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post #31 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NJPapi1977 View Post
I dont use default settings.

I use custom settings on Standard in Game Mode and Standard in PC Mode.

I see no different in PQ except a bit darker in PC Mode Standard and color is native default greyed out with warm 2 (my preference)

In Game Mode I at least get to use my custom color setting and put BO

In Last of us remastered the Last of Us title screen with the all black background when the game starts looks awesome with game mode BO to Dark Room but in PC Mode it is greyed a bit the black background.
interesting. I never noticed a change in brightness with mine. the other things, yes definitely. I just felt I was able to get the color close enough without using the 10pt controls, but that is definitely a downside to using PC mode. then again, if you actually use it for a PC, you could adjust those settings on your video card I suppose.


with regards to the Last of Us title screen. have you tried game mode with BO off? just wondering if that's entirely contributed to BO or if there is even more picture quality loss due to PC mode.


as I said before, the advantages of using game mode didn't really apply to me, since I turn up the brightness 'too much' anyway. the title screen might not look as good, but I find the gameplay more enjoyable if I can see more in the shadows. but I'm not arguing that PC mode is as good as game mode when it comes to PQ, it's not, and that's why I don't watch movies that way ever, haha.

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post #32 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 02:47 PM
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Okay, so I am trying to use two HDMI cables. With one, I can have all 4 sources on and flip between them. With two cables, it seems only my cable works, my ps4 sometimes and never my Xboxs. But once I unplug the second HDMI, I see all 4 again.

Any ideas?

Edit: when I change the source on my receiver, the screen from the xbox one will show briefly and then it says no source on the tv.

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post #33 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
interesting. I never noticed a change in brightness with mine. the other things, yes definitely. I just felt I was able to get the color close enough without using the 10pt controls, but that is definitely a downside to using PC mode. then again, if you actually use it for a PC, you could adjust those settings on your video card I suppose.


with regards to the Last of Us title screen. have you tried game mode with BO off? just wondering if that's entirely contributed to BO or if there is even more picture quality loss due to PC mode.


as I said before, the advantages of using game mode didn't really apply to me, since I turn up the brightness 'too much' anyway. the title screen might not look as good, but I find the gameplay more enjoyable if I can see more in the shadows. but I'm not arguing that PC mode is as good as game mode when it comes to PQ, it's not, and that's why I don't watch movies that way ever, haha.
I will turn off BO in Game Mode and see the title screen. I have it set to Dark Room and my Cell Light is 18 and Contrast 98 and brightness 45

Good thing about the last of us is that in dark spots it shoots up the gama and shoots it down when out of the darkness.

I think Game Mode and PC mode are the same in terms of PQ except for the native default color space on PC compared to more options in Game Mode.
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post #34 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ParityBit View Post
Okay, so I am trying to use two HDMI cables. With one, I can have all 4 sources on and flip between them. With two cables, it seems only my cable works, my ps4 sometimes and never my Xboxs. But once I unplug the second HDMI, I see all 4 again.

Any ideas?
Are you running HDMI from your sources to an AVR and then running two HDMI cables from the AVR to the TV or something else?

1) With your TV, receiver, and all 3 source devices already turned on, try unplugging the second HDMI cable and plugging it back in to see if the signal goes black again for your PS4 and Xbox. It's possible that "hot plugging" it will resolve the issue. I realize that this is not an ideal solution, but it is worth testing as it could confirm the source of the problem.
2) If unplugging and plugging the cable back in does not immediately result in the screen going black again then follow that procedure up by switching the source from the PS4 to Xbox or vice versa, with both cables plugged in. Does it go black again as soon as you switch sources?
3) If unplugging and plugging the cable back in while everything is turned on causes the screen to go black again, try turning everything off, unplugging the first HDMI cable running from the receiver to the TV and then turning everything back on. If it works with one HDMI cable in, regardless of which cable you use or which ports you plug that HDMI cable into then that eliminates both the cord and the specific ports as the problem. This would leave only the dual connection and resulting handshake conflicts as a potential culprit.
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post #35 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Are you running HDMI from your sources to an AVR and then running two HDMI cables from the AVR to the TV or something else?

