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post #1 of 20 Old 07-10-2015, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Need a good gaming Plasma! Suggestions?

Hello all! I am coming from a CRT tube television, but unfortunately the Xbox One does not support composite, and my tube is going out anyway. Time for a new television! I have tried two 4K televisions and spent over $1,500 on each one before returning them, but I had to take them back because in many ways, for the price, it was a complete downgrade from what I had. Not an upgrade.

1. Jutter. On these LCD televisions, turning on game mode to have a decent input time, gets rid of all the processing that makes up for the jutterr issue inherent with LCD televisions. It's choppy when it comes to menus and maps, which literally results in headache.

2. Input lag. The Samsung got down to 30ms, which I guess would be okay if there was no jutter. But still, coming from my CRT, any input lag is disgusting. I can really only noticed on games that are third person, but it's maddening.

3. Headache. For some reason, even with brightness and backlight and contrast reduced dramatically, my eyes burn within 2 minutes of looking at the screen. With my tube television, that is just not the case and I can watch TV for hours. Perhaps the LED lights make my eyes sensitive, or it's all of the jutter or extra processing my mind can notice.

Do you think trying a plasma television could fix this? From what I have read, it definitely sounds like it. Any suggestions on a good 48 inch or 50 inch television set that would be a good fit for me based on these priorities? Preferably 48 inch. You have no idea, I would appreciate the input so much! Preferably something I could return if I didn't like it. Nothing more than 1 or 2 grand in price.

I have realized I don't need the latest and greatest. As long as its a smidge better than the TV I had before, I will be fine. I'm just not going to pay a lot of money to get a downgrade in video/motion quality. As far as color goes, I could give a rats ass. Also note I'm almost always playing in a dimly lit room. Other things I like would be, awesome black levels, and no uniformity issues. But those are not priority, as long as they are not huge issues that stand out. The key here is to get an upgrade that does not strain my eyes or appear to be choppy or inconsistent.

All in all, I'm looking to try out a Plasma TV if it sounds like that would be a good fit for me. Most important is that videogames are not choppy or blurry with jutter, and that I don't get burning eyes. Input lag needs to be at least 30ms, but I would so much prefer lower lag. Black level, uniformity, and lack of artifacts, would be other nice features. Any ideas??? Thanks so much!

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post #2 of 20 Old 07-10-2015, 03:59 PM
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If you can find a plasma, get one. Shouldn't be too hard to find a Samsung from last year still.
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post #3 of 20 Old 07-10-2015, 06:45 PM
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The latest plasmas that would be best for gaming and have the best input lag would be the 2013 s60/s64 and 2012 u50/ut50/st50. The s60 still has around 30 to 34 ms input lag. U50/ut had around 27. The 2011 models, specifically the s30 had around 16 ms lag (i think), but you'd be sacrifising noticeable black levels of the 2012 and 2013 models. The s30 probably still has better black levels compared to your CRT though. You can probably find one dirt cheap on craigslist.
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post #4 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 12:48 AM
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So, you basically want a dim plasma. Congratulations! There are tons of plasmas that are geared towards your viewing habit. Me, I really liked 300 cd/m2 of brightness output from the Sony LCD I used to own 7 years ago. Sure, our RCA CRT TV we've purchased in 1994 wasn't particularly bright, but the later Sony Wegas were very bright and I like that. If I wasn't a brightness nut, I would have been happy with my Panasonic S64.

Seems like PWM noise, input lag and judder control are your utmost priority, so let me explain.

Motion performance is divided by two factors : response time and sample and hold reduction. Fortunately, plasmas are good at both, but it's still not up to CRT level. The biggest annoyance from plasmas/OLEDs is 30hz judder common in console games. Judder amplifies when response time is too good relative to the persistence. The LG OLEDs for example have great response time, but no PWM flickering in between, so they have full 16.8ms pixel persistence time. So, even though both OLEDs and LCDs have 300 lines of motion resolution, sample & hold will be worse on OLEDs, which makes judder much worse.

