Countering pink-tint on my F5300 with slides - Dumb idea? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Countering pink-tint on my F5300 with slides - Dumb idea?

Hi folks,

I have the Samsung PN60F5300 and the screen uniformity is good for the most part but I have a minor pink tint issue along the bottom edge of the panel. Fortunately this isn't too bad (as was the case with the first TV which I exchanged for the current one), but it does bother me when viewing black and white movies/content in which case the slight magenta cast becomes very visible even if minor since you are expecting and seeing a perfectly neutral gray tone on the rest of the screen.

What I am proposing to do is create an image that is black everywhere except red along the bottom edge (with a gradient transition to black) to match the red-tint dimensions on-screen, and displaying this for prolonged periods on my TV. The logic is to essentially age the red cells further in comparison the Blue and Green cells along the bottom edge of the screen. The hope is that this may allow some rectification of the red tint issue. I'm wondering if this could potentially help alleviate the red tint issue to some extent and whether anyone else has ever tried anything similar? Of course, if this is a completely daft idea with no chance of sucess, I'd like to hear that too to save myself the hassle and potential of making things worse instead of better. I posted this on another thread but didn't really get any input on if this may work.
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post #2 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 11:24 AM
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Pink tint is caused by under-discharge of the panel - basically the shorter wavelengths are discharging faster than the longer ones. (Red has a longer wavelength, lower emission energy.) It has nothing to do with the cells being aged in that part of the panel, so I can't see this making any difference.

For any owners willing to risk their warranty (eh, they won't find out if you don't tell them) you can probably fix this by adjusting the Vsus voltage on the power supply. Similar pink tint issues apply to Samsung C and D-series 1080p plasma panels.
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Last edited by tom669; 07-21-2014 at 03:28 PM. Reason: lower->longer, physics is hard
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post #3 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
Pink tint is caused by under-discharge of the panel - basically the shorter wavelengths are discharging faster than the longer ones. (Red has a lower wavelength, lower emission energy.) It has nothing to do with the cells being aged in that part of the panel, so I can't see this making any difference.

For any owners willing to risk their warranty (eh, they won't find out if you don't tell them) you can probably fix this by adjusting the Vsus voltage on the power supply. Similar pink tint issues apply to Samsung C and D-series 1080p plasma panels.
Tom, thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that the issue has to do with the blue and green phosphors decaying faster than red resulting in an overall perception of red-tint?

Are there any links to refer to for the Vsus mod. Also, does Samsung actually address this issue under a warranty claim? Do they actually send capable techs to fix the issue by adjusting the voltage on the PSU?
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post #4 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Tom, thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that the issue has to do with the blue and green phosphors decaying faster than red resulting in an overall perception of red-tint?

Are there any links to refer to for the Vsus mod. Also, does Samsung actually address this issue under a warranty claim? Do they actually send capable techs to fix the issue by adjusting the voltage on the PSU?
Decaying faster being relative -- we're talking about microseconds here! When the panel is sustained, the sustain electrode voltage will drop slightly, causing the red to remain sustained for a longer period of each sub field. Hence, pink tint.

Samsung do not (yet) have a fix for the pink tint on this model, on the other models it involves Vsus increase and firmware update. You can skip the firmware update for most panels.

See here: PN58C8000 Pink Banding

Ideally you would use a voltmeter but you can also adjust it by eye being careful not to go too high or low.
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post #5 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Tom, thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that the issue has to do with the blue and green phosphors decaying faster than red resulting in an overall perception of red-tint?

Are there any links to refer to for the Vsus mod. Also, does Samsung actually address this issue under a warranty claim? Do they actually send capable techs to fix the issue by adjusting the voltage on the PSU?
You should look at Mark H's service call experience over in the "Why I bought a plasma in 2014" thread, to summarize it was not good and the issue was not resolved. He has an F8500 now. There was as similar issue with the Panasonic VT50 but the discoloration was yellow. All same route cause of voltage.

