Do plasma TVs suffer from 30fps double image issues? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 4Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lara Croft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Smile Do plasma TVs suffer from 30fps double image issues?

I just can't take this anymore. I'm the only person that can see the frame doubling on all lcds (without clear mode interpolation). About 90% of people just seem to ignore it or can't see it. My old 480i CRt never have this issue.


Please list some cheap plasma tvs without interpolation that don't have motion-judder, judder, blur or any 24-30fps issues. I'm really at the point up giving up on this hdtv stuff. It's sad that my old dead crt was better than most hdtv out there today. So sick of returning tvs as well.

I really don't want to pay a stranger to move a big crt into my house btw . But I'll have to if these overrated hd tvs keep being junk.
Lara Croft is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,845
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 817
I don't think they've made a display that handles all motion perfectly, sorry.
crt had to deal with 3:2 pulldown
plasma still has some issues with 24p
lcd generally just sucks
oled is somewhere untested, but the lg's so far have had some problems with motion too.


gotta pick your battles here, unfortunately.


depending on your budget, I'd recommend the Samsung 5 series or f8500. in all honesty, the f8500 is the only non-oled tv on the market I still consider 'good', it's not even 'great'. manufacturers just can't sell high end TV's anymore. so the market is flooded with the low end, and 'good enough' models

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One

Last edited by fierce_gt; 08-14-2014 at 12:44 PM.
fierce_gt is online now  
post #3 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 02:08 PM
Senior Member
 
orion2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
plasma still has some issues with 24p
Could you elaborate on this? I know that the older Panasonics that only did 48Hz for 2:2 pulldown had issues as 48Hz is quite painful to view. 4:4 pulldown at 96Hz on my F5300 seems to work quite well and I don't observe any real issues with it... but I may be missing something.

Also, to OP, I presume you are distinguishing between judder induced by the TV (due to pulldown) v/s judder that is inherent in 24p content due to the low fps of the source content?
orion2001 is online now  
post #4 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 02:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,845
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Could you elaborate on this? I know that the older Panasonics that only did 48Hz for 2:2 pulldown had issues as 48Hz is quite painful to view. 4:4 pulldown at 96Hz on my F5300 seems to work quite well and I don't observe any real issues with it... but I may be missing something.

Also, to OP, I presume you are distinguishing between judder induced by the TV (due to pulldown) v/s judder that is inherent in 24p content due to the low fps of the source content?
not really no, haha. the motion looks about the same on all displays too me.


but apparently 'plasmas' never usually pass the 24fps motion test on the spears and munsil disc. I don't know exactly how it fails, and I haven't seen anything personally that stood out. I know there's a lot of debate about what your best option is for watching 24fps on the Samsung f8500(the tv I own) as some ppl complain about how it looks with 96hz looking too much like frame interpolation, and others complain about juddering when it's off. motion just seems to be one of those things nobody can agree on how it's handled best. everybody has their own opinion.


this thread is a good example. I honestly have no idea what 'frame doubling' is, and it seems to be something the OP is excessively sensitive to since no body else seems bothered by it that's s/he's talked to.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #5 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 02:53 PM
KOF
Advanced Member
 
KOF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 775
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 103
If you're annoyed by 30hz judder on LCDs, stay away from plasmas, as they will be even worse. BTW, I can see 30hz judder on CRTs too, but they're so fast it hardly matters. While all plasmas suffer from 30hz judder, there are a few products that can mitigrate it to a great degree, and no, they won't come cheap either. Ask ChadThunder about the professional Panasonic plasmas. They have the best motion resolution (I think 1080 lines?) so judder won't be annoying. I tend to find the lower the motion resolution, the more annoying the judders become. The Samsung F8500, the Panasonic S60,VT60,ZT60 are all inferior to the LG plasma I had before when it comes to judder. (30 fps games were tolerable on the LG, I can't stand it in my current Panasonic S60) Alternatively, you can use external motion interpolation software such as MadVR and deal with soap opera crap.
KOF is online now  
post #6 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lara Croft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post
If you're annoyed by 30hz judder on LCDs, stay away from plasmas, as they will be even worse. BTW, I can see 30hz judder on CRTs too, but they're so fast it hardly matters. While all plasmas suffer from 30hz judder, there are a few products that can mitigrate it to a great degree, and no, they won't come cheap either. Ask ChadThunder about the professional Panasonic plasmas. They have the best motion resolution (I think 1080 lines?) so judder won't be annoying. I tend to find the lower the motion resolution, the more annoying the judders become. The Samsung F8500, the Panasonic S60,VT60,ZT60 are all inferior to the LG plasma I had before when it comes to judder. (30 fps games were tolerable on the LG, I can't stand it in my current Panasonic S60) Alternatively, you can use external motion interpolation software such as MadVR and deal with soap opera crap.
My problem with the LG-LB6300 right now is that interpolation gives me very bad motionsickness. Btw I have 2 questions below.

