F8500 will be my last high end TV ever, and I'm finally glad plasma is gone - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #1 of 282 Old 03-19-2016, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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F8500 will be my last high end TV ever, and I'm finally glad plasma is gone

A few months out of warranty my F8500 has developed permanent IR.

It happened after a very innocuous 5 or 6 hour 4:3 viewing session (Star Trek Voyager, iirc). I turned the TV on the next day and the 4:3 pillar on the right side was very noticeable. The one on the left was visible as well but not nearly as bad. I've had this issue before so I initially didn't think too much of it, but even after 2 days of full screen viewing it remained very prominent, especially in bright scenes. I decided to do a 24 hour screen wipe which had always taken care of any IR I've had. No effect - the IR was exactly as visible as before.

I let it run longer but even after 2 straight days of wiping the IR hasn't dissipated in the slightest. I have to assume at this point it's permanent. The TV is still usable but to my eyes, for all practical purposes, it's ruined. I can't unsee the IR. It's always going to be there. In bright scenes, like daytime beach scenes in LOST, it dominates the screen.

I'm very frustrated right now. Why in the hell should I have to forego 4:3 viewing on a TV I paid $3500 for? I watch many 4:3 programs. I love the picture quality of plasma but I now know beyond a doubt it was a flawed technology until the end. IR was lessened but it was never completely eradicated. There's no way Samsung will help me with this and why should they? The set is out of warranty.

Unless I get to the point where money is no object for me I'm out on high end TVs. Strictly mid-range from now on. What do I do with this thing? Maybe I can sell it locally to someone who's blind in one eye.

Good luck to all of you. May your plasmas treat you well for many years to come.
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post #2 of 282 Old 03-19-2016, 07:13 PM
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Screen Wipes don't seem to be very effective at removing temporary IR. The one on my Panasonics didn't have any real effect

Can you play a slideshow of High Def Wallpaper Images? That has worked on my GT50.

Also, running one of these may help:

http://www.jscreenfix.com/screensaver.html

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post #3 of 282 Old 03-19-2016, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll give it a go. What have I got to lose?


But I don't have high hopes. The IR is very prominent this time. The entire 4:3 pillar is slightly discolored from the rest of the screen. For some reason my set has always been prone to 4:3 IR issues.


I'm also weary of always having to worry about it. Lord knows I'm no TV engineer but I'm guessing that maybe the panel is starting to wear out? We know by now that not all of these sets have the same issues (buzz, anyone?). I may have gotten a weak panel in terms of image retention.


I was hoping I could enjoy this TV for 10 or more years but it most likely was not meant to be. But a little over TWO years? Come on, Samsung.
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post #4 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 09:35 AM
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philosophical debate...

but perhaps the problem is not that you bought a 'high end' tv, but that the market has killed the true 'high end' tv, and the 'mid-range' tvs that now top the price list aren't high enough quality.

as much as i hate hearing more about the kuro, seems like those guys got the best bang for their buck and they paid a heck of a lot more than we did...

i just don't feel that getting lower quality is going to relieve these kinds of issues. i personally feel like i would never go back to anything LESS than the f8500. the last tv i bought was low-mid range and i was planning my upgrade about 5 days after i got it home(no hassle free return on that one). i know i won't be happy from day one with a cheap tv, so it's not money saved, its money wasted for me.


on another note, i wonder what would happen if you displayed an image of bright white bars on the sides, and black in the center(opposite of normal 4:3 content). if IR is essentially uneven wearing of phosphors, maybe you can even it out a bit that way.

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post #5 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 09:37 AM
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I have a couple of VT60's. I have to handle them with kid gloves. It's frustrating, but I really like the picture quality. I bet most people that bought later generation plasma sets have no idea how prone they are to IR & Burn In. If not for this site, I would not have known. I have an older 2010 Panasonic S2 and my viewing habits on that set would probably be considered abuse by VT60 standards. I never had any issues with the S2, or at least none that I can see.
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post #6 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 10:01 AM
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Plasma and lots of black bar stuff is not a good combination. When buying a Plasma watching lots of black bar stuff will have consequences over time, should take three/four years though before problems start. When watching lots of black bar stuff LCd is the best choice...or buy a Plasma/LCd and use LCd for black bar stuff. Even a OLED should be able to handle black bar stuff these days.
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post #7 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 10:08 AM
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I never had a problem because I always ran gray bars on my Panasonic. I sure like the look of black bars better but I seldom used them. Now, I probably do not view an hour of bars a month unless it it top/bottom widescreen videos.
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post #8 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 10:09 AM
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Never had any IR issues with my S60. As a precaution, unless I continue to watch full screen content afterwards, I always run a 15 minute screen wash after displaying sports tickers, and any letter box content. I rarely watch 4:3 content, but I have the side bars set to light.