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post #6 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
Decaying faster being relative -- we're talking about microseconds here! When the panel is sustained, the sustain electrode voltage will drop slightly, causing the red to remain sustained for a longer period of each sub field. Hence, pink tint.

Samsung do not (yet) have a fix for the pink tint on this model, on the other models it involves Vsus increase and firmware update. You can skip the firmware update for most panels.

See here: PN58C8000 Pink Banding

Ideally you would use a voltmeter but you can also adjust it by eye being careful not to go too high or low.
Ha, I was actually on that thread when I saw your reply! Thanks, it looks really really promising! Since you said that Samsung does not yet have a fix for the pink tint on this model, is it fair to say that calling Samsung right now will be a waste of time as their tech would not be willing to adjust the Vsus voltage setting given the lack of any service bulletin about this? Given that I have a year of warranty service to go, and that the high voltages in the back make me a bit nervous about working on the panel myself, I'm wondering if I should try to have a Samsung tech do the voltage modification?

On the other hand, it does seem to be a really simple modification as long as I have a multimeter with alligator clips and an insulated philips head screwdriver.

Would you mind if I pinged you via PM if and when I do muster up the courage to try this myself? I have 6 month old twins, and fatherhood has suddenly made me a lot more paranoid about doing things that could be risky

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
You should look at Mark H's service call experience over in the "Why I bought a plasma in 2014" thread, to summarize it was not good and the issue was not resolved. He has an F8500 now. There was as similar issue with the Panasonic VT50 but the discoloration was yellow. All same route cause of voltage.
Thanks chunon, I actually have already read through all 30+ pages of that thread and ironically enough, that is what inspired me to buy this panel. I was willing to play the panel lottery to find a TV without this issue, or atleast a very minor issue. I can live with the pink tint as is, but if there is an easy fix, I sure would like to try it.

From reading the other thread Tom linked to, it sure does seem to be a voltage issue and this makes complete sense to me. The older plasma TVs that were not super aggressive in trying to reduce power consumption never seemed to have these issues. My budget TC-P42C1 Panny plasma TV (purchased in 2010) has amazingly uniform colors without the slightest hint of any non-uniformities. As per the specs, it has the same max power consumption as this 60" PN60F5300. So it makes sense that they are a lot more aggressive with Voltages, etc to try and reduce power consumption and that this is causing these issues.
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post #7 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Ha, I was actually on that thread when I saw your reply! Thanks, it looks really really promising! Since you said that Samsung does not yet have a fix for the pink tint on this model, is it fair to say that calling Samsung right now will be a waste of time as their tech would not be willing to adjust the Vsus voltage setting given the lack of any service bulletin about this? Given that I have a year of warranty service to go, and that the high voltages in the back make me a bit nervous about working on the panel myself, I'm wondering if I should try to have a Samsung tech do the voltage modification?

On the other hand, it does seem to be a really simple modification as long as I have a multimeter with alligator clips and an insulated philips head screwdriver.

Would you mind if I pinged you via PM if and when I do muster up the courage to try this myself? I have 6 month old twins, and fatherhood has suddenly made me a lot more paranoid about doing things that could be risky


Thanks chunon, I actually have already read through all 30+ pages of that thread and ironically enough, that is what inspired me to buy this panel. I was willing to play the panel lottery to find a TV without this issue, or atleast a very minor issue. I can live with the pink tint as is, but if there is an easy fix, I sure would like to try it.

From reading the other thread Tom linked to, it sure does seem to be a voltage issue and this makes complete sense to me. The older plasma TVs that were not super aggressive in trying to reduce power consumption never seemed to have these issues. My budget TC-P42C1 Panny plasma TV (purchased in 2010) has amazingly uniform colors without the slightest hint of any non-uniformities. As per the specs, it has the same max power consumption as this 60" PN60F5300. So it makes sense that they are a lot more aggressive with Voltages, etc to try and reduce power consumption and that this is causing these issues.
You are welcome to PM me, but I do work 9-5 UK time (GMT+1)

Yes, it does appear in part related to power saving. It also appears to be related to thinner and lighter panel construction, less gas and higher gas pressure between a thinner panel layer. Not a bad design -- gives greater efficiency -- but it's a lot harder to get consistent panels.

