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post #1 of 29 Old 08-13-2014, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Sub-$800 plasma for living room

Hello folks.

In the market for a new plasma TV in the sub-$800 range.

This TV will be in the living room. We have blinds and a patio that shades direct sunlight coming in, so it's partially light controlled. LED is *NOT* an option. My wife and I can't stand the viewing angles, and the Soap Opera Effect - even on the sets with options to 'eliminate' it. We have always had plasma's and that won't change until they stop making them or OLED proves it's better. I'm looking for the brightest set of the bunch below and can't find them all in a store near me.

Would appreciate any advice.

LG 60PB6900
LG 60PB6600/6650
Samsung PN60F5300

This TV is replacing a 7-year old Samsung 50" 5054 that will be moved to another room.

Also would be curious to know if the LG's have the buzzing that Samsung plasma's seem to have now.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 29 Old 08-13-2014, 05:06 PM
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Plasma production has been ceased, sadly. LG & Samsung are the only manufacturers left producing them and Samsung just announced they are pulling the plug on them as well. Out of the 3 , I would go with Samsung, I don't have much knowledge on LG plasmas. Otherwise Panasonic was king of plasmas.

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post #3 of 29 Old 08-13-2014, 05:21 PM
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I have a Samsung PN60F5300, so I can only speak for that. I'm very happy with it. If your viewing from over 8 feet the Pentile display is fine, too.
Samsung PN60F5300
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post #4 of 29 Old 08-13-2014, 10:44 PM
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5-series Samsung is the best option in that price range.


unfortunately the only option that's really going to be a significant improvement is the f8500, but it's quite a ways out of budget. I would however suggest you seriously consider this as a long term investment, and think about moving up to the 64" model if it fits. it's a touch outside your budget, but should provide you more years of use(since you won't be tempted to upgrade to a larger model as soon) and it avoids the awkward pentile display that could be an issue depending on your use.


for what it's worth, your 7yr old Samsung was probably also a 'buzzer'. it's nothing new. I remember reading the reviews when I bought my first Samsung plasma 5-6yrs ago(b530) and after hearing all the complaints about buzzing samsungs I went out of my way to detect it on mine. at the end of the day, I truly believe it's about the viewer and the room more than it is the tv. they've 'buzzed' forever, so if you don't notice it with your current one, I assume you'll be fine with a new one.
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post #5 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by boscoh View Post
Hello folks.

In the market for a new plasma TV in the sub-$800 range.

This TV will be in the living room. We have blinds and a patio that shades direct sunlight coming in, so it's partially light controlled. LED is *NOT* an option. My wife and I can't stand the viewing angles, and the Soap Opera Effect - even on the sets with options to 'eliminate' it. We have always had plasma's and that won't change until they stop making them or OLED proves it's better. I'm looking for the brightest set of the bunch below and can't find them all in a store near me.

Would appreciate any advice.

LG 60PB6900
LG 60PB6600/6650
Samsung PN60F5300

This TV is replacing a 7-year old Samsung 50" 5054 that will be moved to another room.

Also would be curious to know if the LG's have the buzzing that Samsung plasma's seem to have now.

Thanks!
Okay, so I can speak to the LG as I own one. The biggest different between the 6900 and 6600/6650 is 3d. Otherwise, I believe they are identical. The difference between the 6600/6650 is the 50 has built in wifi, the 00 requires a dongle, which is provided at no charge. So, that speaks to the differences there. Based on what you want for price, the 6900 is going to be just out of reach, usually selling in the $900 range.

So, not between the F5300 & LG6600/6650

2 HDMI vs 3 HDMI
Non-Smart vs Smart
Pentile vs Full 1080p

Those are the biggest differences. As for pq, the 5300 is going to have better blacks. The LG is going to have better color and saturation. Shadow detail is pretty close. They are both really reflective, especially in off angle view with light. In the dark, both are awesome. The biggest thing is the F5300 is know to have a pink tint issue. Does not seem to be an LG issue.

As far as I can tell, there is little to no buzz on the LG. Both will get warm as they are plasma.