The same is true for plasmas. Not all plasmas are created equal when it comes to persistence. For example, I still miss my LG plasma when it comes to judder. It had the best persistence so judder didn't bother me much. Not so with the Panasonic S60. It has horrible persistance, so judder is more painful. The Samsung F5300 is between the LG and the Panasonic. Not really free of judder, but still hella better than the S60. For the record, CNet lists my LG plasma's motion resolution as 800 lines while both the S60 and the F5300 gets 700 lines, but one look at Rting's reviews and not all 700 lines rated plasmas function identical.

Today's HDTVs are much worse than older TVs when it comes to input lag, so you will either have to get used to it or go for the best. Like Halo3492 has said, the U50 will have the best input lag of all recent plasmas. The second best is the S60. Slight behind, but still in the third place is the Samsung F5300. I know you're coming from a CRT, so ideally, it would be best to get a TV that has one frame (16hz) delay or less, but so far, only select Sony LCDs from last year boast such low input lag.

As for PWM noise, I can't quantify, so I will have speak from experience, but my Panasonic S64 is the absolute worst when it comes to PWM. Two hours of gameplay and I already get eyestrain. The Samsungs and the LG were much better in that regard. Maybe it has to do with the way Panasonic plasmas utilize PWM to maximize black level, I don't know, but I did notice Panasonic plasmas usually flicker more than the Korean brands.

So demo a few plasmas of your interest, and decide which one you like the best. Also add the 8G Kuro. They have great black level and 20ms of input lag.
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post #5 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I really really really don't get it. Its a bunch of bullSHlT. To play the new games that are coming out, I have to get the new system. And for the new system to work, I have to buy a new TV that's not good with the new systems. It really makes no sense. Its like my only option is to downgrade. & I don't see how this doesn't bother other people? I mean maybe it's just me. Maybe I need to give up television and video games. That's what I thought, but then I went back to my tube television and started liking video games again. Then I bought a new television again, and then I learned my lesson once again. Maybe I just need to go back to my xbox 360 and load up on those $5 games now. I mean I just can't do it. What a headache! I thought if you threw down thousands of dollars, you could just get a high-end television and not have to worry about flaws. But no, with the new technology every television has flaws. Lol what the hell? I thought we would have figured all of this out by now.

I was pretty sure I read on CNET that judder was an LCD issue, and just a side effect of the technology, something that plasma didn't have an issue with. Same with input lag. Now I'm reading that's not the case? On a couple different sources. Also reading that plasma has burn in issues, but maybe not with the newer ones. And also hearing that plasmas have line issues. What in the actual hell? And these are the TVs I'm going to be forced by Microsoft to buy? I thought this was supposed to be an upgrade. Yeah if I'm just watching movies, sure. But I'm not. Gaming is the only reason I'm getting a new TV. Because the game system says these are the ones I need. The ones that don't play the games as intended. What?

And yes the 30 frames thing is on to something. But a lot of the good games are going to be 30 frames. That explains why Call of Duty looks just fine. But then I put on the Witcher, and it does not. People tell me that's just because the game is 30 frames per second, I'm on the map moving around and you can't see any of the icons or read any of it unless you stop moving the map. And the mini map during gameplay is extremely choppy as it turns. But then if you turn off game mode, the map scrolls smoothly and looks the way it should. The way things had appeared on my tube television. Where you can read them while you are scrolling. Its efficient. And I don't buy the idea that this means the TV is the one making it look better and adding in frames. No. I can clearly read things now without game mode. The TV can add frames, but it definitely cannot add information from the source that previously was not there. It's simply compensating for the judder issues that I understood were inherent with LCD technology.. Which is why you get judder when game mode is off, because now you're seeing what the LCD looks like in real life, without the added processing, right? So what in the hell? It's lose lose. The only way to get decent input lag on my SUHD, was to turn off all the processing and get a choppy video game. This just isn't working out for me. What is the recommended solution here?

