Official Pioneer 4360/5060/Elite Experiences, Set-up, Questions & Pictures Thread!!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by movie buff View Post

Eelton,

Thanks for that insight. One more quick question. How do SD channels look from either directv or cable? does the stretch mode degrade the picture any?

Well, stretch modes always degrade things a bit, but it's no worse here than on any other 16:9 monitor. I would say, however, that I miss the Fujitsu's automatic mode for 4:3 material, which senses letterboxed images and switches to zoom, and then switches back again when it senses full-screen 4:3 images.

The "cinema" mode (a bit of zoom and a bit of stretch) on the Pioneer seems best for watching 4:3 programming, even though that label seems to be a misnomer--cinema means movies, not TV, right?. Alternatively, if you watch 4:3 windowboxed, you have your choice between gray side bars and an auto setting, which is said to vary the color of the side bars according to programming. I expected different shades of gray, but what it does is actually repeat part of the image, which makes for a kaleidoscopic effect--and an unwatchable one at that. Are other Pioneers like this?

A few other notes:

(1) Now that it's dark out, I've looked at a blank screen in the dark. It looks the same as the Fujitsu did. In other words, this confirms the excellent job Pioneer has done with black level, equalling the previous best plasmas.

(2) I'm still torturing myself over settings. I am indeed gravitating toward -10 for color for most sources, no matter what Video Essentials tells me.

(3) I didn't unpack the speakers, as I don't plan to use them.

(4) I'm no expert, but based on all that I've read, I don't think there is any documented improvement in picture quality with the Elite models vs. the standard Pioneers. (Anyone should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

--Eric
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post #32 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunorth View Post

Wojtek - I am advised there is improved video processing in the 6GElite model. This info. provided by owner of our local high end AV shop yesterday. I have not confirmed same relative to any official specs or stats but believe it to be good info.. The current Elite vs consumer version has similar step up in video processing. Lets just say there will have to be material PQ improvement to justify the C$2K/$3K difference in price at MSRP here in the Great White North. In Canada the 4360 MSRP is basically $5K vs $7K for the Pro930. On the 5060 you're at $7K vs $10K on the Pro1130. I am advised that the PQ is better but not by a huge amount by the same AV owner who saw them at CEDIA.

A couple of things.......

Magnolia/BB in the US currently lists the MSRP for the 1130 at $9999. Pioneer announced MSRP at $6500. So don't give up hope yet! The Elite prices you see may still be based on the prior line.

Regarding processing in the Elites. I have heard it said that the 920 had better processing than the 4350 also. I'm not sure it's there. You would think that would be a solid marketing point, but you don't see it in their brochures or their specs. The closest thing I can find in the preliminary brochures for the new models is that the Elites have "Active DRE" and the 43/5060s don't list that in their respective brochures. The 4350 had DRE settings, so it may be an omission. (Eelton... maybe you can verify this... does your 5060 have a DRE or Active DRE setting?).

The biggest 43/5060 vs. 9/1130 differences I listed in this post, and MaliciousBraham in this post.

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post #33 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

Well, stretch modes always degrade things a bit, but it's no worse here than on any other 16:9 monitor. I would say, however, that I miss the Fujitsu's automatic mode for 4:3 material, which senses letterboxed images and switches to zoom, and then switches back again when it senses full-screen 4:3 images.

The "cinema" mode (a bit of zoom and a bit of stretch) on the Pioneer seems best for watching 4:3 programming, even though that label seems to be a misnomer--cinema means movies, not TV, right?. Alternatively, if you watch 4:3 windowboxed, you have your choice between gray side bars and an auto setting, which is said to vary the color of the side bars according to programming. I expected different shades of gray, but what it does is actually repeat part of the image, which makes for a kaleidoscopic effect--and an unwatchable one at that. Are other Pioneers like this?

The previous Pios had the same as you describe. I like Cinema mode best for 4:3 also. It is one of the positives for me over the Panny "Just" mode, which, IMO, distorts the picture too much.