Finally, price. You can get the LG for as little as $599 at Microcenter. I think you find the F5300 for around $700 at sears or Costco (5350). Really, the best thing is to try to see them side by side and let you eyes judge. I prefer the LG to the Samsung. I had a Samsung D550 and my new LG has just as good as picture.

Hope that helps.
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post #6 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dmtaub View Post
The LG is going to have better color and saturation.
I keep seeing this comment on the LG thread but I don't really understand where it is coming from unless people are eyeballing artificially saturated presets on the LG and thinking it has better color saturation? This is the result from calibration on the Samsung. As you can see, excellent color saturation and accuracy. Perhaps the LG is equally good, but I don't see it being any better really.


Btw, do you know if the LG has a single glass pane bonded to the plasma panel or whether it consists of 2 glass panels? I'm just curious about that as my older Panasonic had 2 glass panes.
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post #7 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I keep seeing this comment on the LG thread but I don't really understand where it is coming from unless people are eyeballing artificially saturated presets on the LG and thinking it has better color saturation? This is the result from calibration on the Samsung. As you can see, excellent color saturation and accuracy. Perhaps the LG is equally good, but I don't see it being any better really.


Btw, do you know if the LG has a single glass pane bonded to the plasma panel or whether it consists of 2 glass panels? I'm just curious about that as my older Panasonic had 2 glass panes.
Actually, I'm pulling this from most reviews. LG's panels are basically the same across models, except for adding 3d. So, using the review of the PH6700, which is the same panel as the 6600, sans 3d, here is what David K from cnet wrote:

shadow detail and color performance are excellent;

Traditionally, LG's products have lagged behind competitors' in terms of black levels but have had very good shadow detail, and the trend continues with the PH6700. Its outright blacks can't compete with Panasonic's or even Samsung's but its shadow detail was undoubtedly the best.

Meanwhile color was very good, with rich saturation and natural tones. As a plasma lacking a louver filter, the television doesn't perform very well in a lit room, and you may need to investigate some form of light control.

So, I'm going to say that it is probably as good as the Samsung or slightly better. However, the blacks are not as good. So, at that point it comes down to personal preference. I have the LG6600 in my living room and an S60 in my bedroom. The S60 is a phenomenal picture, but it looks muted. The LG is more vibrant, but lacks some of the detail the S60 can produce. So, both are good pictures, and for what I paid for each set, I'm quite happy!
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post #8 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Btw, do you know if the LG has a single glass pane bonded to the plasma panel or whether it consists of 2 glass panels? I'm just curious about that as my older Panasonic had 2 glass panes.
There is a glass pane bonded directly to the panel, and then it sits behind another glass pane, if that is what you meant.
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post #9 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dmtaub View Post
Actually, I'm pulling this from most reviews. LG's panels are basically the same across models, except for adding 3d. So, using the review of the PH6700, which is the same panel as the 6600, sans 3d, here is what David K from cnet wrote:

shadow detail and color performance are excellent;

Traditionally, LG's products have lagged behind competitors' in terms of black levels but have had very good shadow detail, and the trend continues with the PH6700. Its outright blacks can't compete with Panasonic's or even Samsung's but its shadow detail was undoubtedly the best.

Meanwhile color was very good, with rich saturation and natural tones. As a plasma lacking a louver filter, the television doesn't perform very well in a lit room, and you may need to investigate some form of light control.

So, I'm going to say that it is probably as good as the Samsung or slightly better. However, the blacks are not as good. So, at that point it comes down to personal preference. I have the LG6600 in my living room and an S60 in my bedroom. The S60 is a phenomenal picture, but it looks muted. The LG is more vibrant, but lacks some of the detail the S60 can produce. So, both are good pictures, and for what I paid for each set, I'm quite happy!
there's nothing in that review that would suggest the color reproduction is better than any other brand. it simply states it's good.


I think it's been accepted for a while that the LG's simply don't have deep blacks. that's really the only downside to the LG's.
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post #10 of 29 Old 08-14-2014, 08:31 PM
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Another vote for Samsung PN60F5300 it works well here better than new Sony LED here also !

