the model I saw onsale.
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post #24 of 131 Old 07-19-2014, 10:23 PM
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Great,Upon moving closer it certainly appeared to be caused by the "honeycomb" like pentile grid. Maybe I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with the pentile screen, but that's what I see. Other than that I dont notice it whatsoever.[IMG]http://*******/WNKpGN[/IMG]
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post #25 of 131 Old 07-20-2014, 10:27 AM
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So the 51 and 64 seem to be immune to the pink tint issue ? I have been reading so many threads in a quest for a new tv and starting to get confused on the defects between all the models I am considering.
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post #26 of 131 Old 07-20-2014, 11:48 PM
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Here's my 60F5300...

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post #27 of 131 Old 07-21-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick update on my sears return. After much resistance and a refused offer to "mail a check", I eventually got them to credit my debit card. I will not ever do business with sears again. Looks like they're on their way out anyway.

As long as the credit shows up in my account today I'll be heading down to costco to purchase one of their F5350 versions @ $750.

I also spotted an open box 60" F5300 @ a local bestbuy, they were asking $720, $20 over the $699 price I had payed at sears. It was probably too scratched up for me to be interested in negotiating an appropriate price for... but it was an "a" version with a Nov 2013 manufacture date (fair chance of no pink tint).
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post #28 of 131 Old 07-21-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post

The F8500 really is out of my budget.



Have you seen the 64F5300 available at a fair price anywhere? I haven't have much luck in locating them anywhere, especially locally.

It would be my first choice as a replacement. Sure wish I coulda jumped on the $1000 walmart deal a ways back.
What is your budget? You can buy the 8500 off of HSN and in 5 payments of about 620/mo and you get the TV on the first payment. It's the same $3,099 price with free shipping. $844, including tax gets you the 8500 in your home probably within 14 days. I may be doing this also, instead of waiting 3-4 months of saving and then it may be out of stock by that time, you might as well get it now, if you can through HSN on flex payments.
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post #29 of 131 Old 07-21-2014, 09:08 AM
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I got zero issues with my 60". And I'm completely 100% happy with it...even though I may be upgrading to an 8500 soon, but the picture seems to be getting better and better. Blu-rays, live sports, netflix... for $700, you cannot beat the color accuracy of this thing and the smooth motion.
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post #30 of 131 Old 07-21-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Most tv's, the bezel is blacker than the powered off screen. Even with my my 5020, in a dark room, after letting my eyes adjust, I can see the difference between the bezel and screen.
Could that be why they made this bezel dark brown?

Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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