Now I'm hearing that plasma has these same issues? And even with the brightness and contrast and backlight all the way down, the LED was burning my eyes. And yes I noticed the horrible viewing angles. I lay down on the couch to watch Netflix and not only do my eyes start to burn after 5 minutes, but Jims hair is completely grey. With my tube, I was able to just lay my ass down and fall asleep watching some Netflix.

You can't be serious. What do I do? Is plasma my solution? Like I said, if I could get no judder, no burning eyes, and 30ms or less, and HDMI port, I will be in good shape.

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. I look forward to hearing more hopefully.

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post #6 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 08:49 AM
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You could try an HDMI to composite converter and keep using your old TV.


This converter is cheaper:


http://www.amazon.com/Portta-100HC-C...Q9SHM4NP42Y25Y


This one is more highly rated:


http://www.amazon.com/enKo-products-...site+converter


These converters aren't always a cure-all. We use an HDMI to S-video converter on one of our devices, and it introduces some visible noise into the picture. We put up with it because it is our lowest resolution device, and we don't use it every day.


But it might be worth a try.


I can second the idea of buying a cheap, used 50" 8G Pioneer Kuro (a 5010FD) from eBay or Craigslist. Before I stored it in the basement last year, our 5010FD was very heavily used for all genres of gaming, for many years, by someone who now works in the video game industry full-time, and there was never a complaint about that TV. The Samsung 64F8500 that replaced it did draw some complaints initially, especially with Game Mode off, although Game Mode seemed to make it OK.

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post #7 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 04:17 PM
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My recommendation- go to Best Buy and have them look for a Samsung PN51F8500. It is a 51" from the last gen of plasmas that, along with Panasonic VT/ZT60s, are considered the best. Brand new they have been going for $2500 ($1400-1700 used), but I did a lot of research and found them at Best Buy for $1372 (after tax), brand new. Seriously, I didn't see them anywhere else for under $2500 brand new. The thing is there aren't many left, so it's doubtful your Best Buy will have one. You will have to ask them to look around at other districts. There are few left, but there still are some. I got 2, lol. Also, if you have a BB card, you can get 24-month, 0% financing as well, so then it really makes it cheap.
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post #8 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Believe me, I started out with the converter box. The text was impossible to read, and every once in awhile there would be consistency issues with the video, a line that separated the screen into two parts that were not in sync with each other.

My Best Buy had already stated that there were no plasma televisions. But I didn't have them go checking other locations. And yes I have the best buy card! Maybe we are on to something. Do you think plasma television would be a good solution for me? I have been hitting up people on Craigslist, but you don't get a warranty or return policy with them. There is a 50inch ST60 locally for $900, but I think I read the lag is over 70. I'm actually reading that's also the case with the televisions you've just suggested for me. How does this not bother other people? Maybe I'm just a more particular person.

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post #9 of 20 Old 07-11-2015, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
Believe me, I started out with the converter box. The text was impossible to read, and every once in awhile there would be consistency issues with the video, a line that separated the screen into two parts that were not in sync with each other.

My Best Buy had already stated that there were no plasma televisions. But I didn't have them go checking other locations. And yes I have the best buy card! Maybe we are on to something. Do you think plasma television would be a good solution for me? I have been hitting up people on Craigslist, but you don't get a warranty or return policy with them. There is a 50inch ST60 locally for $900, but I think I read the lag is over 70. I'm actually reading that's also the case with the televisions you've just suggested for me. How does this not bother other people? Maybe I'm just a more particular person.
Believe me, it bothers some of us, but we have to live with it if we want to have better black levels and overall picture quality. Me personally, don't mind input lag around 30ms for offline casual gaming like playing single player games/campaigns. This is coming from a person who played competitive shooters for almost a decade (cod2 and 4 back in the day, and halo since 2008 to present day MCC) but for that i still use my 24" Acer H243H TN panel and will continue to do so when playing competitively.

You have to pick your poison. Better blacks (2012/13 pannys) with 30ms input lag, or 2011 pannys with worse black but 20ms lag. Or try to find an 8 or 9g kuro which have equal and better blacks than 2011/12 pannys and slightly better or equal lag around 20ms. It seems like you're mostly concerned about lag. In that case i'd go for a panny s30 which has the best lag of the pannys and will still have better ANSI contrast compared to your CRT. It would be the cheapest option too. Ive seen the 42" s30 for $200 on CL, and the 50" for less than $400.