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post #11 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dmtaub View Post
There is a glass pane bonded directly to the panel, and then it sits behind another glass pane, if that is what you meant.
Interesting. I'd hazard a guess that the LG is likely to have a bit more glare in that case. The Samsung panels have a single glass pane for both the screen and panel, which reduces reflection to a noticeable extent compared to my old Panny that has 2 panes as you described.
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post #12 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Interesting. I'd hazard a guess that the LG is likely to have a bit more glare in that case. The Samsung panels have a single glass pane for both the screen and panel, which reduces reflection to a noticeable extent compared to my old Panny that has 2 panes as you described.
Yup, LG is doubled paned like the older models. It's definitely not as clear as the Samsung because of it, and causes double images from the extreme side angles.
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post #13 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Interesting. I'd hazard a guess that the LG is likely to have a bit more glare in that case. The Samsung panels have a single glass pane for both the screen and panel, which reduces reflection to a noticeable extent compared to my old Panny that has 2 panes as you described.
yeah, it is really reflective, especially in off angle. I can get through it, except on dark scenes during the day (if I watch a movie). Most normal daytime viewing it is not a problem (sports, news, hgtv, diy, etc)
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post #14 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 11:33 AM
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there's nothing in that review that would suggest the color reproduction is better than any other brand. it simply states it's good.


I think it's been accepted for a while that the LG's simply don't have deep blacks. that's really the only downside to the LG's.
Fierge_gt and orion2001: If you look at the numbers from the CNET calibration results, the LG Plasma score better for the color error metrics than the Samsung and Panasonic Plasmas. Check their Samsung F5500 and Panasonic S60 reviews. (The F5500 scored poorly for Red Error and the reviewer noted crushed blacks.) The LG scored good in all of these categories which even the F8500 and ZT60 did not manage.

LG haven't improved black levels since 2010. The PDP60R1 to PDP60R5 (The 2014 models all use the PDP60R6 panel) have black luminance around 0.011 fL to 0.013 fL while the Samsung and Panasonics are in the 0.002 fL to 0.005 fL range.
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post #15 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by boscoh View Post
Hello folks.

In the market for a new plasma TV in the sub-$800 range.

This TV will be in the living room. We have blinds and a patio that shades direct sunlight coming in, so it's partially light controlled. LED is *NOT* an option. My wife and I can't stand the viewing angles, and the Soap Opera Effect - even on the sets with options to 'eliminate' it. We have always had plasma's and that won't change until they stop making them or OLED proves it's better. I'm looking for the brightest set of the bunch below and can't find them all in a store near me.

Would appreciate any advice.

LG 60PB6900
LG 60PB6600/6650
Samsung PN60F5300

This TV is replacing a 7-year old Samsung 50" 5054 that will be moved to another room.

Also would be curious to know if the LG's have the buzzing that Samsung plasma's seem to have now.

Thanks!
Just an FYI, but Frys just dropped the price of the 6900 to $699. That is a freakin' steal for a Smart 3d Plasma. I would go with that one.
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post #16 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Matrix7 View Post
Fierge_gt and orion2001: If you look at the numbers from the CNET calibration results, the LG Plasma score better for the color error metrics than the Samsung and Panasonic Plasmas. Check their Samsung F5500 and Panasonic S60 reviews. (The F5500 scored poorly for Red Error and the reviewer noted crushed blacks.) The LG scored good in all of these categories which even the F8500 and ZT60 did not manage.

LG haven't improved black levels since 2010. The PDP60R1 to PDP60R5 (The 2014 models all use the PDP60R6 panel) have black luminance around 0.011 fL to 0.013 fL while the Samsung and Panasonics are in the 0.002 fL to 0.005 fL range.
What's the point of a plasma without good blacks? Although .013 wold be very good for an LCD
one of my LCD does .008 . I don't know what my 5xxx Sammie plasma is but it seems decent and you can fix the red push .