1) With your TV, receiver, and all 3 source devices already turned on, try unplugging the second HDMI cable and plugging it back in to see if the signal goes black again for your PS4 and Xbox. It's possible that "hot plugging" it will resolve the issue. I realize that this is not an ideal solution, but it is worth testing as it could confirm the source of the problem.
2) If unplugging and plugging the cable back in does not immediately result in the screen going black again then follow that procedure up by switching the source from the PS4 to Xbox or vice versa, with both cables plugged in. Does it go black again as soon as you switch sources?
3) If unplugging and plugging the cable back in while everything is turned on causes the screen to go black again, try turning everything off, unplugging the first HDMI cable running from the receiver to the TV and then turning everything back on. If it works with one HDMI cable in, regardless of which cable you use or which ports you plug that HDMI cable into then that eliminates both the cord and the specific ports as the problem. This would leave only the dual connection and resulting handshake conflicts as a potential culprit.
Okay I tried those. It appears it only works when I have a single HDMI cable connected. It does not matter what input on the back of the screen I out the second.

Could it be because one of the wires has Ethernet for arc?

I am using HDMI for all components and then the two to the tv. I have a Denon x2100 and the F8500.

Edit: if it put just the cable box and ps4, both cables work fine! So it has to be a setting in my Xboxs?

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post #36 of 55 Old 07-30-2014, 11:08 PM
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HDMI is the worst cable ever invented!!!


seriously, there's so much 'handshaking' required, it's a wonder when things actually do work. I've used a couple different power splitters, and one passive splitter, and they ALL have some quirks. I've even had it where for a week, it would work fine as long as only one display was turned on, then the next week, it would only work if they were all turned on(then I could turn the others off as needed once 'connected).


anyway, ranting aside, the way it SHOULD work:


connect all sources to receiver. connect one HDMI out from receiver to HDMI1 on tv. connect the second HDMI out from receiver to HDMI2 on tv. boom! done, simple. obviously hdmi is up to its tricks again, and doesn't want to play nice for some obscure reason...


what I found interesting, is quickly looking through the manual for your receiver, is that it makes no mention of using BOTH HDMI outputs at the same time. it sounds like an either/or situation. you either use the ARC one, or the other. not sure if you can use both. I always just assumed if a receiver had two outputs you could use two outputs, especially when only one of them is being used at a time anyway. but then again, this is HDMI, and HDMI makes friends with nobody...


are you using any kind of ARC or HDMI control? that's really the only thing I can think of. have you tried using the non ARC hdmi out only? maybe the xbox is trying to 'talk' back to the receiver, and it's causing issues because it'll only be able to do that on the ARC output. if there's a way to turn off ARC or HDMI control on the xbox, that may help.
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post #37 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 02:50 AM
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How could you get PQ loss by disabling video processing?

PC mode should just mean native pixel mapping is used, less possibility for double conversion of the colorspace and also bypass of audio/video decoders and other things which can be handled easily by the computer
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post #38 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
HDMI is the worst cable ever invented!!!


seriously, there's so much 'handshaking' required, it's a wonder when things actually do work. I've used a couple different power splitters, and one passive splitter, and they ALL have some quirks. I've even had it where for a week, it would work fine as long as only one display was turned on, then the next week, it would only work if they were all turned on(then I could turn the others off as needed once 'connected).


anyway, ranting aside, the way it SHOULD work:


connect all sources to receiver. connect one HDMI out from receiver to HDMI1 on tv. connect the second HDMI out from receiver to HDMI2 on tv. boom! done, simple. obviously hdmi is up to its tricks again, and doesn't want to play nice for some obscure reason...


what I found interesting, is quickly looking through the manual for your receiver, is that it makes no mention of using BOTH HDMI outputs at the same time. it sounds like an either/or situation. you either use the ARC one, or the other. not sure if you can use both. I always just assumed if a receiver had two outputs you could use two outputs, especially when only one of them is being used at a time anyway. but then again, this is HDMI, and HDMI makes friends with nobody...


are you using any kind of ARC or HDMI control? that's really the only thing I can think of. have you tried using the non ARC hdmi out only? maybe the xbox is trying to 'talk' back to the receiver, and it's causing issues because it'll only be able to do that on the ARC output. if there's a way to turn off ARC or HDMI control on the xbox, that may help.
I do have it setup that way, and that is a good point. I could try just using the "second" HDMI out and see what happens. I think I always used the first one. I am not sure if there is a way to turn that stuff off with the Xbox. I tried changing the output to pure RGB and stuff.

It is REALLY frustrating. What is interesting is that it works fine with 2 HDMI with just the cable box and PS4.

If I do not get this to work (I am going to keep trying), could I have my Harmony Ultimate change the mode in the activity? It would probably be slow too huh?
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post #39 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
How could you get PQ loss by disabling video processing?