1. How come I never seen 30fps double image on my old CRT?
2. Do all modern hdtvs have that 24-30fps double image judder even for normal tv viewing? So far I can see that slight double image on every lcd I tested when I turn off interpolation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I don't think they've made a display that handles all motion perfectly, sorry.
crt had to deal with 3:2 pulldown
plasma still has some issues with 24p
lcd generally just sucks
oled is somewhere untested, but the lg's so far have had some problems with motion too.


gotta pick your battles here, unfortunately.


depending on your budget, I'd recommend the Samsung 5 series or f8500. in all honesty, the f8500 is the only non-oled tv on the market I still consider 'good', it's not even 'great'. manufacturers just can't sell high end TV's anymore. so the market is flooded with the low end, and 'good enough' models
$1,797.99 is alot for a HDTV that can't compete with a $50 CRT.
Lara Croft is offline  
post #7 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 03:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,845
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Croft View Post
My problem with the LG-LB6300 right now is that interpolation gives me very bad motionsickness. Btw I have 2 questions below.

1. How come I never seen 30fps double image on my old CRT?
2. Do all modern hdtvs have that 24-30fps double image judder even for normal tv viewing? So far I can see that slight double image on every lcd I tested when I turn off interpolation.



$1,797.99 is alot for a HDTV that can't compete with a $50 CRT.
I know.


but, this is the market we created by not buying the $4k and $5k crt's when we had them. but I do feel the f8500, vt60, zt60, st60 have finally 'beaten' crt in overall picture quality. they still don't have black blacks, or zero lag, but they are impressive even in their faults.


and in all honesty, 1800 is a steal for a good tv. I haven't been truly happy with anything(even crts) that cost less than around 3grand. not saying that you have to spend that much, just that even in the past and even with CRT you had to spend good money to get a high end product. 3k last year bought me a 64" f8500. 3k 8 or 9yrs ago bought me a really nice 46" hitachi RPTV. 3k several years before that bought my parents a 32" sony Trinitron that really wasn't all that good. so I am happy with the progress in general, even if I'm still missing those off blacks of the RPTV.


can you explain what this 'double image' is that you see. hard to say whether or not it's an issue if I don't know what it is.


also, I seem to notice motion performance becomes more troublesome with larger screens. I didn't notice much with my crt's because the largest tube version I had was 32". even the RPTV had its issues, and it was actually visible on the 46" size. I find the motion looks pretty decent on my smaller TV's, even though they happen to be lcd.


have you experienced any of these issues at commercial movie theaters?

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #8 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 03:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wxman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 243
The solution would be simple if the industry used 60fps instead of 30fps or 24fps. Is the old days of film, one could understand due to the cost of using film but today with many using digital cameras, it makes no sense using old standards. I know some purists will say it looks like the SOE when using 60fps, but I would rather get use to that than deal with judder or blur.
wxman is offline  
post #9 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 04:00 PM
Senior Member
 
RyanHomsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I think I experience the "double image" that he's referring to with my Samsung F5350 plasma. It's most apparent during quick movements or horizontal panning. I play Toy Story quite often for my kids and when the menu comes up there are icons scrolling from the right side of the screen to the left --- and I can literally see two of them. It's most apparent during stuff like that but I see it all the time to some degree. This is my first plasma and prior to purchasing the two "absolutes" I often saw stated was "the deepest of deep blacks" and "the best motion handling"... and while I think the set overall looks wonderful and I would take it any day over all but the best FALD LCD's - those two things disappointed/surprised me most.
RyanHomsey is offline  
post #10 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Croft View Post
I just can't take this anymore. I'm the only person that can see the frame doubling on all lcds (without clear mode interpolation). About 90% of people just seem to ignore it or can't see it. My old 480i CRt never have this issue.


