Current Plasmas (Samsung, LG) VS Panny S60 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 08-21-2014, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Current Plasmas (Samsung, LG) VS Panny S60

So I'm looking for a new TV for the bedroom. Last year I jumped on the Sears deal on a 42' S60 and I absolutely LOVE this set. Not a videophile so the color accuracy and black levels are excellent to my eyes and room is light controlled so the reflections were a non issue for me... Now I've moved and I need a bigger TV (kicking myself that I didn't purchase a 55' or 60' S60 but I thought the 42' would suffice) and I've been looking at the Samsung PN51F5300, PN60F5300, LG60PB6650. The F8500 is out of the question and I've done my research on the 60' pentile vs 51' non pentile and the inferior black levels on the LG...

Soo, which set would you guys recommend to be the most comparable to the s60? I'm leaning towards the 60F5300 but I'm afraid the Pentile will annnoy me and the 51' might not be much of an upgrade compared to the 42' but I'm willing to get the 51' if the PQ is comparable to the S60. Viewing distance is about 9-10 feet

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 17 Old 08-21-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LOWPRO24Z View Post
So I'm looking for a new TV for the bedroom. Last year I jumped on the Sears deal on a 42' S60 and I absolutely LOVE this set. Not a videophile so the color accuracy and black levels are excellent to my eyes and room is light controlled so the reflections were a non issue for me... Now I've moved and I need a bigger TV (kicking myself that I didn't purchase a 55' or 60' S60 but I thought the 42' would suffice) and I've been looking at the Samsung PN51F5300, PN60F5300, LG60PB6650. The F8500 is out of the question and I've done my research on the 60' pentile vs 51' non pentile and the inferior black levels on the LG...

Soo, which set would you guys recommend to be the most comparable to the s60? I'm leaning towards the 60F5300 but I'm afraid the Pentile will annnoy me and the 51' might not be much of an upgrade compared to the 42' but I'm willing to get the 51' if the PQ is comparable to the S60. Viewing distance is about 9-10 feet

Thanks in advance.
Nothing you listed is really going to compare. The closest, if you are talking solely black level, is going to be the F5300 or the H5000. The H is a bit out of your price range based on what you are talking about. I wouldn't dismiss the PB6650 or its 3d variant, the PB6900. Both are excellent sets and even with worse black levels than the F5300, it is still and outstanding tv with excellent pq and an abundance of features (wifi, 3 hdmi, arc, smart, isf calibration). Your best bet is to try and view all three at the same time. I believe Fry's carries at least the H and PB. Best Buy might carry all 3. Paul's TV is another option or HH Gregg. Let your eyes decide, not specs.
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post #3 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 03:10 PM
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The 51F5300 is a fantastic set with very good PQ and very few weaknesses. I'd say its the Samsung equivalent to the S60 series. From what Ive read and my personal experience with both brands, the Samsung is much more resistant to IR and burn in than the Panasonic.

The 60F5300 could be great, but its no S60 as the pentile screen and pink whites hold it down.

The only thing I know about the LGs are that the contrast ratios are supposedly very low for a plasma, but the design of the sets themselves is very nice. Better act soon or they will be your ONLY choice!
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post #4 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 07:12 PM
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you've pretty much stated everything I could tell you already.


the f5300/f5500 will be the most similar for the money, but you have the pentile 60" to worry about. can you fit a 64"? remember how bummed you are right now that you only bought a 42" s60, you don't want to be bummed like this again in a year or two when the only option for 64" tv is edgelit LCD, or $4000 oled

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post #5 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
The 51F5300 is a fantastic set with very good PQ and very few weaknesses. I'd say its the Samsung equivalent to the S60 series. From what Ive read and my personal experience with both brands, the Samsung is much more resistant to IR and burn in than the Panasonic.
Agree about the IR, but not about burn-in. IR isn't really an issue on the Sammy plasmas, but they are highly susceptible to phosphor burn-in when new. (The difference between IR, aka "transient image persistence", and burn-in is explained here.) The Panasonics and LGs are probably also very susceptible to burn-in when new. I have less experience with LGs, but have seen plenty of Panasonic floor samples with burnt-in images.