PC mode should just mean native pixel mapping is used, less possibility for double conversion of the colorspace and also bypass of audio/video decoders and other things which can be handled easily by the computer

I'm confused too, PC is pure native picture, now I understand if you calibrate the color space but I didn't. After calibrating black level brightness and contrast it seems I have the same picture as non PC mode. Am I Wrong?


also in my Samsung and Xbox I have it set to TV black level and HDMI Low and it looks the best. HDMI normal makes it looked washed out but low looks better but a little detail loss in shadows. Don't know which is better haha
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post #40 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 02:58 PM
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I do have it setup that way, and that is a good point. I could try just using the "second" HDMI out and see what happens. I think I always used the first one. I am not sure if there is a way to turn that stuff off with the Xbox. I tried changing the output to pure RGB and stuff.

It is REALLY frustrating. What is interesting is that it works fine with 2 HDMI with just the cable box and PS4.

If I do not get this to work (I am going to keep trying), could I have my Harmony Ultimate change the mode in the activity? It would probably be slow too huh?
I don't think it'd be practical to have the harmony turn game mode on/off. possible, but it's a lot of commands that need to be sent.

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post #41 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 03:04 PM
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I'm confused too, PC is pure native picture, now I understand if you calibrate the color space but I didn't. After calibrating black level brightness and contrast it seems I have the same picture as non PC mode. Am I Wrong?


also in my Samsung and Xbox I have it set to TV black level and HDMI Low and it looks the best. HDMI normal makes it looked washed out but low looks better but a little detail loss in shadows. Don't know which is better haha
yes, you basically lose the ability to calibrate the color. if your source allows you to do that, then it probably wouldn't matter.


but some of the extra processing actually does improve the image. the black optimizer for example, I think does a fantastic job, and I'd miss having it on if watching dark movies.


for gaming, either normal or low should be fine, but you have to adjust brightness/contrast for each one. for movies, you want to use the 16-235 range, which I believe is the 'normal' setting(but I tend to get those mixed up, so double check). I have mine set to the 'limited' values for movies and gaming and adjusted my brightness so that 'black' corresponds to 16. both movies and games look good, nothing is washed out, and I don't think I'm losing any details. BUT, I do turn up the brightness a couple ticks for gaming, because I prefer to see everything in the shadows, even if it's not the way it's intended. that's just a personal thing though

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post #42 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
yes, you basically lose the ability to calibrate the color. if your source allows you to do that, then it probably wouldn't matter.


but some of the extra processing actually does improve the image. the black optimizer for example, I think does a fantastic job, and I'd miss having it on if watching dark movies.


for gaming, either normal or low should be fine, but you have to adjust brightness/contrast for each one. for movies, you want to use the 16-235 range, which I believe is the 'normal' setting(but I tend to get those mixed up, so double check). I have mine set to the 'limited' values for movies and gaming and adjusted my brightness so that 'black' corresponds to 16. both movies and games look good, nothing is washed out, and I don't think I'm losing any details. BUT, I do turn up the brightness a couple ticks for gaming, because I prefer to see everything in the shadows, even if it's not the way it's intended. that's just a personal thing though
What is black optimizer? I usually turn off all settings anyways. I have the Samsung pn59d550
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I don't think it'd be practical to have the harmony turn game mode on/off. possible, but it's a lot of commands that need to be sent.
Ok. I have tried having everything off and unplugged, then turning all back on. Same thing.

I have tried plugging the xbox one into its own port on the TV and the TV had no problem with it.

I turned on the xbox 360 and the tv would not display anything when going through the receiver (with two HDMI)

It works fine with one .

PS4 works fine with two cables.
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post #44 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 08:01 PM
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What is black optimizer? I usually turn off all settings anyways. I have the Samsung pn59d550
I don't think it's available on the D series, I THINK it was a new feature on the F-series. I can't explain the details, it has something to do with the have the panel is driven, but the result is that it achieves lower MLL and makes dark images look much better. the downside is if you find content that quickly flips between bright and dark scenes, the change can be noticeable, and some ppl find it distracting. If you have any experience with projectors, it really reminds me of a dynamic iris. generally considered a good feature to have turned on, most of the time.

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post #45 of 55 Old 07-31-2014, 08:20 PM
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Ok. I have tried having everything off and unplugged, then turning all back on. Same thing.

I have tried plugging the xbox one into its own port on the TV and the TV had no problem with it.

I turned on the xbox 360 and the tv would not display anything when going through the receiver (with two HDMI)

It works fine with one .

PS4 works fine with two cables.
that's just a pain man, not sure what can be done.


I don't have an xboxone, but my 360 has not given me any issues through my powered HDMI splitter, which should be functioning the same way your receiver is.


there may be an issue with the way the receiver splits the HDMI signal, a powered splitter MIGHT fix this, but there's really no guarantee. it's hard to troubleshoot a problem like this, cause technically everything is hooked up properly.