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post #9 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfster View Post
I never had a problem because I always ran gray bars on my Panasonic. I sure like the look of black bars better but I seldom used them. ...
Most of us bought plasmas for the great blacks, so it's tempting to run black bars -- especially when watching at night. But I switched to using grey bars on both of my plasmas after becoming aware of the potential for serious IR problems.
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post #10 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 03:45 PM
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Cool the house and run it bright? I have had image retention which didn't darken the picture though, using my computer. But as I cooled my place, and when I continued to run it with images which weren't necessarily dark; the IR went away. I don't know if it was software trickery. The Panasonic UT50 has software trickery, so I mention it. The F8500 runs hot and bright. PDP need either cool or dark rooms to operate well. And preferably both.

I am currently using a low end Samsung which hasn't faded much.
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post #11 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 04:37 PM
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This thread is why I refused to buy a plasma. I would rather deal with a crappy black level that looked okay in the daytime than to worry about destroying my set.

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post #12 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 04:58 PM
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Sorry it happened, but why the surprise.

Do not leave the TV in 4:3 mode for an extended period. The dark borders displayed on the left
and right/top and bottom of the screen may cause image retention (screen burn). This is not
covered by the warranty. This mode is available for PDP TVs only.
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post #13 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Sorry it happened, but why the surprise.

Do not leave the TV in 4:3 mode for an extended period. The dark borders displayed on the left
and right/top and bottom of the screen may cause image retention (screen burn). This is not
covered by the warranty. This mode is available for PDP TVs only.
They give that warning for LED and OLED as well. It's designed to allow manufacturers to cover their own asses. Unless you watch 4:3 exclusively it should be no more than a recommendation.

I say again - there's no way watching 5 hours (I don't even think it was that long, I think I only watched 4 episodes) of 4:3 should ruin a $3500 TV. No way. If that's the case plasma was more flawed that I ever could have imagined.
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post #14 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
They give that warning for LED and OLED as well. It's designed to allow manufacturers to cover their own asses. Unless you watch 4:3 exclusively it should be no more than a recommendation.

I say again - there's no way watching 5 hours (I don't even think it was that long, I think I only watched 4 episodes) of 4:3 should ruin a $3500 TV. No way. If that's the case plasma was more flawed that I ever could have imagined.
A PDP television is not easy to care for. They should come with better cooling systems, but they can last a lot longer than any LED-LCD/CCF-LCD/ OLED-LCD(really colored liquid crystal).

The glass is more resistant to heat, but there is more heat that has to be removed. LCDs don't produce much heat, unless they are very high end; but the slightest heat can ruin them much faster.

The F8500 produces too much heat at normal contrast settings. This would have been nice to know, or even better Samsung could have put a liquid cooling system in it. Practical, but a pipe-dream, nonetheless?

Perhaps, it was normal break-in [ie. burn down]. Plasma seems to fade the most in early use. The picture may burn down to the level of the burned image. How ugly is it?

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post #15 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
... I say again - there's no way watching 5 hours (I don't even think it was that long, I think I only watched 4 episodes) of 4:3 should ruin a $3500 TV. No way. If that's the case plasma was more flawed that I ever could have imagined.
Your situation does sound extreme and unusual based on all of the comments I've read from thousands of other plasma owners. I have no explanation for why a few owners have experienced serious IR problems from what they reported to be minimal hours of exposure while most haven't. I'd certainly be unhappy if that happened to me. I understood when buying my plasmas that they needed to be treated much more carefully than LCDs and have found that effort to be worthwhile for me.
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post #16 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Using Occam's razor I conclude the panel is wearing out prematurely.


When I first purchased the TV I was able to watch 4:3 content pretty much as long as I wanted to without ill effects. Then, all of a sudden - Bam.
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post #17 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
Using Occam's razor I conclude the panel is wearing out prematurely.