Please list some cheap plasma tvs without interpolation that don't have motion-judder, judder, blur or any 24-30fps issues. I'm really at the point up giving up on this hdtv stuff. It's sad that my old dead crt was better than most hdtv out there today. So sick of returning tvs as well.

I really don't want to pay a stranger to move a big crt into my house btw . But I'll have to if these overrated hd tvs keep being junk.
Samsung 4500 series. If you like CRT you'll love it. If you dont, then you dont really like or do not correctly remember what HD CRT sets looked like.

I regularly play classic 30fps, 480p and 240p video games (currently playing Resident Evil 4) and there is no such effect(nor is there such an effect on 60fps games, either) . It looks remarkably close to the big HD CRTs for which you seem to be pining. I know, because I had two of them, and refused to give them up for LCD/LED technology because:

1. 480i/p game systems looked crap on every LCD I tried.
2. Soap opera motion interpolation effect. It sucks. I could forgive it if EVERYTHING moved smoothly because of it, but it does not. Usually screen pans move smoothly, and character animation still moves with visible 3:2 pulldown "classic" judder. I cant comprehend how people can watch that mess of smooth/mixed with judder and say they actually like it.

So, I took a chance on a cheap, dim looking (compared to the LCDs next to it) plasma after Wal Mart employees gave me permission to test it with my soft modded Wii game system. Turns out its the most impressive (in my humble opinion) TV I have ever owned.

There are no double images created with 30Hz game content on it. It handles 30hz, 60hz, and 60hz 3:2 pulldown content identically to HD CRTs, except for slight motion dithering, which is just part of how plasmas work. Dithering is not judder, its more akin to opaqueness (or lack thereof) and is really only noticable on 60hz game content, but you adjust to it very quickly. The screen updates 60 times a second, just like CRTs, they just do it in a different way (by turning on and off phosphor coated plasma cells(essentially micro-flourescent lamps), as opposed to scanning electron beams across a phosphor coated screen some ~30,000 times a second).

The 4500 is the closest thing to what you are looking for, and its dirt cheap. Too cheap to not try, at the very least. You owe it to yourself to try it. Much less daunting and risky than a $2000+ F8500 or VT as some are suggesting.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-14-2014 at 04:55 PM.
Josh128 is online now  
post #11 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 04:54 PM
KOF
Advanced Member
 
KOF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 775
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Croft View Post

$1,797.99 is alot for a HDTV that can't compete with a $50 CRT.
And your $50 CRT certainly won't touch the F8500 in ANSI contrast ratio with a paltry 100:1~300:1. I'm still a big fan of CRT too. I still own the Sony Trinitron GDM-FW900 and to date, I consider my Sony Trinitron BVM broadcast monitor as the best CRT display I've seen/owned. Yet, I still consider the F8500 as a superior TV to my BVM. Heck, my current Panasonic S60 can already destroy my Trinitron BVM for 60% of contents, and it would easily peak near 100% had ABL not reared its ugly head. What the F8500 lose against my BVM (input lag, motion performance,ABL), it more than makes it up with its contrast ratio. Both are on about equal footing when it comes to color accuracy, and unlike consumer Trinitrons, my Sony BVM has perfect geometry so I won't put that against my CRT. While resolution difference is obvious between the two, I'm not someone who crows with resolution as I feel it's one of most overrated factor. (contrast ratio is much more important) Back when the F8500 was hot and steamy, on own, I used to consider it the only Sony BVM/XBR960 replacement. (The Kuros are a bit lacking in ABL department against the CRTs, the S-PVA LCDs have terrible motion blur)

Back in topic,

#1 . Have you tried playing fast-paced FPSs on your CRT? I used to see it all the time while playing Quake and Unreal. CRTs are fortunate that low paced console 3D games do not really show judder that much, but PC FPSs have mouse-judder in addition to actual video judder, so I guess that's why it was easier for me to see judders on CRTs, as I mostly gamed on computer monitors. (Back in the day, I used to fiddle with Xbox and Playstation2 to output RGB instead of YUV so I could play on my FW900. Ahh.. those were the days.)

#2 . Judder will not be defeated on ALL non-matching frequency rate between the display and the source. There is only one instance you can get a matching native 30hz panel and that is by buying an HDMI 1.4 Ultra HD TVs as they are limited to 24hz/30hz. I've confirmed those TVs eliminate judders completely but they have it FAR worse with increased sample and hold (meaning more blur) so it's not really worth it.