I suppose you could hook up the ps4 and cable to the receiver, then output from the receiver to HDMI1(movie preset) and HDMI2(game mode), then hook up the xbox360 and xboxone to HDMI3 and HDMI4(both in game mode) and run the optical audio out from the tv to the receiver in. with this you should be able to:
-watch cable with best picture settings --> cable input on receiver, and HDMI1 on tv
-watch BD's on ps4 with best picture settings --> PS4 input on receiver and HDMI1 on tv
-play games on ps4 with game mode --> PS4 input on receiver and HDMI2 on tv
-play games on xboxone with game mode --> optical audio in on receiver and HDMI3 on tv
-play games on xbox 360 with game mode --> optical audio in on receiver and HDMI4 on tv


it's definitely more complicated, and you won't be able to easily use the xboxone for any media/BD playback with the 'best' video settings. so at this point, it might just be best to forget about pc mode, and calibrate in game mode and just run a single HDMI out from the receiver and watch everything in game mode. it's still giving you most of the calibration options, and you can get a fantastic picture out of it. if you really want to, for special occasions or whatever, you can always turn game mode off to watch a bluray. for cable and most video, it's probably not worth turning game mode off though.

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post #46 of 55 Old 08-01-2014, 04:24 AM
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that's just a pain man, not sure what can be done.


I don't have an xboxone, but my 360 has not given me any issues through my powered HDMI splitter, which should be functioning the same way your receiver is.


there may be an issue with the way the receiver splits the HDMI signal, a powered splitter MIGHT fix this, but there's really no guarantee. it's hard to troubleshoot a problem like this, cause technically everything is hooked up properly.


I suppose you could hook up the ps4 and cable to the receiver, then output from the receiver to HDMI1(movie preset) and HDMI2(game mode), then hook up the xbox360 and xboxone to HDMI3 and HDMI4(both in game mode) and run the optical audio out from the tv to the receiver in. with this you should be able to:
-watch cable with best picture settings --> cable input on receiver, and HDMI1 on tv
-watch BD's on ps4 with best picture settings --> PS4 input on receiver and HDMI1 on tv
-play games on ps4 with game mode --> PS4 input on receiver and HDMI2 on tv
-play games on xboxone with game mode --> optical audio in on receiver and HDMI3 on tv
-play games on xbox 360 with game mode --> optical audio in on receiver and HDMI4 on tv


it's definitely more complicated, and you won't be able to easily use the xboxone for any media/BD playback with the 'best' video settings. so at this point, it might just be best to forget about pc mode, and calibrate in game mode and just run a single HDMI out from the receiver and watch everything in game mode. it's still giving you most of the calibration options, and you can get a fantastic picture out of it. if you really want to, for special occasions or whatever, you can always turn game mode off to watch a bluray. for cable and most video, it's probably not worth turning game mode off though.

Right now I have it setup so everything goes through the receiver, and I have one HDMI connection to the TV.

Question is, if I configure movie to be the way I want, and flip to game, then back to movie, will it remember the configuration that I setup in both modes, for the same input?
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post #47 of 55 Old 08-02-2014, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ParityBit View Post
Right now I have it setup so everything goes through the receiver, and I have one HDMI connection to the TV.

Question is, if I configure movie to be the way I want, and flip to game, then back to movie, will it remember the configuration that I setup in both modes, for the same input?
yes, it will remember a calibration for 'normal', 'game', and 'pc' all independently on the input. once set up, you can flip between them without ever having to redo anything. I flipped between 'pc' and 'game mode' on my second input many times trying to decide which was better for me.

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post #48 of 55 Old 08-04-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
yes, it will remember a calibration for 'normal', 'game', and 'pc' all independently on the input. once set up, you can flip between them without ever having to redo anything. I flipped between 'pc' and 'game mode' on my second input many times trying to decide which was better for me.

I got it to work! I had to change the color to 30 bit on my xbox one. I have not tried my 360 yet.

What should I use for values on. My xbox and tv? My blacks are really crushed in the menu and KI .
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post #49 of 55 Old 08-04-2014, 05:35 PM
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Heres how for Black optimiser works for me...

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I had read the other day about someones problem with their D8000 plasma, and they posted some screenshots from Calman 5. It showed that in Calman if you only have 2 point settings use 30% and 80% to set the white balance, and if the TV has 10 point use 30% and 100%, and there was another option 30% and 109%.

I tried the 109% and it didn't work out well. I also tried 100% and at first that didn't work either, and was a lot brighter than I remembered (150cdm^2 when it used to be 120cdm^2). But then I realised that the black optimiser was set to [auto], which had carried over from broadcast tv.