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post #17 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 01:06 PM
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What's the point of a plasma without good blacks? Although .013 wold be very good for an LCD
one of my LCD does .008 . I don't know what my 5xxx Sammie plasma is but it seems decent and you can fix the red push .
The blacks can be fixed on the LGs to get them down to 0.0035-0.005 fL as well. (The 5300/5500 are 0.004-0.005 fL.) Blacks on a LCD (IPS/VA) are obtained through turning off or dimming the back-light. Even my phone's LCD has better blacks with automatic brightness enabled, but this also makes the whites look mid-gray and the blacks are pretty bad off-angle. My Vita (Samsung AMOLED) is the most impressive display I have (For contrast ratio/black levels). The only minor note is that the colors (towards blue), contrast ratio and black level shift a bit with the viewing angle. The LG OLED TV reviews also note this happening.
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post #18 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Matrix7 View Post
Fierge_gt and orion2001: If you look at the numbers from the CNET calibration results, the LG Plasma score better for the color error metrics than the Samsung and Panasonic Plasmas. Check their Samsung F5500 and Panasonic S60 reviews. (The F5500 scored poorly for Red Error and the reviewer noted crushed blacks.) The LG scored good in all of these categories which even the F8500 and ZT60 did not manage.

LG haven't improved black levels since 2010. The PDP60R1 to PDP60R5 (The 2014 models all use the PDP60R6 panel) have black luminance around 0.011 fL to 0.013 fL while the Samsung and Panasonics are in the 0.002 fL to 0.005 fL range.
ok


probably should have posted that to begin with then

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post #19 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 01:09 PM
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the LG 60" 6900 can be bought this week at Fry's electronics for $699...free shipping


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post #20 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 02:00 PM
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The blacks can be fixed on the LGs to get them down to 0.0035-0.005 fL as well. (The 5300/5500 are 0.004-0.005 fL.) Blacks on a LCD (IPS/VA) are obtained through turning off or dimming the back-light. Even my phone's LCD has better blacks with automatic brightness enabled, but this also makes the whites look mid-gray and the blacks are pretty bad off-angle. My Vita (Samsung AMOLED) is the most impressive display I have (For contrast ratio/black levels). The only minor note is that the colors (towards blue), contrast ratio and black level shift a bit with the viewing angle. The LG OLED TV reviews also note this happening.
So can they on the 5300. Mine is currently measuring 0.002fL with Cinema Smooth on. Let's agree that in general the Samsungs have better black levels. Voltage modifications can lower black levels but a very small fraction of people are going to do that. Even if you do, an apples to apples comparison will still have Samsung with the advantage.

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Originally Posted by Matrix7 View Post
Fierge_gt and orion2001: If you look at the numbers from the CNET calibration results, the LG Plasma score better for the color error metrics than the Samsung and Panasonic Plasmas. Check their Samsung F5500 and Panasonic S60 reviews. (The F5500 scored poorly for Red Error and the reviewer noted crushed blacks.) The LG scored good in all of these categories which even the F8500 and ZT60 did not manage.

LG haven't improved black levels since 2010. The PDP60R1 to PDP60R5 (The 2014 models all use the PDP60R6 panel) have black luminance around 0.011 fL to 0.013 fL while the Samsung and Panasonics are in the 0.002 fL to 0.005 fL range.
There are a number of issues with both the calibration CNET did and your comparison. Firstly, I wouldn't compare the F5500 result since the CNET forum post detailing his calibration explicitly states that the TV had no CMS control so that hampered the calibration. So obviously the color results would not look good. The F5300 however does in fact have a very robust and capable CMS system along with 10pt whitebalance, with all controls working independently of each other and as one would expect.

The other big issue with CNET and many other calibrations is that people calibrate the 100% saturation targets and call it a day. This in reality is a pretty terrible idea since hardly any colors in most videos are being displayed at 100% saturation. What you care about, is color accuracy in the 25-75% saturation range. Even though CALMAN allows you to do saturation sweeps, hardly any of these commercial sites actually do them. Let's look at my calibration result with the PN60F5300 again:



The colors line up almost perfectly in the 25-75% range. My measured dE values are typically <0.5 for most colors. I intentionally traded off accuracy at the 100% targets by a small amount so as to better hit the 25-75% targets. Cnet's calibrations don't provide you with any meaningful information on how well the set actually tracks colors at meaningful saturation levels.