Even in 24hz playback mode, plasmas still suffer from image-doubling judder as I don't know of any plasmas that can output in 24hz. Most of them output in 48hz/72hz/96hz. Those modes WILL eliminate 3:2 pulldown judder, but the image-doubling judder will still remain because those frequency rates are multiples of 24hz. I tried setting my Geforce 650 to output in 24hz and tried to play some games in 48hz on my Panasonic S60, and while the playback was jerky and filmlike, (expected of 24hz playback) doubling judder was still present so it was very unfortunate. Plasmas have difficulty outputting true 24hz as flickering is already bad enough on 48hz. CRTs can be modded to output in true 24hz/30hz btw (my FW900 for example) and that will eliminate all judders on the CRTs. So, remember, to get rid of image-doubling judder, both the source framerate and display refresh rate must be matched.

If you're truly after the most judder-friendly display other than a CRT, then take a look at one of Panasonic professional plasmas. For consumer plasmas, the Samsung E8000 and the Panasonic VT50 are both respected here for having spectacular motion resolution, so check out those too.
KOF is online now  
post #12 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 06:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
OK, after thinking about this "30hz double image problem" you are speaking of, I just fired up the RE4 game on the 4500 and looked around a bit. After about 5 minutes of looking about in a room with white columns, I think I understand what you are talking about. Take for instance, a light colored vertical column in a dark room. In a 30fps game, if you look around/pan the screen and follow the column with your eyes, you can see "two" of them as they move-- the faster they move, the wider apart the two images appear. The slower they move, the closer the two images are, and they converge when you completely stop moving/scrolling.

Is this effect what you are speaking of?
Josh128 is online now  
post #13 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post
CRTs can be modded to output in true 24hz/30hz btw (my FW900 for example) and that will eliminate all judders on the CRTs.
You must be confused here. If you mod any CRT to refresh at 24 or 30hz, it would literally look like a strobe light, with extremely bad flicker. You wouldnt want to spend more than a few seconds looking at it as it would get you sick.

About the lowest refresh you can get away with on CRT is 50hz (the PAL standard), and at that point, image flicker is far more noticable than 60hz NTSC content.

In order for you to use a CRT at 30hz refresh, you would have to have some kind of special phosphors that would excite extremely quickly and decay or fade extremely slowly to avoid horrible flicker, but then you would be left with unbelievable phosphor trailing/motion smearing. Ive never heard or read of any CRT display that is watchable at anything near 30hz, I'd love to hear how that would even work.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-14-2014 at 06:30 PM.
Josh128 is online now  
post #14 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 06:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Lodrin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 227
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Is this effect what you are speaking of?
Yeah. LCD monitors 'smear' between the 2 'juddered' images, which makes it feel more like motion blur instead of judder. It doesn't just happen @ 30fps either. 60fps video games will also produce it depending on the speed of the pan.
Lodrin is offline  
post #15 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 06:35 PM
ADU
AVS Special Member
 
ADU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 154
The only way you'd see double images on an LCD/LED with 30fps content is if you engage a 60Hz black frame insertion routine. Otherwise, you'll just see motion-blur (or smearing), like the last poster just said.

Progressive 60Hz CRTs (ie computer monitors) also suffered from the double image effect on 30fps content. What makes it a bit less noticeable on an SD (480i) CRT is the interlacing.

Hitachi made a few interlaced 1080i plasma TVs back in the day, but they didn't have the best blacks/shadow detail. And some plasma TVs (e.g. Panasonics) also employ line-dithering techniques similar to interlacing to reduce their MLLs (minimum light levels).

No tech is perfect. But I agree with Josh and some others here that a plasma TV like the Sammy F4500 and F5300 will get you closer to the look and feel of a CRT than just about any other type of TV. They will have double images though on 30fps content and 3:2 judder on 24fps content in 60Hz mode. And in 96Hz mode (Film Mode/Cinema Smooth), each film frame will be repeated 4 times, which may enhance the strobe-like quality of the movement to some people's eyes. And there is no frame interpolation / "soap opera" routine on the TV to mitigate that. The motion will look very much like a progressive (non-interlaced) 60Hz or 96Hz CRT, except much larger in size.