If you can find an independent tech and link them to the C8000 thread, they MAY do it for a small fee, but I would say there is zero chance in getting an actual Samsung tech to do it. There is high voltage inside the set so always work with someone else in the room. Basically do NOT touch any metal component in the set while it is live with the exception of the back metal behind the plasma panel glass, as this is grounded. Everything else is to be treated as if it is LIVE.

Now you would be the first to try this on these panels to the best of my knowledge, so you can be a pioneer on this. Feedback would be appreciated.
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post #8 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You are welcome to PM me, but I do work 9-5 UK time (GMT+1)

Yes, it does appear in part related to power saving. It also appears to be related to thinner and lighter panel construction, less gas and higher gas pressure between a thinner panel layer. Not a bad design -- gives greater efficiency -- but it's a lot harder to get consistent panels.

If you can find an independent tech and link them to the C8000 thread, they MAY do it for a small fee, but I would say there is zero chance in getting an actual Samsung tech to do it. There is high voltage inside the set so always work with someone else in the room. Basically do NOT touch any metal component in the set while it is live with the exception of the back metal behind the plasma panel glass, as this is grounded. Everything else is to be treated as if it is LIVE.

Now you would be the first to try this on these panels to the best of my knowledge, so you can be a pioneer on this. Feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks very much tom... I already ordered my multimeter and insulated screwdriver for pickup an hour back, so it sure looks like curiousity and impatience will likely get the better of me and cause me to try this out . I am still well within my 30 day return window at the store, so it seems like if I were to gamble and try this, now would be the best time to attempt it.

Btw, is the recommended Vs setting on a label on the power board or should I find it on the back of the plasma backplate (i.e. without unscrewing the back)?
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post #9 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Thanks very much tom... I already ordered my multimeter and insulated screwdriver for pickup an hour back, so it sure looks like curiousity and impatience will likely get the better of me and cause me to try this out . I am still well within my 30 day return window at the store, so it seems like if I were to gamble and try this, now would be the best time to attempt it.

Btw, is the recommended Vs setting on a label on the power board or should I find it on the back of the plasma backplate (i.e. without unscrewing the back)?
The Vs is printed on the inside of the TV, on the back metal plate behind the plasma glass. Could you supply a picture of this label for future reference?
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post #10 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 03:21 PM
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VERY interested in the outcome of this!

Please do take pics and let us know your results!

With all the hassle I'm going through with my sears return I wish I would have found this information sooner and gave it a try first.
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post #11 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 03:35 PM
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There have been some reports of pink tint problems like this improving or even disappearing after a few hundred hours.
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post #12 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 03:50 PM
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There have been some reports of pink tint problems like this improving or even disappearing after a few hundred hours.
This too is news to me. I have only heard that it stayed the same or got worse.
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This too is news to me. I have only heard that it stayed the same or got worse.
See here, here and here for example....
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post #14 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perchancetodream View Post
See here, here and here for example....
Any reports on the pink tint disappearing on Samsung plasmas as the panel ages as the posts you linked to are for Panasonic plasmas.
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post #15 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 04:25 PM
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Any reports on the pink tint disappearing on Samsung plasmas as the panel ages as the posts you linked to are for Panasonic plasmas.
This is obviously a general plasma issue . . . I've read about some LGs that have it too.
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post #16 of 77 Old 07-21-2014, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
The Vs is printed on the inside of the TV, on the back metal plate behind the plasma glass. Could you supply a picture of this label for future reference?
Hi tom, definitely will take pics and share when I do this. I think I'll keep my panel running for a couple hundred hours first to see if there is any change as per perchancetodream's suggestion. I already have close to 130 hours on it, so it should take a few more days to get to 200 hours. I've noticed that the red tint seems a bit temparamental...at times it is quite faint while at other times it is more noticeable. I suspect that this is not going to completely disappear all by itself.