Thirdly, after looking at David's calibration results and notes on the PH6700, the PNF5500 and the PNF8500, I'm quite convinced that he either does a shoddy/rushed jobs with his calibrations, or he doesn't have a great grasp of the process in general. Points in support of this are: 1) His post calibration Color Luminance chart for the LG set looks worse than prior to calibration despite having a CMS to play with, 2) He somehow managed to have issues getting a uniform <2 dE gamma tracking on the F8500 with 2 and 10pt white balance controls available. Not sure how he managed this. 3) His overall Gamma curves for all 3 sets look absolutely atrocious for sets that have 10pt white balance controls. While he gets the average value to line up to a reasonable number, the deviation for different gray levels is MASSIVE! It clearly illustrates that he places little to no effort in matching luminance targets for a target gamma and simply gets dE numbers down by targeting neutral shades of gray for each gray level. Whether this is in the interest of time or ignorance on his part is open to interpretation.

On the other hand, you can see just how accurately I could tweak the gray scale to match BT.1886 gamma on my PN60F5300 below. Most dE < 0.5, All <1.0:




So I really wouldn't use his measurements on a clearly non-optimal calibration on all 3 sets to then conclusively conclude that one is better than the other with color accuracy. The truth is that if any TV has a decent CMS and no glaring issues in its color reproduction, a capable calibrator should be able to get the colors quite accurate.

Finally, something that I think is important to this discussion... let's look at how atrocious the out of box white balance was on the CNET LG set:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/159193264/...ibration-notes

Compare with how much better it is in Movie mode on both Samsungs:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/138753957/...ration-results
http://www.scribd.com/doc/155390625/...bration-report

So, if we base conclusions solely off CNET's results and a single datapoint, and if you don't have a meter or plan on buying one, you are far better off getting a Samsung. At least from the 3-4 folks with meters who have measured the PN60f5300 sets here on the forums, all of their measurements show that the out of box Movie mode measurements are quite good. For someone with the LG set, you'd either hope that all sets have the same drastic inaccuracy and that simply adjusting using Cnet settings will get you an accurate picture, or you will need to invest in a meter.

In either case, I really would not use a blurb from a CNET review to justify the position that the Samsung sets are inferior to the LGs when it comes to color accuracy.

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Hello folks.

In the market for a new plasma TV in the sub-$800 range.

This TV will be in the living room. We have blinds and a patio that shades direct sunlight coming in, so it's partially light controlled. LED is *NOT* an option. My wife and I can't stand the viewing angles, and the Soap Opera Effect - even on the sets with options to 'eliminate' it. We have always had plasma's and that won't change until they stop making them or OLED proves it's better. I'm looking for the brightest set of the bunch below and can't find them all in a store near me.

Would appreciate any advice.

LG 60PB6900
LG 60PB6600/6650
Samsung PN60F5300

This TV is replacing a 7-year old Samsung 50" 5054 that will be moved to another room.

Also would be curious to know if the LG's have the buzzing that Samsung plasma's seem to have now.

Thanks!
I have had the 60PB6600 for a couple of weeks and I have not heard it buzz. The TV is bright enough with the room lights on, in the evening (a couple of hours before sunset) or on overcast days. In the sun, the the main problem are the reflections, but the set can still be made watchable by playing with the settings.