I'm sure the LGs are nice displays, but the few I've seen in person had noticeable haloing (probably due to the double-paned glass), which was a deal-breaker for me.

Both the F5300 and F4500 can look very "S60-like", when properly configured. In some ways, I actually like the picture on the Sammies better than the S60. The S60 does have slightly darker blacks though... enough to be noticeable in a dark or dimly lit room. You can compensate for that by using a little more illumination around the Samsung display.

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post #6 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
Both the F5300 and F4500 can look very "S60-like", when properly configured. In some ways, I actually like the picture on the Sammies better than the S60. The S60 does have slightly darker blacks though... enough to be noticeable in a dark or dimly lit room. You can compensate for that by using a little more illumination around the display.
The main difference between the two is that the S60 has better contrast and a bit more pop. Color accuracy is also the S60's strength. That being said, both these sets are very close in over all PQ and except for the 60'' pentile display, if you like the S60, you'll probably like the 5300 too.

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post #7 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 11:35 PM
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Not really disagreein with you Ian, but I would say the main differences are black depth, motion quality, and build-quality. The out-of-box color might be a little better on the Panny. But both displays can be configured for highly accurate color. And most find the CMS/white balance controls a breeze to use on the Sammies. The basic picture controls interact more on the Samsung though. And I can see some folks struggling a bit with that difference.

I tend to fiddle quite a bit with the settings on my TVs, esp. the white levels (Cell Light on the Samsung displays) for different content/room lighting. So I made some charts to help me remember the correct Brightness/black level settings for different Cell Light and Gamma settings. Here's an example...

 Gamma -3Gamma -2Gamma -1
Cell Light:Brightness:Brightness:Brightness:
0585553
1565452
2-3545250
4-6525049
7-17504847
18-20484746

This was for Movie mode, with Contrast set to 95 on the 43F4500, using a 1080p Y'CbCr 4:4:4 video input with standard Rec. 709 16-235 studio swing levels from a BD player on HDMI input #1. The above Brightness settings keep reference black (Y'=16) at MLL below the dithering threshold, without clipping any noticeable shadow detail.

I also keep a set of patterns handy on a USB stick so I can easily check display settings without swapping discs on my BD player.
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post #8 of 17 Old 08-22-2014, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
The 51F5300 is a fantastic set with very good PQ and very few weaknesses. I'd say its the Samsung equivalent to the S60 series. From what Ive read and my personal experience with both brands, the Samsung is much more resistant to IR and burn in than the Panasonic.

The 60F5300 could be great, but its no S60 as the pentile screen and pink whites hold it down.

The only thing I know about the LGs are that the contrast ratios are supposedly very low for a plasma, but the design of the sets themselves is very nice. Better act soon or they will be your ONLY choice!
The hardest part of making a decision has been the fact that the 60' is Pentile. I want the 60' for the fact that I don't want to regret it later, I have the space for a 60' so why not? I have a couple Costco's near me and they have plenty of F5350's sitting around but I'm probably going to make a decision within the next couple weeks.

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you've pretty much stated everything I could tell you already.


the f5300/f5500 will be the most similar for the money, but you have the pentile 60" to worry about. can you fit a 64"? remember how bummed you are right now that you only bought a 42" s60, you don't want to be bummed like this again in a year or two when the only option for 64" tv is edgelit LCD, or $4000 oled
I wish I could fit a 64' but no it's going to be too big unfortunately. That's exactly why I want the 60' instead of the 51' b/c I know I'll regret it later and in a perfect world I'd get another S60 in a 55' or 60' but obviously that's not happening.