The smaller the TV is, the less you'll probably notice the motion issues, and the more it will probably feel like your good ole SD CRT. So my suggestion is to try the 43" F4500. I watched a lot of 24fps content on the 43F4500, mostly in 60Hz mode, and was rarely ever distracted by the motion characteristics on the TV. It felt very much like watching a large screen CRT. (30fps content may be a bit different though.)

I still own a really nice 24" SD CRT that I picked up in 1999, and was a little afraid to turn it on while test-driving the 43F4500. But after a few crucial tweaks to the PQ settings on the plasma, it compared quite favorably with the CRT.

The CRT still had a little better sense of depth/dimension, and noticeably deeper blacks in a dark room. But in terms of color, contrast, and motion, they were surprisingly similar. And the plasma definitely outshined the CRT in terms of size, detail, clarity and immersiveness.

You can compensate for the plasma TV's somewhat brighter blacks by using a little brighter room lighting behind and around the display btw (often referred to as "bias-lighting"). The Samsung plasmas don't have the absolute deepest blacks out there, but they're very respectable for a flat panel, and much more uniform than any LCD/LED, which definitely helps.

The Sammy F4500 is a 768p resolution TV though, so if you want "true" 1080p, you'd need to step up a little in size/price to the 51F5300, which is also a very nice TV, when properly configured.

If you want some tips on how to make the F4500 or F5300 more "CRT-like", feel free to post your questions in any of the threads on those TVs here, and we'll try to offer some suggestions. There's very little that can be done within the TV though to change its basic motion characteristics.

If you want to add frame interpolation (soap opera effect), that can probably be done with special software on a PC, or maybe with a more expensive Blu-ray/media player.

ADU

Last edited by ADU; 08-14-2014 at 09:38 PM.
ADU is offline  
post #16 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 06:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Jason626's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: illinois
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
The solution would be simple if the industry used 60fps instead of 30fps or 24fps. Is the old days of film, one could understand due to the cost of using film but today with many using digital cameras, it makes no sense using old standards. I know some purists will say it looks like the SOE when using 60fps, but I would rather get use to that than deal with judder or blur.
Totally agree with this.
Jason626 is online now  
post #17 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 07:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,845
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
The solution would be simple if the industry used 60fps instead of 30fps or 24fps. Is the old days of film, one could understand due to the cost of using film but today with many using digital cameras, it makes no sense using old standards. I know some purists will say it looks like the SOE when using 60fps, but I would rather get use to that than deal with judder or blur.
I totally agree. we need to get out of this thinking that new technology is supposed to replicate the old technology(digital movies don't have to look like film, and plasma/oled/lcd doesn't have to look like crt) and get back to the thinking they had when they made those technologies, that you're trying to replicate real life.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #18 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 07:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,845
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I think I experience the "double image" that he's referring to with my Samsung F5350 plasma. It's most apparent during quick movements or horizontal panning. I play Toy Story quite often for my kids and when the menu comes up there are icons scrolling from the right side of the screen to the left --- and I can literally see two of them. It's most apparent during stuff like that but I see it all the time to some degree. This is my first plasma and prior to purchasing the two "absolutes" I often saw stated was "the deepest of deep blacks" and "the best motion handling"... and while I think the set overall looks wonderful and I would take it any day over all but the best FALD LCD's - those two things disappointed/surprised me most.
ah, if that's the case I see that with the f8500 as well. truth is I saw it on my CRT RPVT as well. I'm pretty sure that's the judder you get with a lower frame rate. it's hard to see on smaller displays though
RyanHomsey likes this.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #19 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 07:56 PM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Interesting topic. Agree with ADU that progressive CRTs look like this with 30fps content as well, and with good reason-- its why I was trying to get the OP to bite-- this "double image" effect is basically identical on plasmas and CRTs, and is not a display flaw-- its simply how your optical nerves and brain are wired.

Any pure 30fps content, especially game content (due to its purity ) looks like this and has looked like this even on old CRTs since I was a kid. The old Sega Genesis game "Streets of Rage" and several other Sega and SNES games ran at a capped 30fps to avoid slowdown when lots of characters filled the screen (due to those sub 10Mhz CPUs!). I remember distinctly some papers and debris that blow across the screen in level 2 of SOR that perfectly exhibit this "double image effect". This can also be seen in the background scrolling, etc. Super Mario 64 is another great example of a capped 30fps game and the effect is prevalent there also. This is just how your eyes and brain discern 30 frames per second animation.