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VERY interested in the outcome of this!

Please do take pics and let us know your results!

With all the hassle I'm going through with my sears return I wish I would have found this information sooner and gave it a try first.
Definitely will do Ryan. I'm surprised no one mentioned this in the 30+ page thread by Mark. It would be really awesome if the voltage tweak were to fix this issue completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by perchancetodream View Post
There have been some reports of pink tint problems like this improving or even disappearing after a few hundred hours.
Thanks for the info and links. I'll try to run my plasma to around 200-250 hours to see if there is any improvement before I attempt the voltage mod (probably this coming weekend).
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post #17 of 77 Old 07-22-2014, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The Vs is printed on the inside of the TV, on the back metal plate behind the plasma glass. Could you supply a picture of this label for future reference?
So, I bit the bullet and took off the back panel tonight. I haven't downloaded the pics off of my DSLR so I don't have any to share just yet. Vs is spec'd to 208V. Unfortunately for me, my multimeter had a faulty battery in it, so my initial Vs reading was incorrect and I ended up changing the Vs potentiometer before I realized that my multimeter was giving me incorrect readings.

So I swapped out the battery, played with the potentiometer to get Vs up to 212V and then closed the TV back up. Unfortunately for me, this did not seem to improve the red tint situation at the base of the TV . I dunno if it is worth opening the panel back up and upping the Vs some more.

What would your thoughts be?
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post #18 of 77 Old 07-22-2014, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
So, I bit the bullet and took off the back panel tonight. I haven't downloaded the pics off of my DSLR so I don't have any to share just yet. Vs is spec'd to 208V. Unfortunately for me, my multimeter had a faulty battery in it, so my initial Vs reading was incorrect and I ended up changing the Vs potentiometer before I realized that my multimeter was giving me incorrect readings.

So I swapped out the battery, played with the potentiometer to get Vs up to 212V and then closed the TV back up. Unfortunately for me, this did not seem to improve the red tint situation at the base of the TV . I dunno if it is worth opening the panel back up and upping the Vs some more.

What would your thoughts be?
Hmm, it might be that it is not the fix for these models and the cause is something else like uneven gas discharge. You could try a little higher around 215V but I would have expected a change around 212V anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perchancetodream View Post
There have been some reports of pink tint problems like this improving or even disappearing after a few hundred hours.
I have a 60F5300 with about 400 hours on it. Pink tint has gotten worse if anything.
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Do you guys have the 2013 A models or the 2014 B models? Mines the A model and I'm not sure if I have this issue or if my grayscale calibration is simply off.
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To add a little data just recently got a 2011 D-series 720p (PS51D450) on my bench - AV board is bad but ran test patterns manually without it - full white had some pink tint around bottom edges and into middle of screen so upped Vs from 205V rated to 212V and that's gone, not a bad panel when it's working.
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I received my 60F5500 today and mine has the pink tint across the bottom and right side edge of the screen but also the rest of the screen that isn't affected by the pink tint has a green tinted look to it.


I may return the set if the tints are not correctable by increasing the Vs.
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post #23 of 77 Old 07-23-2014, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Partial success!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
To add a little data just recently got a 2011 D-series 720p (PS51D450) on my bench - AV board is bad but ran test patterns manually without it - full white had some pink tint around bottom edges and into middle of screen so upped Vs from 205V rated to 212V and that's gone, not a bad panel when it's working.
WARNING: The plasma panels use fairly high voltages along with capacitors that store enough charge even when the TV is unplugged to give you a nasty shock that could result in serious injury/death! Please be extremely careful when taking off the back panel and working on the TV. Some suggestions/safety precautions to follow:

  • Wear thick rubber soled sneakers while working on the TV and make sure not to provide an alternate path to ground by kneeling, etc.
  • Use an insulated screwdriver to work on the potentiometer to prevent accidentally touching a capacitor or live element
  • Preferably wear thick rubber gloves while working on the panel
  • ALWAYS have someone else around to ensure that you are okay and to be prepared to provide emergency assistance/call for help if something does go wrong
  • Patience is the key to safety. Take your time, work slowly and methodically and avoid sudden movements, etc.
  • If you are not comfortable working a multimeter then you probably shouldn't be trying this.

