Uneven wear / white balance / logo burns on 65 inch Panasonic ZT60 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-11-2014, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Unhappy Uneven wear / white balance / logo burns on 65 inch Panasonic ZT60

My main current set is a 65 inch Panasonic ZT60 purchased from Cleveland Plasma in mid October 2013.

The set *has* been used pretty heavily over the past 10 months. I would say 12-16 hours a day. Quite a lot!

I have recently began to notice (and now *really* notice) that the white balance has become uneven. Mainly, the top left corner area of the screen looks too red (almost as if it were "creeping in"), as well as along the sides slightly. I've also noticed some logo burns that are NOT "simple" image retention. I even notice retention / burn where captions appear (I often use captions).

In putting up some test patterns, I've noticed that the majority of the trouble seems to be with the red phosphors, although it doesn't show up on my camera.

Here's some pictures. Again, the white balance from my camera varies, but it does show the upper left corner variation on the IRE pictures, especially the 70 and 90 IRE. Click the images for full size:

90 IRE



70 IRE



50 IRE



RED



GREEN



BLUE



Some background info:

Running latest firmware (2.873).

The set is plugged in to AC via an APC Line-R 1200VA Voltage Regulator.

Regular TV viewing is through a Crystalio II VPS3800 Scaler at standard 1080P, HDMI, and scaling settings.

Given the heavy use, I run the screen wipe for at least 1 hour a day, sometimes 2. (I wonder if maybe that's too much?)

I am trying to think, and I don't believe I watch any material where there is any kind of static image in the upper left, except for the web browser... however, wouldn't that result in a square shape, not the "creeping in" circular pattern I am seeing?

I only use two video modes:

For TV and Discs (which is the majority of my viewing), I use the set's own THX Cinema mode:

Quote:
Picture Mode: THX Cinema
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 0
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Color temp.: Warm1
Vivid Color: off
C.A.T.S. / Video NR / MPEG remaster / Resolution remaster / Caption smoother: Off
Brilliance enhancer: Strong
Motion smoother: Weak
=================
Advanced Picture:
Game mode: Off
1080p pure direct: On
HDMI Content Type / Auto Detail: Off
HDMI Range: Standard
Black Level: Light
================
Screen Settings:
Screen Format: Full
Overscan: Off
H Size: Size 1
Screen Display: On
4:3 side bars: Off
Pixel Orbiter: Auto
============
3D settings:
Auto Detect 3D: Auto 1
3D signal notification: Off
For the Internet, Browser, and Apps (I'd say about 25 - 30 % of the time), I use custom settings I pulled from the Internet; I can't remember where, it's either from D-Nice or CNET:

Quote:
Picture Mode: Cinema
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 0
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0
Color temp.: Warm1
Vivid Color: off
C.A.T.S. / Video NR / MPEG remaster / Resolution remaster / Caption smoother: Off
Brilliance enhancer: Strong
Motion smoother: Weak
=============
Pro settings:
Panel Brightness: Mid
AGC: 0
Black extension: 0
Color gamut: Rec. 709
W/B: High r = -4 / High G = 0 / High B = -2 / Low R = 3 / Low G = 0 / Low B = 0

More Detail: Red / Green / Blue Gain:
-------------------------------------
100 IRE 0:0:0 / 90 IRE -2:0:0 / 80 IRE -2:0:0 / 70 IRE -2:-1:0 / 60 IRE 0:0:0 / 50 IRE 2:0:0 / 40 IRE 0:0:-2 / 30 IRE 0:0:-1 / 20 IRE 0:0:0 / 10 IRE 0:0:0

Color Detail Adjustment:
------------------------
Red Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 0 / -4 / -5
Green Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 14 / 10 / 1
Blue Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 0 / 0 / -7
Cyan Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 5 / 0 / 2
Magenta Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 12 / 8 / -10
Yellow Hue / Saturation / Luminance: 5 / 0 / 3

Gamma Detail Adjustment:
------------------------
Gamma: 2.2
Input Signal Level: Gain:
-------------------------
100 IRE 0 / 90 IRE -2 / 80 IRE -2 / 70 IRE 0 / 60 IRE 0 / 50 IRE 0 / 40 IRE 0 / 30 IRE -8 / 20 IRE -8 / 10 IRE 0

=================
Advanced Picture:
Game mode: Off
================
Screen Settings:
Screen Display: On
Pixel Orbiter: On
============
3D settings:
Auto Detect 3D: Auto 1
I was hoping others with this same set (preferably with the 65 inch screen) can put up some 100% Red, Green, and Blue patterns, and check for similar wear.