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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The main difference between the two is that the S60 has better contrast and a bit more pop. Color accuracy is also the S60's strength. That being said, both these sets are very close in over all PQ and except for the 60'' pentile display, if you like the S60, you'll probably like the 5300 too.

Ian
Yep I couldn't agree more...Just have to decide b/w pentile or not. Luckily this set is for the bedroom so it wouldn't be a big deal if I got the 51'

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post #9 of 17 Old 08-23-2014, 04:16 AM
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Agree about the IR, but not about burn-in. IR isn't really an issue on the Sammy plasmas, but they are highly susceptible to phosphor burn-in when new. (The difference between IR, aka "transient image persistence", and burn-in is explained here.) The Panasonics and LGs are probably also susceptible to burn-in when new. I have less experience with LGs, but have seen plenty of Panasonic floor samples with burnt-in images.

I'm sure the LGs are nice displays, but the few I've seen in person had noticeable haloing (probably due to the double-paned glass), which was a deal-breaker for me.

Both the F5300 and F4500 can look very "S60-like", when properly configured. In some ways, I actually like the picture on the Sammies better than the S60. The S60 does have slightly darker blacks though... enough to be noticeable in a dark or dimly lit room. You can compensate for that by using a little more illumination around the display.
Yeah, Im aware of the difference. The IR difference Ive seen personally-- the burn in I read about in an article on the net. Forget the source, but it was a side by side review of some Panny and Sammy plasmas where an image was accidentally left on for over 8 hours. The Panasonic basically burned in and the Sammys were just IR that they were able to clear with minimal effort.

My 2013 TC-P50X60 Panny also had some light burn in that was only visible on a black screen, I could not get it to go away. Sure any plasma can and will get burn in if abused-- but from all Ive read the Samsungs are about as resistant as it gets. Maybe that depends strongly on your cell light and brightness settings though, who knows?
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post #10 of 17 Old 10-10-2014, 12:58 PM
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question about comparing 2 plasma models - the Samsung F5300 and the Panasonic TC-P50GT25 (which I currently own). Thinking of selling the Panny bc of a cross country move and buying the newer Samsung. Thoughts??? Should I just hold on to the Panny?
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post #11 of 17 Old 10-10-2014, 05:54 PM
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Pentile is only an issue if you can see it from your normal viewing distance. Most people can't. I almost didn't buy a new PN60F5350 at Costco because of all the Pentile scare talk. But I went ahead and bought it after reading credible reviews, and I'm glad I did. At my normal 8-foot viewing distance I can see no difference in pixel structure between my older non-Pentile LG PK540 and the new PN60F5350. In every way the Samsung Pentile image blows away the LG non-Pentile image.
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post #12 of 17 Old 10-11-2014, 10:07 PM
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The whole Pentile thing is really blown out of proportions. @Nikwasi recently purchased a PN60F5300 that he's had sitting right next to his PN51F5300B and he is exceptionally happy with the 60F5300 and has posted his thoughts about this in another thread. Like you, he was put off by the comments here on the forums against pentile, but after reading all the feedback from folks who actually own the set on the PN60F5300 thread, he decided to purchase one and is very happy with that decision. Also, while no one cares, the pentile does have the advantage of significantly lower power consumption and as a result less heat generated.

At 9-10 ft viewing distance, I can assure you that the pentile screen will not be noticeable. I view from around 10-10.5 ft with no issues. Once you get to 8ft, you can start to notice it if you really look for it and are being nitpicky. I would not recommend it for <7 ft viewing distances.

Pink tint on the other hand is something to be wary off, but many have gotten lucky to have sets with extremely minor or no discernible pink tint. As long as you purchase the TV locally with an easy way to do returns/exchanges, it should not deter you from trying to pick up the PN60F5300.

Let me also put another thing out there... The difference a 60" screen makes over a 51" is FAR bigger than pentile v/s regular sub-pixel layout. 60" is a huge step up in size and makes a massive difference. At 10 ft viewing distance it is really really nice. I myself moved up from a 720p 42" plasma to the 60" and I have been exceptionally happy. A 51" was not big enough for me for the sense of immersion I was looking for.