So basically while black optimiser set to [dark room] seemingly does nothing, set to [auto] gives darker blacks and brighter whites.

The black level with black optimiser [off] or [dark room] was 0.009cdm^2 black, ANSI black was 0.015cdm^2, 100% white was 120cdm^2 and ANSI white at 75cdm^2.

With black optimiser set to [auto] black was 0.007cdm^2, ANSI black was 0.014cdm^2, 100% white was 147cdm^2 and ANSI white was 78cdm^2.

So... 120/0.009=13333 75/0.015=5000 black optimiser off/dark room
147/0.007=21000 78/0.014=5570 black optimiser auto

The only difference in greyscale was that 100% white is less accurate with the increased brightness but still <3 deltaE.

Secondly, the Flesh tone option does actually do something, it reduced errors in colorchecker. It made light skin, dark skin, orange, and orange yellow more accurate.
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post #50 of 55 Old 08-04-2014, 06:24 PM
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yes, it will remember a calibration for 'normal', 'game', and 'pc' all independently on the input. once set up, you can flip between them without ever having to redo anything. I flipped between 'pc' and 'game mode' on my second input many times trying to decide which was better for me.
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I got it to work! I had to change the color to 30 bit on my xbox one. I have not tried my 360 yet.

What should I use for values on. My xbox and tv? My blacks are really crushed in the menu and KI .
Okay it kinda works. Once I flip to FIOS and back, I lose the signal.... Ugh.
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post #51 of 55 Old 08-05-2014, 04:34 PM
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Okay it kinda works. Once I flip to FIOS and back, I lose the signal.... Ugh.
when the resolution for my desktop was slightly difference than the resolution for my media player on my HTPC, I would get dropped connections sometimes with my jvc projector. I finally figured out the exact right combination of resolution/framerate to match my media player and now it's pretty stable.


the only thing I can suggest, is try to match resolutions as much as possible. unfortunately, you're fios may not be 1080p/60 like I assume the xboxone is, perhaps when it changes resolution it causes some kind of handshake issue with the hdmi.


I have no idea what the output options are for the xboxone, but isn't 30bit color a 'weird' value? I thought it was usually 16bit or 32bit. anyway, I guess it's a bunch of trial and error to see what works best then. kinda sucks, but that's hdmi for ya

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #52 of 55 Old 08-05-2014, 10:52 PM
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I have no idea what the output options are for the xboxone, but isn't 30bit color a 'weird' value? I thought it was usually 16bit or 32bit. anyway, I guess it's a bunch of trial and error to see what works best then. kinda sucks, but that's hdmi for ya
30 bit usually means 10 bit per color (1024 levels)

In most computer systems "32 bit" equals 8 bit per color with padding
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post #53 of 55 Old 08-06-2014, 04:53 AM
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when the resolution for my desktop was slightly difference than the resolution for my media player on my HTPC, I would get dropped connections sometimes with my jvc projector. I finally figured out the exact right combination of resolution/framerate to match my media player and now it's pretty stable.


the only thing I can suggest, is try to match resolutions as much as possible. unfortunately, you're fios may not be 1080p/60 like I assume the xboxone is, perhaps when it changes resolution it causes some kind of handshake issue with the hdmi.


I have no idea what the output options are for the xboxone, but isn't 30bit color a 'weird' value? I thought it was usually 16bit or 32bit. anyway, I guess it's a bunch of trial and error to see what works best then. kinda sucks, but that's hdmi for ya

My only options for the settings is 24, 30 and 36. Granted, it really didn't work. I ordered new cables. Although I know it is not that I did it anyways.

I am going to try and put an HDMI switch between the Xbox and AVR to see if that helps anything. Goggle searches show that it may .... but I have pretty much given up hope at this point.
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post #54 of 55 Old 08-07-2014, 06:40 AM
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Heres how for Black optimiser works for me...
This is news to me. I thought I read elsewhere that auto just uses the ambient light sensor to decide which function to use. Lights on/daytime it would use "bright room", at night or lights off it would use "dark room".
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post #55 of 55 Old 08-07-2014, 09:07 AM
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This is news to me. I thought I read elsewhere that auto just uses the ambient light sensor to decide which function to use. Lights on/daytime it would use "bright room", at night or lights off it would use "dark room".
I don't have a meter to back this up, but to my eyes, there is NO difference between auto and dark room on mine(in a dark room), and a very noticeable difference between darkroom/auto and bright room/off


I find it hard to tell about brightness, since it's already too bright, but there is definitely no benefit in blacks between dark room and auto on mine. and a HUGE benefit to blacks between dark room and off

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
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