The set is far from unwatchable or anything, but I was hoping to keep this set for at least 3 or more years, and I'm worried that it's going to get a lot worse.

The last time I remember having similar logo burns and unbalanced / off axis white balance was on my 7 year old Pioneer Pro 710 CRT!

My last set (the one this replaced) was the Panasonic TH-65PZ850U. It got the same heavy use as the ZT60 from September 2008 to October 2013 (five years), and it had some *slight* logo burn, but that's it. No noticeable white balance variation, and nothing as bad as this. That was the generation of Panasonic sets that had rising black levels, but since this was a 65 inch set, it wasn't that big a problem, even though the black levels were not nearly anywhere near a Kuro or a ZT60. The PZ850U was however an overall brighter set than the ZT60. (It used a lot more energy and weighed a lot more.)

My Dad has a Pioneer Kuro (KRP-500M), which *also* has had heavy use since November 2009. In fact, he keeps the cable box guide up for quite long periods sometimes, yet I really don't see any logo or other burn in at all on it. White balance still looks perfect all around. It *does* have the "blushing" or "red flushing" issue, which I have read is kind of common, although as I understand it, it's not a "burn" or uneven phosphor wear. It is annoying, but (barely) tolerable.

In conclusion, I'm trying to determine if what I am experiencing on my ZT60 is normal, given my circumstances and conditions, or if perhaps I might have a defective display (perhaps the software or hardware that drives the red phosphors is faulty?) and I might be able to get it repaired or replaced under the manufacturer's warranty.

In searching around the net I can't seem to find any threads anywhere from anyone who has experienced anything like this on a ZT60 series set... although, others may not have as heavy a use as me.

Are there perhaps some specialized screen savers or snow / wash patterns I should be running?

I'm not ready for a "plasma beating" AX900! :P
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:54 PM
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My god, I'm experiencing this EXACT same issue, and have been for the last few days.


Uneven white balance, a dirty screen effect, and a HIGH sensitivity to image retention (stuff up for only a few seconds remains on the screen).


I've called Panasonic, they sent someone out to replace the main board. It didn't do anything to help. Still waiting to see what's next.
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Old 10-20-2014, 05:09 PM
 
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^The IR sensitivity purportedly lets up at 3k hours and with it at least some of the discoloration and off-color white balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
I'm not ready for a "plasma beating" AX900! :P
Sidebar: Preliminarily speaking, this ended up being another fib.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by vultur View Post
^The IR sensitivity purportedly lets up at 3k hours and with it at least some of the discoloration and off-color white balance.

Sidebar: Preliminarily speaking, this ended up being another fib.
How could it have "ended up" being anything if you're speaking preliminarily?

Link / reference?
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:06 AM
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Grendell,
Not for nothing, but I was reading your post (dated 09/01/14) on the other thread, and now this thread. It appears to me that your photos showing white balance unevenness seems to be in the same area as the areas that generated the most heat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
(**Not the original message, but for some reason I couldn't copy the pics, but here is the link regardless)

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Last edited by dsskid; 10-21-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:09 AM
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Don't tell me I have to find a thermograph to prove the same issue on my TV.


I know it's next to a heat source (large window) and I do have the TV on a lot. So seeing Grendell's post leads me to believe I could be experiencing a similar issue if it is in fact the heat causing the white balance unevenness.


I do have a laser temperature monitor, however.


Grendell, how long would you keep the TV on in a typical viewing environment to take accurate temperature readings? Also, did you ever go to Panasonic? If so, what did they tell you?

Last edited by JJxiv1215; 10-21-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Oops, sorry, here are the thermographs:





On the very right hand side, after the set has been on for several hours, there is a purplish reddish splotch exactly where the hot spot is. It's extremely viewable if you put up say 70 IRE. If I power off, let the set cool, then power back on, the splotch is gone.

I did a "fan mod" and attached four exterior USB powered fans to the back of the set, blowing air in. It seems to have helped with some of the uneven color and definitely the splotch on the right hand side, but the upper left corner still looks a bit more reddish on white or grey (color neutral) screens.