Where are you located? I can help you search.
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post #10 of 20 Old 07-12-2015, 12:25 AM
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@ Shibby


You might get one of These HD CRT 16:9 monsters with hdmi Inputs. So you still have your crt glory, but also hd hdmi Inputs.


There were some offerings of toshiba, Samsung, Sony and Philips.


32 Inch, and you should get them very cheap. But they are heavy Monsters...


http://www.cnet.com/news/photos-from...televisions/5/
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post #11 of 20 Old 07-12-2015, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
I really really really don't get it. Its a bunch of bullSHlT. To play the new games that are coming out, I have to get the new system. And for the new system to work, I have to buy a new TV that's not good with the new systems. It really makes no sense. Its like my only option is to downgrade. & I don't see how this doesn't bother other people? I mean maybe it's just me. Maybe I need to give up television and video games. That's what I thought, but then I went back to my tube television and started liking video games again. Then I bought a new television again, and then I learned my lesson once again. Maybe I just need to go back to my xbox 360 and load up on those $5 games now. I mean I just can't do it. What a headache! I thought if you threw down thousands of dollars, you could just get a high-end television and not have to worry about flaws. But no, with the new technology every television has flaws. Lol what the hell? I thought we would have figured all of this out by now.

I was pretty sure I read on CNET that judder was an LCD issue, and just a side effect of the technology, something that plasma didn't have an issue with. Same with input lag. Now I'm reading that's not the case? On a couple different sources. Also reading that plasma has burn in issues, but maybe not with the newer ones. And also hearing that plasmas have line issues. What in the actual hell? And these are the TVs I'm going to be forced by Microsoft to buy? I thought this was supposed to be an upgrade. Yeah if I'm just watching movies, sure. But I'm not. Gaming is the only reason I'm getting a new TV. Because the game system says these are the ones I need. The ones that don't play the games as intended. What?

And yes the 30 frames thing is on to something. But a lot of the good games are going to be 30 frames. That explains why Call of Duty looks just fine. But then I put on the Witcher, and it does not. People tell me that's just because the game is 30 frames per second, I'm on the map moving around and you can't see any of the icons or read any of it unless you stop moving the map. And the mini map during gameplay is extremely choppy as it turns. But then if you turn off game mode, the map scrolls smoothly and looks the way it should. The way things had appeared on my tube television. Where you can read them while you are scrolling. Its efficient. And I don't buy the idea that this means the TV is the one making it look better and adding in frames. No. I can clearly read things now without game mode. The TV can add frames, but it definitely cannot add information from the source that previously was not there. It's simply compensating for the judder issues that I understood were inherent with LCD technology.. Which is why you get judder when game mode is off, because now you're seeing what the LCD looks like in real life, without the added processing, right? So what in the hell? It's lose lose. The only way to get decent input lag on my SUHD, was to turn off all the processing and get a choppy video game. This just isn't working out for me. What is the recommended solution here?

Now I'm hearing that plasma has these same issues? And even with the brightness and contrast and backlight all the way down, the LED was burning my eyes. And yes I noticed the horrible viewing angles. I lay down on the couch to watch Netflix and not only do my eyes start to burn after 5 minutes, but Jims hair is completely grey. With my tube, I was able to just lay my ass down and fall asleep watching some Netflix.

You can't be serious. What do I do? Is plasma my solution? Like I said, if I could get no judder, no burning eyes, and 30ms or less, and HDMI port, I will be in good shape.

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. I look forward to hearing more hopefully.

The new consoles went from analogue to digital world. This is why you are now stuck with your crt.


I once had an HP IPS Monitor, and I got headaches just after minutes. Did some research , sent it back to amazon, and ordered an Benq led backlight flicker free monitor, which I absolutely love, I can sit hours before it, it is awesome. Before that I had an old lcd monitor without leds, it had the old CCFL backlight. So yes what you are talking is surely fast flickering LED backlight issue.