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post #34 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:05 PM
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I guess it is wait and see, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. If the Elite doesnt offer any better PQ then there are big savings to be had going to the 4360 or 5060. Oh and check over on the RPTV thread, first write up on the new Sony SXRD XBR 50, doesnt appear to be the show stopper everyone was expecting. So back to Panny vs Pio consumer models, sounding like a draw to me.
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post #35 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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(Eelton... maybe you can verify this... does your 5060 have a DRE or Active DRE setting?).

I can't find anything about it in the menus or in the manual.

On what I assume is an unrelated note, I discovered that the key sequence for entering the service menu on past models also works on this one (although it took me about five tries--glad I didn't give up). I didn't change any settings in there, though, mostly out of fear.

--Eric
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post #36 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:14 PM
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I've got a couple of questions I wanted to bounce off this group.

I bought the PDP-5051 in the Best Buy clearance deal. It has 2 dead pixel that are towards the center of the viewing area, Best Buy said they would exchange it, but they don't have the PDP-5051 in stock anymore. They should be getting the PDP-5061 soon so they said if I get the extended warranty, I can get a replacement to the new PDP-5061 when it comes in.

So I have a couple of questions. Are dead pixels common or should I expect to not see any dead pixels? And then do you think it is worth it to go to the 5061 model? From the sounds of it, the black levels have been improved, which is something I've noticed being a small issue with the 5051 I have.
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post #37 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:25 PM
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eelton have you tried viewing any DVDs--particularly those with dark scenes?
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post #38 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post

I've got a couple of questions I wanted to bounce off this group.

I bought the PDP-5051 in the Best Buy clearance deal. It has 2 dead pixel that are towards the center of the viewing area, Best Buy said they would exchange it, but they don't have the PDP-5051 in stock anymore. They should be getting the PDP-5061 soon so they said if I get the extended warranty, I can get a replacement to the new PDP-5061 when it comes in.

So I have a couple of questions. Are dead pixels common or should I expect to not see any dead pixels? And then do you think it is worth it to go to the 5061 model? From the sounds of it, the black levels have been improved, which is something I've noticed being a small issue with the 5051 I have.

I have one stuck pixel on the 5061HD; it's stuck on green. I didn't notice it with normal viewing, only when I connected the plasma to my laptop and displayed solid color screens. I also had, if I recall correctly, two stuck pixels on my Fujitsu. I really only noticed them under similar circumstances, at least from a normal viewing distance.

I don't plan to do anything about it, nor did I with the Fujitsu. Some people would feel differently, and would seek perfection. However, even though I'm a stickler for picture quality, I don't find one or two stuck pixels to be a huge deal. Dead pixels are somewhat more visible, though.

--Eric
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post #39 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way, what does an extended warranty have to do with exchanging your 5051? I guess they're trying to get some extra money any way they can.

Also, if you're saying they'd give you the 5061 as a straight exchange, you may as well go for it in order to get the later model. If you have to pay the difference (plus the money for the extended warranty), you'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you.

--Eric
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post #40 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunorth View Post

I guess it is wait and see, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. If the Elite doesnt offer any better PQ then there are big savings to be had going to the 4360 or 5060. Oh and check over on the RPTV thread, first write up on the new Sony SXRD XBR 50, doesnt appear to be the show stopper everyone was expecting. So back to Panny vs Pio consumer models, sounding like a draw to me.

Yeah, I've been following the SXRD every now and then. I did see recently that alot of people are not seeing the extra $$ justification for these sets and are either going to the A10/A20 to save $$ or to a plasma.
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post #41 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:41 PM
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The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.

Sounds like dead pixels are common then, I don't notice it from the couch unless I really look for them, but I definitely notice them closer up. Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixels
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post #42 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_bryan View Post

eelton have you tried viewing any DVDs--particularly those with dark scenes?

I've experimented with what I have on hand, although that's not much. As has generally been said about Pioneers, this one has good shadow detail. And, as I've pointed out, the blacks are good. So, the 5061 does a better job combining these two things than I've seen other plasmas do.