The set seems to occasionally fire off a green flash, it used to do it very rarely, but it seems to do it more often since I attached the fans. Perhaps it's some kind of magnetic interference issue. Other people reported the green flash problem though and they didn't do any kind of "fan mod" as far as I know. Here is the problem for reference:



Here is the information I posted in the other thread on how I did my fan mod:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
I received the fans and hub and went ahead with my ZT60 exterior fan mod plan.

It was not as hard as I thought it would be. I could not really use screws so I had to use tape; hopefully this will be long lasting!

The mod appears to be a success as it has brought all temps below 100°F, and eliminated several hot spots. It is also removable so as to not permanently affect the set.

I used four fans; originally I had anticipated using three. They are connected to a USB hub which I have plugged in separately. The hub has a switch on it and sits right behind the set, so I can easily switch it on and off. Ideally, the fans would turn on and off automatically with the set, but I am not comfortable using the USB power from the set's ports. I have no problem turning the fans off and on... it might be a bigger deal for some people.

Equipment used:

4 x Thermaltake Mobilefan II 80mm External USB Case Fan
1 x Rosewill RHB-330 7 Ports USB 2.0 Hub with Power Adapter
2" x 36 yards 2 Mil Kapton Tape
3M Scotch 1/2-Inch by 36-Yard Double-Sided Foam Tape

This was my original plan:





This is what I ended up doing:





The four fans are all blowing air in, since the three stock fans in the top of the set are blowing are out. (I think the above pics are from a VT set since there is no fan in the top middle; the ZT60 definitely has a fan there.)

I removed the screws and nuts that came with the fans, and used standard PC fan screws to attach the logo grills to the side of the fans that take air in, and turned the fans' speed knob controllers around to face that side as well. The speed controller, if not hooked up, will result in the fans running at minimum speed. All four fans' speed controllers are set just above 3/4 of the way to maximum. Maximum is a bit too strong (and noisy) I feel.

I put a strip of the 3M double sided tape along all four edges of each fan, as well as two small strips in each fans' center. After attaching the fans and firmly pushing them in place, I put four strips of Kapton tape around the outside of each fan's border, half attached to the fan and half attached to the set. I put additional Kapton tape where needed to close any grill openings left around each fan. (Only grills with fans... I of course did not close any grills where there were no fans!)

Results:


Here are the original thermographs after the set has been on for 8+ hours without the 4 fan mod (at closer distances these temperature readings increase to ~120°F in the hottest areas):







Here are updated thermographs after the set has been on for 8+ hours with the 4 fan mod (all temp readings stay below 100°F even at close readings):







I'm not sure if this will improve some of the issues I'm experiencing; time will tell. As I mentioned, the fans can be easily removed.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
How could it have "ended up" being anything if you're speaking preliminarily?

Link / reference?
Check the LCD forum for the early impression. It doesn't even match the ZT60 in black levels...it's a nonstarter. OLED or bust as far as I'm concerned.

The intermittent green flash could point to an impending board failure. I never saw it on mine.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:55 AM
 
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Link to the AX900 comparison as requested: Panasonic TC-65AX900—a Revolutionary LED-LCD UHDTV
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:00 PM
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If indeed this is a poor design issue, if after exposure to high temps causes the blotching, and Panasonic doesn't have a fix, this could turn out into a large class action suit.

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Old 10-21-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vultur View Post
Link to the AX900 comparison as requested: Panasonic TC-65AX900—a Revolutionary LED-LCD UHDTV
You just linked the main thread. Not sure what you're trying to show?

I already read that thread. It seems the majority of people have nothing but good things to say about the AX900. The comparison pictures clearly show very promising results for the AX900.

I will never understand the kind of negativity people show over equipment they haven't even seen hands on.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:31 PM
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Looks nice, prices will come down.

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Old 10-21-2014, 12:47 PM
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My Panny was only an ST60 but I sold it due to similar issues. Starting at around 600 hours on the panel and it couldn't do a uniform white screen anymore... was pink in the center. Seemed associated with ABL kicking in as test patterns with smaller areas of peak brightness DID display white properly.

Just chiming in because this is the first I've seen of anyone else posting about uniformity issues on a Panny.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
You just linked the main thread. Not sure what you're trying to show?

I already read that thread. It seems the majority of people have nothing but good things to say about the AX900. The comparison pictures clearly show very promising results for the AX900.