When I first purchased the TV I was able to watch 4:3 content pretty much as long as I wanted to without ill effects. Then, all of a sudden - Bam.
My simple solution would be that you watched too much 4:3 early on, therefore wearing out the center of your screen more than the sides. You just finally got to the point that you notice it. Once we see a flaw in our sets, we just can not unsee them and it really bothers us. Start using gray bars and full screen material and it will probably eventually fade.
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post #18 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
They give that warning for LED and OLED as well. It's designed to allow manufacturers to cover their own asses. Unless you watch 4:3 exclusively it should be no more than a recommendation.

I say again - there's no way watching 5 hours (I don't even think it was that long, I think I only watched 4 episodes) of 4:3 should ruin a $3500 TV. No way. If that's the case plasma was more flawed that I ever could have imagined.
Sorry, I understand your frustration...you may have had a weak panel to begin with. So you have not watched 4:3 often prior? This plasma is better than most @ image retention, but have to be careful about uneven aging.

This is my 1st plasma, I was lucky to see the effects of uneven aging 1st hand @ bestbuy from widescreen content, so I decided to keep the LCD for longer content that does not fill the screen or unable/unwilling to use the zoom.

Just watch it, it will probably improve.

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post #19 of 282 Old 03-20-2016, 07:21 PM
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Unfortunately, $3,500 is becoming the norm for a mid-range TV.
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post #20 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 01:45 AM
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Your situation does sound extreme and unusual based on all of the comments I've read from thousands of other plasma owners. I have no explanation for why a few owners have experienced serious IR problems from what they reported to be minimal hours of exposure while most haven't. I'd certainly be unhappy if that happened to me. I understood when buying my plasmas that they needed to be treated much more carefully than LCDs and have found that effort to be worthwhile for me.
Yeah, doesn't make sense....he's had the TV a while and NOW it develops IR/BI on some 4:3 watching ?

Breezy, how visible is the IR/BI....can you see it watching any TV program ?

I have some IR from CNBC that I must have developed the first few weeks/months watching CNBC on my new Samsung 5300 (next model down from the 8500). But I never would have seen the light image except I was 2 feet away and watching a white-ice hockey rink up-close. Normal viewing of an NHL contest from 8-10' away, I can't see it. Ditto other TV viewing -- no chance, even from 2' away (Sports, News, Movies, etc.).
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post #21 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, doesn't make sense....he's had the TV a while and NOW it develops IR/BI on some 4:3 watching ?

Breezy, how visible is the IR/BI....can you see it watching any TV program ?

I have some IR from CNBC that I must have developed the first few weeks/months watching CNBC on my new Samsung 5300 (next model down from the 8500). But I never would have seen the light image except I was 2 feet away and watching a white-ice hockey rink up-close. Normal viewing of an NHL contest from 8-10' away, I can't see it. Ditto other TV viewing -- no chance, even from 2' away (Sports, News, Movies, etc.).

It's VERY bad while watching hockey but noticeable always. I was watching the Hawks/Jets game the other day and it made me ill.


There's a pretty sharp line down the right hand side of the screen where the 4:3 pillar would begin. The rest of the pillar is slightly discolored from the rest of the screen.

The left side has a similar line but not nearly as noticeable. The pillar on the left side is not as badly discolored either.
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post #22 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 08:19 AM
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I've got a two year old 8500 and love it as well. Is using gray sidebars a guaranteed way to avoid this? Or does it just put off the (apparently) inevitable?
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post #23 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 08:37 AM
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Apparently gray bars are not the solution for the F8500 as another owner documented developing major IR from using gray bars on 4:3 content in the AVS Forum thread at this link. You might want to start with the first post in that link and follow bgx90's experience in trying to eliminate IR on an F8500 from watching a large amount of 4:3 content while using gray bars.
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post #24 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 08:48 AM
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I'm sorry to hear about your misfortunes. Hopefully you can get it cleared up.

If it's any consolation, LCD has come a long way. I love my $1000 65" Vizio E-Series, which is not a sentence I thought I'd ever say a few years ago.
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post #25 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
A few months out of warranty my F8500 has developed permanent IR.

It happened after a very innocuous 5 or 6 hour 4:3 viewing session (Star Trek Voyager, iirc). I turned the TV on the next day and the 4:3 pillar on the right side was very noticeable. The one on the left was visible as well but not nearly as bad. I've had this issue before so I initially didn't think too much of it, but even after 2 days of full screen viewing it remained very prominent, especially in bright scenes. I decided to do a 24 hour screen wipe which had always taken care of any IR I've had. No effect - the IR was exactly as visible as before.

