What does 1080p (Black and White) mean? Also, viewing distance question. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 09-09-2014, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Arrow What does 1080p (Black and White) mean? Also, viewing distance question.

Hello AVSforums,

I recently purchased a Sammy 60 inch plasma (F5500) and I noticed that every model but the 60 inch simply has 1920x1080 in the spec sheet. However, this specific 60" also has the words black and white in brackets after the resolution. What does this mean? Is this related to the Pentile display that the TV sports? If so, is it only true 1080p for black and white? What about green, red, and blue?

I also had a question regarding viewing distance. I have pretty crappy vision, and I have tried watching Blu-Rays from 7-12ft away. Almost all of these are in OAR of 2:35, which I do not mind/ However, the problem with that is I do not see the additional detail and clarity if I sit that far away. I have to watch the 60" behemoth from 5-6ft away to notice the subtleties in picture quality. This only applies to movies with black bars, regular 16:9 media I can notice the detail from 7-12ft away.

That said, is it normal to be sitting that close to the TV if the movie has black bars? Can you folks spot detail from far away, even when the aspect ratio isn't 16:9?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks

Last edited by AmusedGoat; 09-10-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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post #2 of 8 Old 09-09-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmusedGoat View Post
Hello AVSforums,

I recently purchased a Sammy 60 inch plasma (F5500) and I noticed that every model but the 60 inch simply has 1920x1080 in the spec sheet. However, this specific 60" also has the words black and white in brackets after the resolution. What does this mean? Is this related to the Pentile display that the TV sports? If so, is it only true 1080p for black and white? What about green, red, and blue?

I also had a question regarding viewing distance. I have pretty crappy vision, and I have tried watching Blu-Rays from 7-12ft away. Almost all of these are in OAR of 2:35, which I do not mind/ However, the problem with that is I do not see the additional detail and clarity if I sit that far away. I have to watch the 60" behemoth from 5-6ft away to notice the subtleties in picture quality. This only applies to movies with black bars, regular 16:9 media I can notice the detail from 7-12ft away.

That said, is it normal to be sitting that close to the TV if the movie has black bars? Can you folks spot detail from far away, even when the aspect ratio isn't 16:9?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.
The 60-inch members of the 5500 and 5300 series have somewhat different subpixel structure compared to the 51- and 64-inch sizes (subpixels are the little colored dots that combine to form a pixel). On the 51- and 64-inchers, and just about every other flat-panel TV in existence, each pixel is composed of one red, one green, and one blue subpixel (RGB), all of uniform size. On the 60-inchers however, there is one green subpixel for every red, and another green subpixel for every blue (RGBG). In addition, the areas of the red and blue pixels are larger than the green ones, which allows them to emit more light but use less power overall. There are also most likely half the number of red and blue sub-pixels since they "share" a green one--we're awaiting confirmation from Samsung on that last point of difference.


as far viewing distance, wherever you see what you want.
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post #3 of 8 Old 09-09-2014, 07:52 PM
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yes, it's because it's pentile. there's not enough red and blue subpixels for it to be 'full' 1080p. although I'm not entirely sure how it's 1080p in black and white either, as a b/w image isn't just green subpixels...
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post #4 of 8 Old 09-10-2014, 12:14 PM
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A 1080p Pentile display has the following number of subpixels (according to their site):

1920x1080 green subpixels
960x1080 red subpixels
960x1080 blue subpixels

The reason you get a full 1920x1080 black and white image can be shown with the following example:

4 pixels by 1 pixel
stripes:

White Black White Black

RGB: RGB xxx RGB xxx
Pentile RGBG: RG Bx RG Bx

Despite using only two subpixels, Pentile uses the same number of pixels to display the stripes as RGB.

Last edited by Matrix7; 09-10-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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post #5 of 8 Old 09-10-2014, 12:44 PM
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It might be worth mentioning chroma subsampling in relation to this.
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post #6 of 8 Old 09-10-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrix7 View Post
A 1080p Pentile display has the following number of subpixels (according to their site):

1920x1080 green subpixels
960x1080 red subpixels
960x1080 blue subpixels

The reason you get a full 1920x1080 black and white image can be shown with the following example:

4 pixels by 1 pixel
stripes:

White Black White Black

RGB: RGB xxx RGB xxx
Pentile RGBG: RG Bx RG Bx

Despite using only two subpixels, Pentile uses the same number of pixels to display the stripes as RGB.
Very informative, thank you.

Does this mean that red and blue are not 'true' 1080p? If so, is there a comparison somewhere or do you have first hand experience with the visual fidelity loss from such a subpixel arrangement, if any? Can the human eye detect a difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
It might be worth mentioning chroma subsampling in relation to this.
How does this play into the whole thing? Does chroma subsampling mitigate the resolution loss, making it less noticeable to the human eye? Or something...
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post #7 of 8 Old 09-10-2014, 12:53 PM
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Can't comment on the PenTile issue save to say that you shouldn't see a difference in image detail at normal viewing distances. Subtle things, perhaps...

Viewing distance is up to you, recommendations not withstanding. There are a few rules-of-thumb, based on this calculator...

Pixel resolution threshold
This is the distance were a person with normal vision would just stop resolving individual pixels.When you combine individual pixels into a display, this becomes the "ideal" viewing distance in that your eye is able to see all the information on the screen, without seeing the screen.

Recommended distances
THX wants you to sit where the screen is 26-36 degrees wide
SMTPE wants the screen to be no less than 30 degrees wide.

Functional limitations
Too close: I can start to see the pixel array with normal corrected vision at about one screen diagonal on my plasma. I sit no closer than this, and call this my "excitement zone" when something has me on the edge of my seat, or better yet, jumping out of it. Note this is still ~2x minimum viewing distance based on human field of view...

Too far: lots of criteria, but a functional one is when you're sitting on the opposite wall. Sound quality is always bad along the walls, so give your head at least 2-3 feet of room behind it.

Have fun,
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post #8 of 8 Old 09-11-2014, 01:55 PM
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On a Pentile display, red and blue is sub-sampled. From what I understand, Pentile will not only fail 1920x1080 on a test chart with fully saturated red/blue and black diagonal lines.

RGB horizontal stripes:

Rxx Rxx Rxx
xxx xxx xxx
Rxx Rxx Rxx

RGB vertical stripes:

Rxx xxx Rxx
Rxx xxx Rxx
Rxx xxx Rxx

RGB diagonal stripes:

Rxx xxx xxx
xxx Rxx xxx
xxx xxx Rxx

Pentile hortizontal stripes:

Rx xx Rx xx Rx
xx xx xx xx xx
Rx xx Rx xx Rx

Pentile vertical stripes:

Rx xx Rx
xx xx xx
Rx xx Rx
xx xx xx
Rx xx Rx

Pentile diagonal stripes. The second case (BGRG) fails and red gets re-sampled as green from what I have read:

Rx xx xx
xx Rx xx
xx xx Rx

or

xx xx xx
xx xx xx
xx xx xx

Most sources are chroma subsampled because the eye can only see black/white in high resolution. For example, Bluray is 4:2:0 which is essentially 1920x1080 black/white and 960x540 color.

Last edited by Matrix7; 09-11-2014 at 01:58 PM.
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