I will never understand the kind of negativity people show over equipment they haven't even seen hands on.
I think most videophile purists agree that the basis for any quality display are the black levels. Since the AX900 was measured as having higher black levels than the ZT, this is why he called it a non-starter.

I would have to agree at this point, the next logical step if you're coming from a Kuro/ZT/8500 is OLED.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:24 PM
 
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Pdogg gets it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendell View Post
You just linked the main thread. Not sure what you're trying to show?

I already read that thread. It seems the majority of people have nothing but good things to say about the AX900. The comparison pictures clearly show very promising results for the AX900.

I will never understand the kind of negativity people show over equipment they haven't even seen hands on.
This quote from the presentation:
Quote:
Even if the ZT60 and the Sony OLED beat the AX900 in the deepest-blacks category, the AX900 is (at least) in the same league as those TVs.
I am accustomed to OLED blacks now...but just need a size to match. The AX900 is not it as you've been waxing poetic for a few months now. As impressive as it is, the ZT60 still leaves a bit to be desired in a dark room with low APL content...and the AX900 won't be any better in such an environment.

This is not negativism, just realism.
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Old 10-21-2014, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Black levels are important, but I guess I am one of those people who doesn't see the absolute end black level measurement as the end all be all purchase making decision on a HDTV.
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Old 10-21-2014, 05:16 PM
 
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Me neither, until I got a Kuro. Despite all the hoopla over perfect color or perfect motion resolution, an undefined contrast ratio makes for the most striking visual experience.
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Old 10-21-2014, 05:25 PM
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Just chiming in here as a fellow Panasonic Plasma owner.

I have an ST30, which is obviously quite different to a ZT60, but I have all the same issues.

I have over 14,000 hours on my set and IR is seriously bad, so it doesn't get better with age!
I can have an image up for 1 second and it remains on screen. I also have an uniform display, "dirty" screen and green and pink blobs!

None of these problems have changed over the 14 thousand hours I've put on the screen.
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Old 10-21-2014, 05:48 PM
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Hey, lawyer, lawyer. Sue! Sue, lawyer!


The IR issues with the VT60 & ZT60 are certainly disappointing.


I'm trying like hell to baby my "new" VT60. I had my first real IR encounter after watching Monday Night Football last night, and they actually seem to do a decent job of not displaying an overwhelming amount of static content.

I'm confident that this is temporary, but I can't help but wonder how easy it would be to permanently burn the panel.
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B T C View Post
Hey, lawyer, lawyer. Sue! Sue, lawyer!


The IR issues with the VT60 & ZT60 are certainly disappointing.


I'm trying like hell to baby my "new" VT60. I had my first real IR encounter after watching Monday Night Football last night, and they actually seem to do a decent job of not displaying an overwhelming amount of static content.

I'm confident that this is temporary, but I can't help but wonder how easy it would be to permanently burn the panel.
I had IR from the Fox Sports logo prominently displayed during baseball season, It is gone now, really stopped watching consistenly in August. I watch alot of sports both NFL and College and havent noticed any IR at all. 4400 hours on my set.

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Old 10-22-2014, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I had IR from the Fox Sports logo prominently displayed during baseball season, It is gone now, really stopped watching consistenly in August. I watch alot of sports both NFL and College and havent noticed any IR at all. 4400 hours on my set.
The new VT60 I referenced earlier is a 65" that was listed here in the classifieds. It had zero hours on it when I purchased it, and has just over 200 now. I was a bit bummed when I noticed the retention from Monday Night Football. As I mentioned earlier, I'm being super careful with it.

I also have a 55" VT60 that I bought earlier in the summer. For whatever reason, and perhaps it's the number of hours on the set, but it seems much more susceptible to IR in comparison to the 65". It was a "lightly" used demo at a friend's small electronics store in my hometown. At the time I purchased it, I had no idea to check for IR on these things. I just assumed all was good, I was purchasing from a friend etc. It had around 1,000 hours on it when I bought it, and now has around 1700-1800. Most of the hours I've put on it have been in an attempt to get rid of what appears to be an NBC logo in the lower right corner of the screen. It's very minor IR in comparison to what I've seen on some floor model ZT60's in this area, but I'm not convinced it is ever going to go away completely. I believe it has gotten better from when I first noticed it, but it's still there. It's not noticeable under 95+% of viewing conditions, but if it's a light image, and you know to look for it, you can see it. It bugs the &hit out of me.
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