--Eric
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post #43 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post

Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixels

To me, dead pixels are completely off--i.e., black--and are more noticeable.

Although I said I'm not going to do anything about mine, I expect there will be a number of posts from people telling you that you shouldn't accept even one (or two) malfunctioning pixels. Regarding the extended warranty, it seems to me that it's Best Buy's problem that they don't have an appropriate exchange, not yours. They should allow the exchange without you having to buy the extended warranty.

--Eric
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post #44 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post

The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.

Sounds like dead pixels are common then, I don't notice it from the couch unless I really look for them, but I definitely notice them closer up. Although looking at your post I may have stuck pixels and not dead pixels. They are both green. I thought that meant they were dead pixels

What about sending BB a certified letter asking for a replacement within the 30 day limit,advising them that you are willing and ready to exchange it now but are willing to wait till they can get the replacement in-- that should entirely be BB's problem.
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post #45 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I can't find anything about it (DRE) in the menus or in the manual.

This may represent a processing difference between the 5060 and 1130 then. Although it may be a dubious difference. It's one of those tricks that changes things dynamically. Pio defines it as a function that "constantly monitors the video signal and boosts white only where needed and not across the entire picture, which delivers better contrast within the colors displayed."

We'll see if it is anything to rave about. It may be one of things better left turned off.

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post #46 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post

The reason they want me to get an extended warranty is because the 30 day exchange time period ends in a week so they wouldn't let me do the exchange after the 30 day period and they don't think they will get the 5061 in by then. Consequently, I would have to get the extended warranty. I'm thinking of waiting a few more days to see if they get the 5061 in. I just hate having to drop more money on the TV for on an extended warranty, but it does sound like the 5061 has some nice improvements and I would get the comfort of the extended warranty.

Why don't you just return it on day 30 and buy the 5060 as soon as it's in. It should be days since some are already picking them up at BB.

.
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post #47 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wojtek View Post

Good idea.

Eelton should bail out Dave ( ), start a new thread, and the threads should be merged with a correct title.

4060 is misleading, particularly to newbies.

Done, just waiting on cheridave .


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post #48 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 08:17 PM
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Title corrected!

Boy what a tuff crowd

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post #49 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 08:23 PM
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Can you delete the one I created?


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post #50 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 08:23 PM
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Note on the Judder Issue........

The AVForum has reported that the "Judder Issue" has not been corrected, at least on their models.

See "Pioneer 506 - My Demo" thread......1st post-

Quote:

Finally gave a 506XDE a thorough going over yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

1. Black Level - a big disappointment. In complete dark, a black screen still emits a quite bright glowing greeny-grey just like the old screens do. So where it counts, there is no subjective improvement. Bright images superimposed on a black background do give the illusion of quite a deep black, however. The big advance is with the lights up - the blacks certainly do look a darker shade of grey than they used to.

2. The judder is still there. Ruined an otherwise perfect HD picture of various sports.

3. Pixellation on movement - much improved! Perfectly clean, but with the sharpness intact. The picture looks a tiny bit less grainy also, and the colours and richness seem to be better, perhaps due to the objectively lower black. These are very subtle improvements though.

All in all, congratulations must be given to Pioneer's marketing department. If I didn't know it, I'd have thought this was the 505, so small are any differences.

Sources were Arcam HDMI DVD, High-def demo, and integrated Freeview.

Reported Judder!

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post #51 of 5600 Old 09-18-2005, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Can you delete the one I created?

Done

I'm tired now and I think I will go to bed now.

Have a great night

Dave

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post #52 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
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1. Black Level - a big disappointment. In complete dark, a black screen still emits a quite bright glowing greeny-grey just like the old screens do.

I'm not sure what he expected; all plasmas (including Panasonics) emit light with a black screen. I'm looking forward to others on this board getting the 5060 to provide more data points, since this is so subjective, and since I don't want to be personally responsible for anyone's purchase decisions. (By the way, a later poster in the above thread stated "Mmm, not sure I agree.... I've got a 506 XDE and comapared to the PV500, the blacks are the same, if not better").