I decided to take apart the TV again today to play around with voltages some more. I realized from the last time around, that I needed a better series of images to use as test images to determine if the red tint was improving or getting worse as I changed the Vs voltage. So I prepared a few images from B&W movies as well as some 1920x1080 black and white images via Google Search and loaded them on a USB Drive.

From running slides yesterday, it seemed almost like the red tint had gotten worse after I had set the Vs to 213V yesterday. When testing today, I dropped Vs down to 203V and to my surprise, I noticed that the red-tint seemed to have improved! A LOT of testing followed, and a lot of questioning my sanity and eyes. Fortunately, I had a bunch of great images to test the red-tint issue on and I was able to convince both myself, and my wife that the red-tint got a lot lighter when I dropped Vs. Ultimately, I ended up setting Vs at 197V, which is the lowest the potentiometer would let me set. This seemed to provide the best result, and so far, things do look much better.

This hasn't completely solved the red-tint issue, but it has brought it down to a level where a lot of people wouldn't even notice the red-tint anymore. I do still see it when browsing (white windows) and in some B&W scenes in movies, but I have to say that it has improved substantially and the red tint is easy to miss when I was watching Chaplin's Gold Rush.

I really don't understand why lowering the voltage improved the situation, especially because I am quite far away from the Panel spec for Vs of 208V. I did multiple tests, and both my wife and I could convincingly tell that the higher voltages 205-213V had more red tint issues, with the red tint getting stronger the higher I went in voltage. Should I be worried about any problems I might cause by setting Vs so much lower than the spec?

If things don't get any worse, I think I'll probably be satisfied with these improvements and will stick with this TV and panel. I'm still tempted to escalate with Samsung to see if they would come out and swap panels, etc till I was satisfied, but I have a feeling that my current panel performance will be deemed "within spec".

I also probed a couple of other voltages using the test points on the various boards. This is where I am at right now:
Vs = 197V (Spec: 208V)
Va = 55.5V (Spec: 57V)
Ve = 113.8V (Spec: 115V)
Vscan = -200V (Spec: -200V)

And now for the promised pictures!

I think most of the pics are self explanatory. The picture of the screws on the table is just to show how I placed them while unscrewing them so that it would be easy to match the screws back up with the back plate when putting everything back together. Be careful as some of the screws are of a different length than the others.

Also, for the VsBoard image, the Red circle highlights the potentiometer for adjusting Vs (Clockwise increases Vs) and the Green circle is the test point that you will need to probe with a multimeter to measure Vs. Note that there aren't any posts for test points on these boards, so alligator clips won't work when probing with a multimeter.
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post #24 of 77 Old 07-23-2014, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Test Images for Red Tint issue

Thought I'd post these for the benefit of others. I especially like the one of the kitten as it can really bring out any red tint that you may have at the bottom edge of the panel.

Edit - These are test images for your benefit to test out your panel...not images of my panel
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Last edited by orion2001; 07-24-2014 at 05:43 AM.
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post #25 of 77 Old 07-23-2014, 10:39 PM
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I have a 60F5300 that i purchased and had (light) pink tinting at the bottom. I have run NOTHING but slides for all the 176 hours on the panel so far and I believe the pink faded some. I finally played maybe two hours of Destiny today and noticed no tint during gameplay.

I've seen pictures with far more pronounced pink tint issues than my panel. I am pretty sure that the issue is slowly going away. No way to genuinely prove that, which would help put others at ease. I actually hooked up my ZT and the F5300 to the same source and think this is a great TV for the price.

