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Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Best Day
05:31 PM Liked: 0
post #1 of 13
10-21-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 2014
Hi all, I'm a brand new forum member and proud owner of a new Samsung pn64f8500. I love the picture on the tv. It is absolutely amazing. The problem I'm having is that I can see the 60hz display rate for tv and cable. It appears as flicker just like old crt computer displays that have a low refresh rate. I don't have the problem with Blu Ray as the Smooth Cinema option takes the 24 fps feed and outputs it as 96 fps (or so I have read on the internet). But with that option on with Blu Rays I have no flicker. I have read other threads on this same problem on the and other forums but I have been unable to find a solution. I have called Samsung tech support several times and I have been pushed up the support ladder several times. I am now waiting for a call back from their support. I have played with many of the menu options with no success. Does anyone have any suggestions? I would hate to have to return this tv.

Bill
HunterKen7's Avatar HunterKen7
08:37 AM Liked: 0
post #2 of 13
10-22-2014 | Posts: 27
Joined: Aug 2014
Someone can correct me, but I think what you are seeing is normal for plasmas. You might just be more sensitive to it than others. I can detect the "flicker" as well on bright scenes and it is something you just need to accept.

Mind you, back in the day, I could immediately tell from across the room if someone was running their CRT monitor lower than 85 Hz. My friends thought I was mad and couldn't tell the difference from 60Hz.
Cozmo85's Avatar Cozmo85
09:02 AM Liked: 71
post #3 of 13
10-22-2014 | Posts: 428
Joined: Dec 2006
Yea, when i first got my 8500 on screens full of white i would notice a slight flicker but i no longer notice it after about 50 hours.
Best Day
06:04 PM Liked: 0
post #4 of 13
10-22-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 2014
HunterKen7, I'm the same as you. Back in the day I could tell if a monitor was below 72hz from across the room. The several times that I went to Best Buy to look at the TV before buying they were running movies on it, so I never saw the flicker.

I still haven't heard back from Samsung tech support. I really don't want to return the tv but I refuse to see flicker when 90% of what I watch is cable recordings. I'm very bummed, I love the TV.

I don't understand why plasmas in general can't display 60i inputs flicker free. They take a 24p signal and display it as 96p with no flicker. Why can't they take a 60i signal and display it as 90p instead of 60p? Am I missing something here? I'm not an engineer, but this sounds like a very simple fix. I'm hoping I can still get a fix from Samsung before Monday when I have to return the TV.

Bill

PS Cozmo85, I have since gone to Best Buy and I have seen the f8500 playing video. It flickered just like my unit and I'm sure this display unit has way more than 50 hours on it. I'm not going to keep an almost $3,000 TV and hope the picture gets better. There are too many other options available. I think I'm going to have to buy an LED TV to hold me over till OLED prices come down.
RWetmore's Avatar RWetmore
06:43 PM Liked: 93
post #5 of 13
10-22-2014 | Posts: 3,342
Joined: Jan 2006
Bummer.
AMartin56's Avatar AMartin56
08:25 PM Liked: 94
post #6 of 13
10-22-2014 | Posts: 1,325
Joined: Aug 2005
I only watch movies on my F8500 in 96hz mode (for football or anything with logos I use the LED in the living room) so I don't see flicker in any normal content. However I do see it on full screen white test slides.
Best Day
11:34 AM Liked: 0
post #7 of 13
10-24-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 2014
Does anyone know what refresh rates the f8500 will accept at 1080? Maybe I could send the 60i signal to a receiver that would then send the f8500 a higher refresh rate? Maybe 90i or 90p and the f8500 will display that so there is no flicker. Has anyone ever tried this?






Bill
Best Day
02:09 PM Liked: 0
post #8 of 13
10-24-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 2014
Never mind, I found the manual and the TV only accepts 60hz at 1080. I talked to Samsung level 2 support and they were no help. I guess I'm returning the TV. I'm probably going to get the Vizio P70. It will be a little bigger but definitely not as good of a picture. But it should hold me over a couple of years till OLED prices come down. They I'll move it to the patio and buy a new OLED!