This effect on current plasmas (like the 4500 or 5300) is identical to CRTs-- because its not actually displaying a double image, your brain is just tricking you into seeing it! If you were to take a high shutter speed photo snapshot of a 30fps game displaying this effect on either a CRT or plasma, you would only see one image, not 2, guaranteed. On LCD, because the liquid crystals generally are not as fast to change shape as CRT and plasma phosphor luminance excites and decays, you would indeed see some "blurring" of the effect.

So in short, you are remembering CRTs through rose-colored glasses-- if the effect Im speaking of is indeed what is bothering you, its always been there and WILL always be there in one way or another as long as you are looking at true 30fps animation or scrolling.
Josh128 is online now  
post #20 of 44 Old 08-14-2014, 11:48 PM
Senior Member
 
orion2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Well, I learned something new today. This issue is clearly evident on this page: http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

Assuming that your display is set to 60pHz, it is easy to see the double image for the 30fps UFO. I'm still not sure I understand why this occurs. Shouldn't the TV be performing 2:2 pulldown on 30p content and just show the same frame twice...in the SAME location?
RyanHomsey likes this.
orion2001 is online now  
post #21 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lara Croft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Interesting topic. Agree with ADU that progressive CRTs look like this with 30fps content as well, and with good reason-- its why I was trying to get the OP to bite-- this "double image" effect is basically identical on plasmas and CRTs, and is not a display flaw-- its simply how your optical nerves and brain are wired.

Any pure 30fps content, especially game content (due to its purity ) looks like this and has looked like this even on old CRTs since I was a kid. The old Sega Genesis game "Streets of Rage" and several other Sega and SNES games ran at a capped 30fps to avoid slowdown when lots of characters filled the screen (due to those sub 10Mhz CPUs!). I remember distinctly some papers and debris that blow across the screen in level 2 of SOR that perfectly exhibit this "double image effect". This can also be seen in the background scrolling, etc. Super Mario 64 is another great example of a capped 30fps game and the effect is prevalent there also. This is just how your eyes and brain discern 30 frames per second animation.

This effect on current plasmas (like the 4500 or 5300) is identical to CRTs-- because its not actually displaying a double image, your brain is just tricking you into seeing it! If you were to take a high shutter speed photo snapshot of a 30fps game displaying this effect on either a CRT or plasma, you would only see one image, not 2, guaranteed. On LCD, because the liquid crystals generally are not as fast to change shape as CRT and plasma phosphor luminance excites and decays, you would indeed see some "blurring" of the effect.

So in short, you are remembering CRTs through rose-colored glasses-- if the effect Im speaking of is indeed what is bothering you, its always been there and WILL always be there in one way or another as long as you are looking at true 30fps animation or scrolling.
Remember that scene when Neo vomited because he couldn't handle the truth of the matrix? That's how I feel right now . In my mind my old CRT was godly perfect. I don't want to make the mistake of buying a 200 pound crt only to find out that it really did have double image effect.

My only worry about that samsung is that it's a downgrade from the LB6300 which is a 1080p. Plus I think on Rtings.com the LB6300 got an 8.0 in blur while the Samsung got a 7.5. That drop in 5 points worries me.
Lara Croft is offline  
post #22 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 04:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Well, I learned something new today. This issue is clearly evident on this page: http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

Assuming that your display is set to 60pHz, it is easy to see the double image for the 30fps UFO. I'm still not sure I understand why this occurs. Shouldn't the TV be performing 2:2 pulldown on 30p content and just show the same frame twice...in the SAME location?
Read my comment above-- it does(show the same frame twice in the same location). Im using a 17" CRT set to 60fps to check. Take a camera with a high shutter speed and take a picture of that screen. With a good CRT or plasma you will only see one UFO in the picture. Its the way your eyes and brain are wired my friend. More later.

Last edited by Josh128; 08-15-2014 at 02:09 PM.
Josh128 is online now  
post #23 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 06:13 AM
Senior Member
 
RyanHomsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Read my comment above-- it does. Im using a 17" CRT set to 60fps to check. Take a camera with a high shutter speed and take a picture of that screen. With a good CRT or plasma you will only see one UFO in the picture. Its the way your eyes and brain are wired my friend. More later.
I just wanted to confirm this: I just tested it with my DSLR. Even at very low FPS rates where I could visually "see double" I could not get my camera to pick it up. There was always a single UFO graphic.