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post #26 of 77 Old 07-23-2014, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidawgz View Post
I have a 60F5300 that i purchased and had (light) pink tinting at the bottom. I have run NOTHING but slides for all the 176 hours on the panel so far and I believe the pink faded some. I finally played maybe two hours of Destiny today and noticed no tint during gameplay.

I've seen pictures with far more pronounced pink tint issues than my panel. I am pretty sure that the issue is slowly going away. No way to genuinely prove that, which would help put others at ease. I actually hooked up my ZT and the F5300 to the same source and think this is a great TV for the price.
That's interesting. I have ~ 160 hours on my set and unfortunately did not notice the issue going away. What I did notice was that it seemed a bit temperamental. Sometimes, right after turning on the TV, it was barely visible, but usually it always came back and was stronger after having the TV on for a while.

At no point however has it been at the level I have now after dropping Vs. It's been 4 hours now and the red tint level has stayed the same, so I am cautiously optimistic at this point. I just wish I could completely alleviate the issue via voltage tweaks.
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post #27 of 77 Old 07-24-2014, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Thought I'd post these for the benefit of others. I especially like the one of the kitten as it really shows the red tint at the bottom edge of the panel.
Don't quite get it.

Am I missing anything?!

The picture of the kitten does not show any pink tint at the bottom edge whatsoever on my monitor.

The only thing I can see on the white and gray pix is a very slight diffuse pink tint on the left side generously covering the upper left corner area from about 3/4 down from the top. Don't see anything at all on the bottom of the panel.

The 4:3 pictures of course have a lot of black picture area and I don't see anything at all there. Also, the tree picture looks fine.

Are you sure you have posted the output of your panel and not the original images?

I do have glasses, but I ain't blind . . . .

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post #28 of 77 Old 07-24-2014, 03:09 AM
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It's great to see you have fixed the problem mostly. Odd that lower Vs is less pink - opposite of most panels, so I wonder if something else is going on here...

Oddly low Vs will usually cause a pink tint, otherwise the picture may also be very slightly dimmer (less than 5% difference.)

If you are willing to do a few more tweaks consider increasing Ve slightly (by 20V max) and making -Vsc slightly more negative (max -210V) When adjusting both of these do check for sparkling pixels (random RGB) on dark or greyscale images.

Do not adjust Va at any point it must stay within 2V of panel sticker.
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post #29 of 77 Old 07-24-2014, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perchancetodream View Post
Are you sure you have posted the output of your panel and not the original images?

I do have glasses, but I ain't blind . . . .
Sorry! I guess I worded that poorly... probably because it was late at night . Those images are the original images to help anyone here test out their panel, especially when trying voltage adjustments. I find that the all-white image isn't the best when tweaking voltages as your eyes can play tricks on you when viewing an all-white screen. The black and white images help a lot in determining if things are improving or getting worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom669 View Post
It's great to see you have fixed the problem mostly. Odd that lower Vs is less pink - opposite of most panels, so I wonder if something else is going on here...

Oddly low Vs will usually cause a pink tint, otherwise the picture may also be very slightly dimmer (less than 5% difference.)

If you are willing to do a few more tweaks consider increasing Ve slightly (by 20V max) and making -Vsc slightly more negative (max -210V) When adjusting both of these do check for sparkling pixels (random RGB) on dark or greyscale images.

Do not adjust Va at any point it must stay within 2V of panel sticker.
Thanks Tom. I guess I might try that though I'm getting a bit sick of unscrewing and screwing back the back panel on the TV . Should I set Vs back to 208 before playing with Ve and -Vsc? Also, any suggestion on what approach to take when tweaking all 3? I'm worried I'll drive myself mad tweaking voltage combinations and trying to judge if there was any improvement in panel performance.
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post #30 of 77 Old 07-24-2014, 05:53 AM
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Try these adjustments from 208V. If they don't make a difference just change to 197V with original Ve/-Vsc.
When I am working on TVs I only keep 4 screws on the case to hold it in place, if I need to take the cover off again.
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