The LG Plasmas also have the Soap Opera Effect setting which can be turned off. :P
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post #22 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 02:13 PM
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I don't think anyone is justifying a position. There are generalities that associated with the statements. As it has been stated before, "panel lottery" with both Samsung and LG plasmas. My point is that Samsung's typically have better blacks than LG, while the high marks for LG are color saturation and shadow detail. How they make this with poor black levels, I'm not sure. However, if I am comparing an F5300 to a PB6600, which I did in store, not calibrated, and by my eye, they are both excellent budget plasmas. Can one be calibrated better than the other? Probably. Am I regretting purchasing the 6600 over the 5300? Absolutely not. I have Smart functions, which actually have come in handy, wifi, and extra HDMI, a picture that I enjoy watching, and I saved $150. And when it really comes down to it, isn't that what a tv is meant for? Watching a picture you enjoy.
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post #23 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 02:22 PM
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I don't think anyone is justifying a position. There are generalities that associated with the statements. As it has been stated before, "panel lottery" with both Samsung and LG plasmas. My point is that Samsung's typically have better blacks than LG, while the high marks for LG are color saturation and shadow detail. How they make this with poor black levels, I'm not sure. However, if I am comparing an F5300 to a PB6600, which I did in store, not calibrated, and by my eye, they are both excellent budget plasmas. Can one be calibrated better than the other? Probably. Am I regretting purchasing the 6600 over the 5300? Absolutely not. I have Smart functions, which actually have come in handy, wifi, and extra HDMI, a picture that I enjoy watching, and I saved $150. And when it really comes down to it, isn't that what a tv is meant for? Watching a picture you enjoy.
I don't intend to come off as someone trying to flame the LG set. I just completely disagree with the characterization (that I've seen thrown around here on the forums several times) that somehow the LG is more accurate with colors compared to the Samsung when there isn't really any grounds for that statement.

Either we compare uncalibrated, out of the box, Movie mode settings on both sets, in which case the CNET results make the LG look quite terrible with regards to default white balance. Or we look at the capabilities of the sets post calibration assuming it's been calibrated (and accounting for panel variations). My position all along has been that with calibration, I would assume both sets to be close enough to getting acceptably accurate, but I doubt one could claim one being more accurate than the other post calibration.

Pre calibration, it's hard to say. I do know from the PNF5300 forum threads, that several members have measured out of box PQ of Movie mode on the sets and they have looked quite good (with slightly undersaturated colors in the 25-75% range) with pretty decent white balance. Hard to say about the LG because it doesn't look like anyone has posted results from their meters here on the forums, and the Cnet datapoint doesn't look promising from an out of box perspective.

I think they are both great sets. For a no-frills, "dumb" TV, I'd personally lean towards the Samsung but as you said, there should be no reason to second guess your purchase whichever way you go.
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I don't intend to come off as someone trying to flame the LG set. I just completely disagree with the characterization (that I've seen thrown around here on the forums several times) that somehow the LG is more accurate with colors compared to the Samsung when there isn't really any grounds for that statement.

Either we compare uncalibrated, out of the box, Movie mode settings on both sets, in which case the CNET results make the LG look quite terrible with regards to default white balance. Or we look at the capabilities of the sets post calibration assuming it's been calibrated (and accounting for panel variations). My position all along has been that with calibration, I would assume both sets to be close enough to getting acceptably accurate, but I doubt one could claim one being more accurate than the other post calibration.

Pre calibration, it's hard to say. I do know from the PNF5300 forum threads, that several members have measured out of box PQ of Movie mode on the sets and they have looked quite good (with slightly undersaturated colors in the 25-75% range) with pretty decent white balance. Hard to say about the LG because it doesn't look like anyone has posted results from their meters here on the forums, and the Cnet datapoint doesn't look promising from an out of box perspective.

I think they are both great sets. For a no-frills, "dumb" TV, I'd personally lean towards the Samsung but as you said, there should be no reason to second guess your purchase whichever way you go.
I agree that you can't really go wrong with either TV. I wish that Consumer Reports went into more detail with their reviews with actual numbers. (Their reviews state that the F5300 and 60PB6600 both have excellent image quality.) However, you can get their calibration settings (if you don't have a meter) for the 60PB6600 if you have access to a membership.
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post #25 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 02:44 PM
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I agree that you can't really go wrong with either TV. I wish that Consumer Reports went into more detail with their reviews with actual numbers. (Their reviews state that the F5300 and 60PB6600 both have excellent image quality.) However, you can get their calibration settings (if you don't have a meter) for the 60PB6600 if you have access to a membership.
Given the quality of their calibrations, and the fact that shared settings online are rarely ever going to get you a calibrated display, paying Cnet for a membership seems like a bad deal. Shared settings are fine to try since it is a reversible process but they are unlikely to significantly improve PQ unless the panels all have some known and consistent bias (like if all the LG panels had a green push). Most times though, using a basic calibration pattern to get brightness/contrast right while keeping the rest of the settings at stock levels can provide great results.
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post #26 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 02:48 PM
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So can they on the 5300. Mine is currently measuring 0.002fL with Cinema Smooth on. Let's agree that in general the Samsungs have better black levels. Voltage modifications can lower black levels but a very small fraction of people are going to do that. Even if you do, an apples to apples comparison will still have Samsung with the advantage.