Bill
tom669's Avatar tom669
03:52 PM Liked: 131
post #9 of 13
10-24-2014 | Posts: 977
Joined: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Day View Post
Does anyone know what refresh rates the f8500 will accept at 1080? Maybe I could send the 60i signal to a receiver that would then send the f8500 a higher refresh rate?
Even if you could do this it would result in judder. You'd need to display at 120Hz, which these TVs do not support.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt
04:31 PM Liked: 1173
post #10 of 13
10-24-2014 | Posts: 5,156
Joined: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterKen7 View Post
Someone can correct me, but I think what you are seeing is normal for plasmas. You might just be more sensitive to it than others. I can detect the "flicker" as well on bright scenes and it is something you just need to accept.

Mind you, back in the day, I could immediately tell from across the room if someone was running their CRT monitor lower than 85 Hz. My friends thought I was mad and couldn't tell the difference from 60Hz.
blessed/cursed with the ability to see higher than average frame rates.


I don't see any flicker on my f8500, but I can detect it in my peripheral vision. so I'm sure it's there, if you're eyes are able to see at a higher frame rate.


there's a story about Babe Ruth not being able to go to movies because he could see the frames. probably helped him pick out the difference between a curve and a fast ball though...
Josh128's Avatar Josh128
06:55 AM Liked: 89
post #11 of 13
10-25-2014 | Posts: 443
Joined: Nov 2013
The flicker issue is a curious one for these plasmas. I say this because its very rare that I see flicker on my plasmas, but I can clearly perceive flicker at 60hz refresh on PC CRTs, which is why I use 85Hz. On my plasmas, flicker is visible only very rarely-- every so often on certain content and usually out of the corner of my eye.

Last night I was watching my son play some Xbox 360 (CV: Lords of Shadow) on a 51F4500. Its a beautiful game, and he was playing in a darkened room. I was purposefully looking for flicker, and there was none in any scene. None whatsoever- it looked as solid as my 85hz CRT on my PC.

Its rare I see screen flicker on any of my 3 plasmas, but curiously, the reason I DONT use cinema smooth on my 51F5300 is because when I enabled it for Blu Ray, I could clearly see some flicker on many scenes. When I would turn it off, the flicker would cease. Very strange as you would think a 96Hz refresh would be less prone to visible flicker than 60hz!

One test that can be used-- that I used to use with CRTs, is to film the screen with a 60hz camcorder-- on a 60hz CRT, you can clearly see a rolling line going from top to bottom (or bottom to top) of the display, as both devices are 60hz, but their frames are not exactly syncronized with each other. Due to the nature of CRT, which refreshes the screen in a "wiping" motion, this rolling line is visible as it, I believe, is the leading or trailing end of a screen refresh "wipe".

Im very curious to see what the plasmas look like when I do this, as they do use a 600hz sub-field drive (which frankly, Im still not sure about how that works). Also, plasmas do not update the screen in vertical "wipes" as CRTs do. I have a feeling the plasma will not show any artifacts.

Its very possible that some plasmas, due to brightness settings, or cell light, may be more prone to visible flicker than others. If anyone had a high speed camera, some interesting experiments could be done in testing this.
Best Day
01:16 PM Liked: 0
post #12 of 13
10-25-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 2014
As per the comment of 90hz introducing jutter, I don't think that is true. The TV is now displaying two frames in a row that are exactly the same since video is shot in 30fps. At 90hz the TV would just make a third frame copy of the first two frames. Is this correct? I'm by no means an expert but I believe that is how it works.


Bill
Josh128's Avatar Josh128
06:55 PM Liked: 89
post #13 of 13
10-25-2014 | Posts: 443
Joined: Nov 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Day View Post
As per the comment of 90hz introducing jutter, I don't think that is true. The TV is now displaying two frames in a row that are exactly the same since video is shot in 30fps. At 90hz the TV would just make a third frame copy of the first two frames. Is this correct? I'm by no means an expert but I believe that is how it works.


Bill
Not judder, but refresh flicker. Extremely light and fast brightness changes or "flashes". Its definitely true that I experienced that the first time out when playing with Cinemasmooth, but admittedly I havent used it since because some others here have cited reduction in black levels and PQ with it enabled.
Gear in this thread - f8500 by PriceGrabber.com
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