IMO, albeit less accurate, the smearing/blurring inherent in LCD based panels seems less distracting.

My TV upgrade path has been Sony XBR970 34" CRT --- > LG LD520 42" CCFL LCD --- > Samsung 60" F5350 Plasma. When I purchased the LG LCD in 2010 I literally bought/returned 3 different LED/CCFL LCD panels and eventually just gave up when I realized I wasn't going to get the same performance as my CRT. I dont see the double on my CRT (still running strong in the kids bedroom) but it is much smaller than the 60" plasma, which is probably the cause of that.
RyanHomsey is offline  
post #24 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lara Croft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanHomsey View Post
I just wanted to confirm this: I just tested it with my DSLR. Even at very low FPS rates where I could visually "see double" I could not get my camera to pick it up. There was always a single UFO graphic.

IMO, albeit less accurate, the smearing/blurring inherent in LCD based panels seems less distracting.

My TV upgrade path has been Sony XBR970 34" CRT --- > LG LD520 42" CCFL LCD --- > Samsung 60" F5350 Plasma. When I purchased the LG LCD in 2010 I literally bought/returned 3 different LED/CCFL LCD panels and eventually just gave up when I realized I wasn't going to get the same performance as my CRT. I dont see the double on my CRT (still running strong in the kids bedroom) but it is much smaller than the 60" plasma, which is probably the cause of that.
So do some crts not have double image?
Lara Croft is offline  
post #25 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 06:46 AM
Member
 
jasondjulian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 71
sounds like someone needs to try out a good performing digital projector.. would those display with similar effects as has been mentioned here already? I would think not.

Panasonic TC-P55S60
Sony S5100 BD-Player
RCA 5 disc DVD HTIB for 5.1 Surround
jasondjulian is offline  
post #26 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 07:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Josh128's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Croft View Post
So do some crts not have double image?
Remember the photo test I brought up and Ryan verified-- the CRTs do not have the double image(neither do plasmas)-- your eyes and brain are just interpreting the redraw of the image that way...its a visual illusion.

And, while there may be factors that make the illusion more or less noticable, like screen size for example, or perhaps brightness, etc. its always going to be there at 30 fps. 60fps and higher its much less noticable as 60fps is the point where stop motion /redraw becomes perfectly smooth to the human eye (in most people).

Last edited by Josh128; 08-15-2014 at 02:08 PM.
Josh128 is online now  
post #27 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Lara Croft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
Remember the photo test I brought up and Ryan verified-- the CRTs do not have the double image(neither do plasmas)-- your eyes and brain are just interpreting the redraw of the image that way...its a visual illusion.

And, while there may be factors that make the illusion more or less noticable, like screen size for example, or perhaps brightness, etc. its always going to be there at 30 fps. 60fps and higher its much less noticable as 60fps is the point where stop motion /redraw becomes perfectly smooth to the human in (in most people).
You are correct. I tried pausing a bluray (Tangled) during what appeared to be a slight double image but every time it shows a solid image.

Edit: Doesn't LCD Sample & Hold make it worse?

Last edited by Lara Croft; 08-15-2014 at 08:54 AM. Reason: More info
Lara Croft is offline  
post #28 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 10:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 9,955
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked: 549
Wow this thread is a train wreck. So much time spent talking about a problem that doesn't exist. There's no such thing as 30Hz cadence judder on a 60Hz set. It displays every one of the 30Hz frames twice in the exact same place. This doesn't cause a double image, nor does it cause judder.
Stereodude is offline  
post #29 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 10:18 AM
Member
 
jasondjulian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 71
If anything, it should smooth out the image or have no effect at all.

Panasonic TC-P55S60
Sony S5100 BD-Player
RCA 5 disc DVD HTIB for 5.1 Surround
jasondjulian is offline  
post #30 of 44 Old 08-15-2014, 10:58 AM
Senior Member
 
RyanHomsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Wow this thread is a train wreck. So much time spent talking about a problem that doesn't exist. There's no such thing as 30Hz cadence judder on a 60Hz set. It displays every one of the 30Hz frames twice in the exact same place. This doesn't cause a double image, nor does it cause judder.
What causes the doubling of images during motion?

Are you saying we are collectively imagining it or something else is the cause?
RyanHomsey is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off