The other big issue with CNET and many other calibrations is that people calibrate the 100% saturation targets and call it a day. This in reality is a pretty terrible idea since hardly any colors in most videos are being displayed at 100% saturation. What you care about, is color accuracy in the 25-75% saturation range. Even though CALMAN allows you to do saturation sweeps, hardly any of these commercial sites actually do them. L

Thirdly, after looking at David's calibration results and notes on the PH6700, the PNF5500 and the PNF8500, I'm quite convinced that he either does a shoddy/rushed jobs with his calibrations, or he doesn't have a great grasp of the process in general. His overall Gamma curves for all 3 sets look absolutely atrocious for sets that have 10pt white balance controls. While he gets the average value to line up to a reasonable number, the deviation for different gray levels is MASSIVE! It clearly illustrates that he places little to no effort in matching luminance targets for a target gamma and simply gets dE numbers down by targeting neutral shades of gray for each gray level. Whether this is in the interest of time or ignorance on his part is open to interpretation.

On the other hand, you can see just how accurately I could tweak the gray scale to match BT.1886 gamma on my PN60F5300 below. Most dE < 0.5, All <1.0:

See images in post 20 above

So I really wouldn't use his measurements on a clearly non-optimal calibration on all 3 sets to then conclusively conclude that one is better than the other with color accuracy. The truth is that if any TV has a decent CMS and no glaring issues in its color reproduction, a capable calibrator should be able to get the colors quite accurate.

Finally, something that I think is important to this discussion... let's look at how atrocious the out of box white balance was on the CNET LG set:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/159193264/...ibration-notes

Compare with how much better it is in Movie mode on both Samsungs:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/138753957/...ration-results
http://www.scribd.com/doc/155390625/...bration-report

So, if we base conclusions solely off CNET's results and a single datapoint, and if you don't have a meter or plan on buying one, you are far better off getting a Samsung. At least from the 3-4 folks with meters who have measured the PN60f5300 sets here on the forums, all of their measurements show that the out of box Movie mode measurements are quite good. For someone with the LG set, you'd either hope that all sets have the same drastic inaccuracy and that simply adjusting using Cnet settings will get you an accurate picture, or you will need to invest in a meter.
I never use 100% color when simply adjusting or otherwise either found out the hard way ☺☺.

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In either case, I really would not use a blurb from a CNET review to justify the position that the Samsung sets are inferior to the LGs when it comes to color accuracy.
Cnet IMO missed the boat on My Sammy PN60f5300 and Toshiba CCFL as well so naturally their evaluations were somewhat off IMO and may contradict some possibly better sites frequently on other sets as well. RTings .com is way better IMO. particularly the analysis ,comparisons and functionality there .

I don't take Cnet seriously for anything anymore they are trying to be Consumer reports and doing a rather poor job of it even with washing machines now IMO e.g, their automotive reviews (and many others ) are without much of any substance and offer little useful information ,sadly the TV section as bad as it is sometimes is one of the better sections there !