I let it run longer but even after 2 straight days of wiping the IR hasn't dissipated in the slightest. I have to assume at this point it's permanent. The TV is still usable but to my eyes, for all practical purposes, it's ruined. I can't unsee the IR. It's always going to be there. In bright scenes, like daytime beach scenes in LOST, it dominates the screen.

I'm very frustrated right now. Why in the hell should I have to forego 4:3 viewing on a TV I paid $3500 for? I watch many 4:3 programs. I love the picture quality of plasma but I now know beyond a doubt it was a flawed technology until the end. IR was lessened but it was never completely eradicated. There's no way Samsung will help me with this and why should they? The set is out of warranty.

Unless I get to the point where money is no object for me I'm out on high end TVs. Strictly mid-range from now on. What do I do with this thing? Maybe I can sell it locally to someone who's blind in one eye.

Good luck to all of you. May your plasmas treat you well for many years to come.
I feel your pain breezy! As a gamer, I knew I was taking a gamble on plasma, but just couldn't resist the blowout prices of the highly rated Panasonic TC-P65ST60 in late 2014. I broke it in with hundreds of hours of Dnice's slides, use pixel orbiter, lowered contrast, avoided extended gaming sessions, & religiously used screen wipe.

However just weeks into a daily addiction to Destiny, the ST60 developed persistent IR of the static images. No matter how often or long I run the screen wipe or white noise videos, the IR remains. Now that I finally broke the addition, I am hoping the IR fades away... but I fear this is true burn-in.

Fortunately it's feint & located only in the far left corner; however even my wife (who cannot see the difference between this vaunted display & the $150 Black Friday special in our bedroom) notices the "stains" on the Panny.

Frankly I expected better from the leader in PDPs. Black level, schmack level, no wonder plasma went extinct! Here's to hoping 65" OLEDs will drop into the $1500 range sooner than later.
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post #26 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breezy2012 View Post
A few months out of warranty my F8500 has developed permanent IR.

It happened after a very innocuous 5 or 6 hour 4:3 viewing session (Star Trek Voyager, iirc). I turned the TV on the next day and the 4:3 pillar on the right side was very noticeable. The one on the left was visible as well but not nearly as bad. I've had this issue before so I initially didn't think too much of it, but even after 2 days of full screen viewing it remained very prominent, especially in bright scenes. I decided to do a 24 hour screen wipe which had always taken care of any IR I've had. No effect - the IR was exactly as visible as before.

I let it run longer but even after 2 straight days of wiping the IR hasn't dissipated in the slightest. I have to assume at this point it's permanent. The TV is still usable but to my eyes, for all practical purposes, it's ruined. I can't unsee the IR. It's always going to be there. In bright scenes, like daytime beach scenes in LOST, it dominates the screen.

I'm very frustrated right now. Why in the hell should I have to forego 4:3 viewing on a TV I paid $3500 for? I watch many 4:3 programs. I love the picture quality of plasma but I now know beyond a doubt it was a flawed technology until the end. IR was lessened but it was never completely eradicated. There's no way Samsung will help me with this and why should they? The set is out of warranty.

Unless I get to the point where money is no object for me I'm out on high end TVs. Strictly mid-range from now on. What do I do with this thing? Maybe I can sell it locally to someone who's blind in one eye.

Good luck to all of you. May your plasmas treat you well for many years to come.
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post #27 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:41 AM
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My personal opinion is the sidebars of the 4:3 are probably brighter than the middle of the screen. Dark images don't cause burn-in. The burn-in is in the middle of the screen. It might be normal burn down, or you might spend more money to cool your place and your plasma television.
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post #28 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:44 AM
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IR with Black?

I know this is going to make me seem like a total idiot. My understanding was that Image Retention and "burn-in" were a result from leaving an image on the screen for a "long" period of time. Since black is the absence of light, what image exactly are black side bars, and how does no light leave a burned-in image?
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post #29 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 09:47 AM
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Why not set 4:3 video to fill the screen instead of using bars? Yeah, you lose some of the image but then you don't have to worry about the side bars.

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post #30 of 282 Old 03-21-2016, 10:08 AM
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Bingo . I was doing this when conditioning my plasma 's .

Op 4k is not consider 'high end' but its alot still.

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