Lag wise also a HD CRT could have a bit of lag, because of digital image processing. Remind, you leave the analogue world.


Those HD CRT Tvs, you will get them very cheap. People are glad if someone picks it up, because they are really heavy.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-FD-Trin...item25a95aa076


http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHILIPS-30-I...item2c84f3a867


What crt tv do you own right now?
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post #12 of 20 Old 07-12-2015, 05:43 PM
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The most CRT-like image you can get will come from a Samsung PNxxF4500, their latest 720p model. Fantastic set, has 37ms lag when measured with a Bodnar tester.

The 5300 models are 1080p, with identical lag.

I have both and both are fantastic. I use the F4500s for gaming (retro and current) and the 5300 for living room TV and Blu-Ray. The best bang for the buck TVs ever made in my opinion. You can probably snag used sets of either from Craigslist for under $500.

Displays: Samsung PN51F5300BFXA, PN51F4500AFXA, PN51F4500BFXA

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post #13 of 20 Old 07-12-2015, 10:25 PM
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I also recommend the F4500. Got a 43" at best buy on sale for $250. Mind blowing for the price. Great set coming from a CRT.
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post #14 of 20 Old 07-13-2015, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
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I also recommend the F4500. Got a 43" at best buy on sale for $250. Mind blowing for the price. Great set coming from a CRT.

250 $, what a bargain.


:-)
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post #15 of 20 Old 07-13-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
I really really really don't get it. Its a bunch of bullSHlT. To play the new games that are coming out, I have to get the new system. And for the new system to work, I have to buy a new TV that's not good with the new systems. It really makes no sense. Its like my only option is to downgrade. & I don't see how this doesn't bother other people?

http://www.hdfury.com/i-need-to-convert-hdmi-to-yuv/

If you want to still keep your old CRT, just buy the HDCP stripper + HDMI to YUV converter and call it a day. I own one too, but mine is designed to output in DSUB-15 VGA because when I was purchasing the HDFury 4 years ago, Sony GDM-FW900 computer monitor was what I had. The 360 didn't have any problems, but the PS3 did, hence my purchase and now PS3 is working fine too.

Another alternative is buying something like Sony WEGA XBR960 that does have HDMI input, as recommended by other members here.

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But no, with the new technology every television has flaws. Lol what the hell? I thought we would have figured all of this out by now.
You should know newer does not always mean better. Is the SACD version of Pink Floyd Dark Side of the oon superior to the Quadraphonic turntable original? Is the Weinstein Bluray version of Hard Boiled superior to the Laserdisc version? Does Halo3 have superior positional audio than Halo2? The answer to all three questions is no.

CRTs were not replace because they had antiquated technology. Plasmas were not dead because they were technologically inferior to LCDs. CRTs, because of their analog nature, have excellent input lag. Today's flat panels require video processing to get the picture rolling, and this is rather time consuming, hence, more input lag than CRTs.

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I was pretty sure I read on CNET that judder was an LCD issue, and just a side effect of the technology, something that plasma didn't have an issue with.
What CNET meant by judder is 3:2 pulldown judder, something that must be done to fit 24hz into 60hz space. There are two types of judder. The 3:2 pulldown judder, and frame doubling judder. Whenever majority of people think of judder, they think of the former, but gamers are more focused about the latter as we gamers don't need to suffer from former to begin with. Even for movies, frame doubling judder is evident. Take my Panasonic S64 plasma. Mine can accept 24hz and output in 48hz. Because the original was 24hz, not 48hz, extra frame must be created and this creates frame doubling judder, completely identical in procedure to games when 30FPS games must be recreated in 60hz space.

BTW, this thing has been going on with CRTs too. It's because CRTs have such superior motion resolution that they can combat judder much better than plasmas and OLEDs. Still, you know too that even for CRTs, 60 FPS is more ideal than 30.