If you're on a budget, I personally think the PN60F5300 should be your first choice. If you end up being extraordinarily sensitive to pentile, then you can always return for a PN51F5300 which is also a great set, though at that point, I'd encourage you to look at the 60" LGs because screen size is imho a far more important factor than practically all other things we here at AVS Forums like to obsess over.
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post #13 of 17 Old 10-11-2014, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post
The S60 does have slightly darker blacks though... enough to be noticeable in a dark or dimly lit room. You can compensate for that by using a little more illumination around the Samsung display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
The main difference between the two is that the S60 has better contrast and a bit more pop. Color accuracy is also the S60's strength. That being said, both these sets are very close in over all PQ and except for the 60'' pentile display, if you like the S60, you'll probably like the 5300 too.

Ian
Are you guys sure you aren't comparing against the ST60 and not the S60? The B spec F5300 models have been measured at least by a couple of us to have black level of 0.002ftL which is lower than the S60s ~0.005ftL black levels (from what I could Google). I also don't see how the S60 would have more contrast as a result since it would need to have >70ftL peak luminance output to achieve parity in contrast ratio with the F5300 panels (that get to a max of ~34 - 42ftL depending on Black optimizer setting) and that is certainly not the case.

The ST60 on the other hand did have excellent black levels of ~ 0.0016ftL.

As for color accuracy, I disagree with Ian and agree with ADU...the F5300 sets are very capable and have excellent color accuracy once calibrated (and let's be clear - Color accuracy statements are meaningless without calibration as out of box settings on all sets are nowhere close to calibrated). Both Samsung and Panny provide all the custom knobs to dial in a good calibration. I feel like I've spammed my calibration graph too many times on this forum , but I just wanted to include it here to show that within the limits of my meter, my PN60F5300B achieved an amazing calibration with all color dE values well below 2, except for a couple of the 100% saturation targets.

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post #14 of 17 Old 10-12-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Are you guys sure you aren't comparing against the ST60 and not the S60? The B spec F5300 models have been measured at least by a couple of us to have black level of 0.002ftL which is lower than the S60s ~0.005ftL black levels (from what I could Google). I also don't see how the S60 would have more contrast as a result since it would need to have >70ftL peak luminance output to achieve parity in contrast ratio with the F5300 panels (that get to a max of ~34 - 42ftL depending on Black optimizer setting) and that is certainly not the case.

The ST60 on the other hand did have excellent black levels of ~ 0.0016ftL.

As for color accuracy, I disagree with Ian and agree with ADU...the F5300 sets are very capable and have excellent color accuracy once calibrated (and let's be clear - Color accuracy statements are meaningless without calibration as out of box settings on all sets are nowhere close to calibrated). Both Samsung and Panny provide all the custom knobs to dial in a good calibration. I feel like I've spammed my calibration graph too many times on this forum , but I just wanted to include it here to show that within the limits of my meter, my PN60F5300B achieved an amazing calibration with all color dE values well below 2, except for a couple of the 100% saturation targets.

Let me clarify. Based I on the reviews I've read, and what I have seen, the white balance on the S60 is slightly better then the F5300, which like many Samsung PDP's in this price range, have a tendency to skew to orange. I can not comment on the black level of the newer B series, but according to CNET's David Katzmaier's measurements, the difference between the S and the ST60 was a negligible 0.00027. Also worth considering is the fact that the F5300 is more reflective then the S60 which can offset it's higher peak brightness capability. Personally, I have found that setting the panel brightness to mid on my S60 improves over all performance, especially under moderate daytime lightning conditions. Bottom line, both these sets are pretty close and we're just splitting hairs when comparing them.

http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/plasma/panasonic/s60/comparison (Although I have found the measurements on this site rather conservative, it offers a good snapshot for comparison)