As for the judder, I've been looking for it--at least what I understand it is--and I haven't seen any problem. For those who have seen it, does it persist despite setting changes, such as turning the noise reduction off?

--Eric
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post #53 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 04:56 AM
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I wonder if the judder they are reporting is for PAL sources only? That might explain why eelton has not seen any on his set.
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post #54 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been watching some SD material, and I'm impressed at the cleaner upconversion with the Pioneer than I was used to with the Fujitsu. It's particularly apparent with animation. Watching the Simpsons, for instance, I was used to seeing some pixellation along the edges of solid lines, which I always assumed was just magnified DirecTV artifact. With the Pioneer, though, the lines are much cleaner. This is also apparent with non-animated material, and between that and the much-reduced false contouring (I've seen hints of it, but very minimal), SD looks quite a bit better on the Pioneer.

One other plus--the cinema mode perfectly cuts off the crawl on CNN. I hate the crawl.

--Eric
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post #55 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 06:24 AM
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Best Buy website now has both the 4360 and 5060 for sale. The Pioneer site still doesn't list either model.
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post #56 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 06:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SonyAteMyBaby View Post

I wonder if the judder they are reporting is for PAL sources only? That might explain why eelton has not seen any on his set.

Good point.

People in PAL-countries have been complaining about judder on plasmas forever.

Has to do with frequency handling, I suppose.
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post #57 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I'm not sure what he expected; all plasmas (including Panasonics) emit light with a black screen. I'm looking forward to others on this board getting the 5060 to provide more data points, since this is so subjective, and since I don't want to be personally responsible for anyone's purchase decisions. (By the way, a later poster in the above thread stated "Mmm, not sure I agree.... I've got a 506 XDE and comapared to the PV500, the blacks are the same, if not better").

As for the judder, I've been looking for it--at least what I understand it is--and I haven't seen any problem. For those who have seen it, does it persist despite setting changes, such as turning the noise reduction off?

It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me. Don't know myself if the non-elite has this feature

I think you're doing fine here. Appreciate the effort so far. Don't be concerned with people jumping in saying "but he reports"...). Just stick to what you observe and you'll be fine.


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post #58 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post

It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me.

Yeah, as I've mentioned before in auditioning the Pioneer 5gen Elite plasmas - the judder just killed me...but it was even worse with the 3:3 engaged.
There's a scene in The Hulk that I often use to test judder - it's a shot wherein the camera dollys by a bunch of machinery, which is brutal for eliciting judder. It's not perfectly smooth on my Panasonic, but it's smooth enough not to be distracting. But on every Pioneer I've tested the judder has been significantly more pronounced and distracting (especially when the 3:3 was engaged).

I don't know why this is so, but that's what I keep seeing. I'll be bringing that scene to test out the new 6gen Pioneers.

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post #59 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by eelton View Post

the Pioneer is overall better than the current Panasonics--black level at least as good, great colors (I'm pretty much used to the "popping" colors at this point), better detail in dark areas, and better deinterlacing.

Damn Damn Damn you eelton!! You just had to say that now didn't you.

I was all being pulled so hard by a deeply discounted floor model 5050, and now I am looking at having to fork over the extra Benjamins to get the 5060/5061!

My local BB promised me that they would have on display by this morning the 5061. I hope to go see it after work.

Take Care,

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post #60 of 5600 Old 09-19-2005, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post

It's been my experience that with ADV cinema 3:3 engaged, there is quite a bit of judder induced. Leaving it off has always cleared it up for me. Don't know myself if the non-elite has this feature

The non-Elite does have this feature, and I have the 3:3 (advanced) turned off. It's on standard, which is 3:2 pulldown.

I wish I had a copy of the Hulk to watch the scene R. Harkness is referring to, but I don't (that's probably the only thing that movie is useful for).

--Eric
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