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Same with input lag. Now I'm reading that's not the case?
Plasmas were never superior to LCDs in input lag to begin with. It was only since beginning with frame interpolation technology being implemented into LCDs that LCDs have shot up input lag tremendously. Plasmas have remained still, but with all kinds of picture enhancement procession, 3D, etc. going on at both technology, that was when both LCDs and plasmas had pretty much identical input lag.

I can stand by my opinion because my first HDTV purchase was a Sony LCD 6 years ago. It had blazingly fast input lag, I wasn't even aware this issue would come back to bite my ass years later.

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On a couple different sources. Also reading that plasma has burn in issues, but maybe not with the newer ones.
You're right. I have owned 4 plasmas so far and none of them has had burn in despite heavy gaming usage, and one plasma (LG) I owned had absolutely no IR too. I found that interesting as I've always heard LGs were the worst when it comes to IR.

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And also hearing that plasmas have line issues. What in the actual hell?
Line bleeding is when plasmas does not give adequate power, so it becomes a straight line. Happens more with Panasonic plasmas than Samsung/LG plasmas from my experience. For example, I barely saw any line bleeding on my Samsung F5300.

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And these are the TVs I'm going to be forced by Microsoft to buy? I thought this was supposed to be an upgrade. Yeah if I'm just watching movies, sure. But I'm not. Gaming is the only reason I'm getting a new TV. Because the game system says these are the ones I need. The ones that don't play the games as intended. What?
The thing is, we gamers are not TV manufacturer's target audience. It's no different here on AVSForum. Movie buffs and home theater enthusiasts vastly outnumber us here. I have one embarassing tale to tell too. I wanted to own a kickass surround sound system for Xbox360 and PS3. So I started researching from this forum and get many people's advice, and I've finally managed to build my 5.1 system, complete with dual 15inch subwoofers, an Emo pre-pro that sounded better than any receivers I've used so far, complete with huge monoblocks. And my verdict : "Why does my system sound so much better for movies than games?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
And yes the 30 frames thing is on to something. But a lot of the good games are going to be 30 frames. That explains why Call of Duty looks just fine. But then I put on the Witcher, and it does not. People tell me that's just because the game is 30 frames per second, I'm on the map moving around and you can't see any of the icons or read any of it unless you stop moving the map. And the mini map during gameplay is extremely choppy as it turns.
Pretty much the reason why I got rid of my Sony LCD. I was coming from a CRT too, so I still painfully remember how horrible its motion performance was. I played 60 fps games like Gran Turismo HD and Ridge Racer, and to my disbelief, whenever I make a sharp turn, it looked more like a 30 FPS game. Horrified, I tried 30 FPS racers and OMG! Now it looked more like 15 FPS games! At that time, I was shouting to myself : "It's a deja vu back to the Daytona USA for Sega Saturn days again!"

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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
But then if you turn off game mode, the map scrolls smoothly and looks the way it should. The way things had appeared on my tube television. Where you can read them while you are scrolling. Its efficient.
Well then, your standard for motion performance is not really high fortunately. Even with frame interpolation, I can still painfully see motion blur. Smoother blur, but still a blur. I am glad I've ditched LCDs long ago and never looked back. Plasmas are far better compromise, although I'm still not happy with its motion performance in relation to CRTs.

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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
And I don't buy the idea that this means the TV is the one making it look better and adding in frames. No. I can clearly read things now without game mode. The TV can add frames, but it definitely cannot add information from the source that previously was not there.
Believe it because LCDs has never deleted information. It's just LCDs have horrible motion performance your eyes were not able to catch.

This is the basic idea. Motion performance today is comprised of two factors : response time and motion resolution, as I've told you previously.

I'm currently playing Romance of Three Kingdoms XI, and I've done motion performance comparison between laptop TN monitor and my Panasonic plasma. So, I'll make an explanation based on that game.

http://s1196.photobucket.com/user/zh...lords.jpg.html

Now see this image. There is a city called "Xu Chang"

I scroll the image and concentrate on this latter, and this is what I observed.