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post #15 of 17 Old 10-12-2014, 11:14 AM
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Let me clarify. Based I on the reviews I've read, and what I have seen, the white balance on the S60 is slightly better then the F5300, which like many Samsung PDP's in this price range, have a tendency to skew to orange.
I have a feeling that a lot of these are based on the 2013 A spec models that have been significantly improved upon in 2014 B models. Quite a few of us have measured out of box Movie mode performance of the 51 and 60F5300 sets and both of them seem to have excellent out of box white balance and color performance for the most part. With calibration though, the grayscale/white balance is flawless on these as many of us have got ridiculously low dE values across 10-100% IRE.

Quote:
I can not comment on the black level of the newer B series, but according to CNET's David Katzmaier's measurements, the difference between the S and the ST60 was a negligible 0.00027.
Yup, it looks like the S measures ~ 0.004 ftL and the ST60 is a bit darker than that. My point though was just that the new F5300B actually does better by 2X than the S, so it certainly doesn't have poorer black level performance unlike the A models which measured higher than the S60.

Quote:
Also worth considering is the fact that the F5300 is more reflective then the S60 which can offset it's higher peak brightness capability. Personally, I have found that setting the panel brightness to mid on my S60 improves over all performance, especially under moderate daytime lightning conditions.
I agree with regards to bright/daytime viewing. But to be honest, black levels are meaningless in typical daytime viewing conditions and they only really matter during dark room viewing.

Quote:
Bottom line, both these sets are pretty close and we're just splitting hairs when comparing them.
Yeah, I agree with that. I think Panasonic made fantastic sets. I just wanted to point out that the newer B spec F5300 panels are actually much improved and compare quite favorably against some of the Panny plasmas. One of the differentiatiors on the F5300 side is that it supports 96Hz movie mode for judderless playback. On the flip side the S60 has an anti-glare filter and some smart app capabilities IIRC.

Quote:
http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/plasma/panasonic/s60/comparison (Although I have found the measurements on this site rather conservative, it offers a good snapshot for comparison)
I like rtings, but I'm not a big fan of a lot of their measurements as they seem to intentionally disable a bunch of useful features on panels. For example, they do not enable Black Optimizer on the F5300 or F8500 reviews even though it is very easy to verify that it makes a big improvement in black levels without crushing blacks. The poor measurement here is a function of an A spec model and BO turned off. As you mentioned, there might have been some conservative settings for the Panny plasma as well.
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-12-2014, 11:52 AM
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Since the 2014 F5300 measurements showed a significant improvement in certain areas, and there were still plenty of 2013 models available at the time the new ones were released, to avoid any confusion as to which set you were getting, it would have made more sense, at least to me, to update the model number. F5400 maybe? Also, since there can be slightly different standards of measurement, to be fair, you would need to do a direct comparison from the same source between the F5300 B version, the S and ST60.

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post #17 of 17 Old 10-14-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Let me also put another thing out there... The difference a 60" screen makes over a 51" is FAR bigger than pentile v/s regular sub-pixel layout. 60" is a huge step up in size and makes a massive difference. At 10 ft viewing distance it is really really nice. I myself moved up from a 720p 42" plasma to the 60" and I have been exceptionally happy. A 51" was not big enough for me for the sense of immersion I was looking for.

If you're on a budget, I personally think the PN60F5300 should be your first choice. If you end up being extraordinarily sensitive to pentile, then you can always return for a PN51F5300 which is also a great set, though at that point, I'd encourage you to look at the 60" LGs because screen size is imho a far more important factor than practically all other things we here at AVS Forums like to obsess over.
I agree. I upgraded from a 50" Panasonic to a 60F5300, and I am never going smaller. I wouldn't even take a 50" OLED over this set. The difference in size is that huge. I sit 8' away. I hope the 77" OLEDs eventually come down in price, but if not I will get a 65" model in a couple of years.
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