Agree on line or shared settings are at best only a starting point if you don't intend to calibrate or have a calibration done and will not always yield that good of a result . None of my sets are set to anything close to C nets recommendations.
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post #27 of 29 Old 08-15-2014, 03:22 PM
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What's the point of a plasma without good blacks? Although .013 wold be very good for an LCD
one of my LCD does .008 . I don't know what my 5xxx Sammie plasma is but it seems decent and you can fix the red push .
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The blacks can be fixed on the LGs to get them down to 0.0035-0.005 fL as well. (The 5300/5500 are 0.004-0.005 fL.) Blacks on a LCD (IPS/VA) are obtained through turning off or dimming the back-light. Even my phone's LCD has better blacks with automatic brightness enabled, but this also makes the whites look mid-gray and the blacks are pretty bad off-angle. My Vita (Samsung AMOLED) is the most impressive display I have (For contrast ratio/black levels). The only minor note is that the colors (towards blue), contrast ratio and black level shift a bit with the viewing angle. The LG OLED TV reviews also note this happening.
Some LCD black levels W/O local dimming . One (of 5 LCD I have ) that does .008 black has no local dimming or momentary back light shut off either .ofc PDP have better view angle and no or little color shift but PDP glass is reflective
not familiar with WOLED color shift it's a self emissive display so I would think it would be minimal .

None of my sets push green ,blue ,red or nor do whites look grey or black grey when properly set up except for an LG
LED with IPS and no local dimming it's the red headed stepchild here ☺☺☺.
OTOH LG WOLED I've seen in the store look blacker than Plasma IMO,brighter too !


4 Sony black level + contrast Comparison

2013 Sony 40R450 Black: 0.022 cd/m2 Contrast: 4750 : 1 >Samsung SPVA Samsung SPVA cell 6 bit + high frc .
V.G. good color ,contrast + LCD blacks both close to Sony 8x . ( my bed room set )

2014 Sony W600B Black: 0.026 cd/m2 Contrast: 3500 : 1 Samsing SPVA ( *may also be 6 bit overdrive panel )

2014 Sony W800B Black: 0.020 cd/m2 Contrast: 5260 : 1 AUO MVA5

2014 Sony W850B Black: 0.026 cd/m2 Contrast: 4273 : 1 AUO MVA5 (*some sizes may be Samsung SPVA-4)

Note : above black level measurements do not include local dimming or momentary back light shut off .
momentary back light shut off requires no signal or blacker than black (.016) or 0 screen .

2014 Sony W950B Black: 0.111 cd/m2 Contrast: 942 : 1 >>>> LGD IPS (*some sizes may be Samsung SPVA-4)
(*may use local dimming )

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RTings .com is way better IMO.
I do like Rtings.com a decent bit. However, the one glaring issue with that site (and I've heard this complaint elsewhere on these forums) is that they seem to turn off all widgets..even useful ones in the TV settings. For example, they measure pretty high black levels on the Samsung F8500 as they choose not to turn on Black Optimizer even though it is known to (and it is easy to prove) improve black levels without leading to black crush or any other artifact. I believe they may also turn off local dimming in some of their other LCD reviews.
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I do like Rtings.com a decent bit. However, the one glaring issue with that site (and I've heard this complaint elsewhere on these forums) is that they seem to turn off all widgets..even useful ones in the TV settings. For example, they measure pretty high black levels on the Samsung F8500 as they choose not to turn on Black Optimizer even though it is known to (and it is easy to prove) improve black levels without leading to black crush or any other artifact. I believe they may also turn off local dimming in some of their other LCD reviews.

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However, the one glaring issue with that site (and I've heard this complaint elsewhere on these forums) is that they seem to turn off all widgets

What useful widgets I never seen any ? I usually turn off all the widgets .


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They choose not to turn on Black Optimizer even though it is known to (and it is easy to prove) improve black levels without leading to black crush or any other artifact.
(maybe PDP black optomizers only reduce brightness a small amt like they do on LCD ? I don't remember if mine is off or on .if it works that would be about the only useful widget one would be likely to see!☺☺

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I believe they may also turn off local dimming in some of their other LCD reviews
Poorly implemented local dimming can often degrade a picture overall particularly on edge light panels .

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For example, they measure pretty high black levels on the Samsung F8500 as they choose not to turn on Black Optimizer
Nobody's perfect ................. know what I mean

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