Laptop monitor : There is an after image of "Xu Chang" following the real "Xu Chang" text. It's nasty.
Panasonic plasma : No after image of "Xu Chang" follows.

There is another phenomenal observed

Laptop monitor : While scrolling, I absolutely failed to read the text as "Xu Chang"
Panasonic plasma : I succeeded in able to read the text as "Xu Chang" while moving.

Ability to see an afterimage following the real material : this is classified as "response time" performance
Ability to see the text while in motion : this is classified as "motion resolution/dynamic resolution/sample and hold reduction" etc.

For games, the latter is more important than the former, that's why you were able to read the text when frame interpolation is engaged. Frame interpolation does improve motion resolution up to 1080, when only 300 lines can be obtained in game mode.

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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
The only way to get decent input lag on my SUHD, was to turn off all the processing and get a choppy video game. This just isn't working out for me. What is the recommended solution here?
You simply have to accept such compromise. All the LCD owners do. I don't, hence all my recent purchases have been only plasmas. The Sony LCDs are the only exceptions as they can engage BFI/strobbing while in game mode, but you will get completely dim picture (under 50 cd/m2) and 5ms more input lag, and harsh flickering much more annoying than plasma's PWM flicker.

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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
Now I'm hearing that plasma has these same issues? And even with the brightness and contrast and backlight all the way down, the LED was burning my eyes. And yes I noticed the horrible viewing angles. I lay down on the couch to watch Netflix and not only do my eyes start to burn after 5 minutes, but Jims hair is completely grey. With my tube, I was able to just lay my ass down and fall asleep watching some Netflix.
Seems like you're more sensitive to LED PWMs than plasma PWM. For example, with all the talk here saying that only LCDs can be used for PC use and plasmas can't because of burn-in and ABL, my experience was actually the contrary. I couldn't use the Sony LCD for PC use because it hurt my eyes so much, so I dropped brightness all the way down, and now the text was not sharp and not legible because LCDs don't have good contrast ratio to sustain low luminance. It was a complete opposite experience for plasmas. Not only I can read text, I could also come really close to the screen and not get my eyes burned either. My Panasonic plasma for example can remain sharp despite having 1/6th of brightness to my Sony LCD, because of vastly superior black level.

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Originally Posted by shibby12 View Post
You can't be serious. What do I do? Is plasma my solution? Like I said, if I could get no judder, no burning eyes, and 30ms or less, and HDMI port, I will be in good shape.

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. I look forward to hearing more hopefully.
As of right now, plasmas are your ONLY solution. OLEDs currently have same 300 lines of motion resolution as LCDs, but still pull ahead of LCDs because of vastly superior response time. OLEDs are still behind plasmas IMO.

Start with a commercial Panasonic plasma. That will give you great black levels, great input lag, and great motion performance.
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panasonic p55vt60 for sale (albany, ny area)

I'm not allowed to post a link at my current forum level.. but you could find all my posts on my profile.

A Panasonic P55VT60 Plasma 3D HDTV is for sale for $1500 or best offer. More details in the OP.
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I use the TV for gaming and other HD media with no problems. I had a similar search as you, I ended up going with this specific model. It's size is a perk.
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2 Quick Questions: Why are the OLDER plasmas better with input lag...and why are they ALL SLOW compared to older CRTs ?

If this related to the fixed-pixel nature of a flat-panel ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipsPhanatic View Post
2 Quick Questions: Why are the OLDER plasmas better with input lag...and why are they ALL SLOW compared to older CRTs ?

If this related to the fixed-pixel nature of a flat-panel ?

It seems to be that the newer the HDTV, the more extra processing it possesses which means the greater the input lag. Only Sony has really been keeping their input lag under control lately, but that's because they are probably the only TV manufacturer that keeps gaming in mind when designing their equipment.


And as mentioned before, moving from CRT, to HDTV, you are moving from an analog system to a digital one, where there is a lot more signal processing going on.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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I also recommend the F4500. Got a 43" at best buy on sale for $250. Mind blowing for the price. Great set coming from a CRT.


Damn lucky buy.
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