Official Pioneer 4360/5060/Elite Experiences, Set-up, Questions & Pictures Thread!!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jake NYC View Post

I've ordered a black swivel stand from the PRO 1120 and am hoping to use it with the new 5060, which is supposed to ship to me next week.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Any predictions on compatibility?

I'm 99% sure it will work. (But that's just a prediction.) The stands are made to fit multiple models; it wouldn't make sense to intentionally create incompatibilities.

--Eric
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post #182 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by curthendrix View Post

Has anyone experienced any judder problems with HD sports content on the 5th gen Pios? I have a 1130 pre-ordered for primarily HD sports viewing but I don't want any judder in the movements. Thanks.

I doubt you will have a problem with HD Sports, since 95% of all HD Sports content is sent using 720p (progressive), so the plasma internal processor doesn't have to do the conversion from interlaced to prograssive. Plus they use telecast digital cameras and not film based cameras like holywood studios.

You should be A-OK.
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post #183 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LamJNS View Post

... 95% of all HD Sports content is sent using 720p (progressive), so the plasma internal processor doesn't have to do the conversion from interlaced to prograssive. ...

Do you know for sure this is a factor. If so, it would mean upconversion and progressive scan DVD players would avoid the judder issue since deinterlacing is done in the player, not the TV. That would be good news.

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post #184 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by signature View Post

OT: I suppose there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling plasma's (or anything for that matter).

The first school is willing to shrink their margins and make up the difference with quantity (Panasonic, LG, Samsung). I think companies like this are looking to dominate the market. The second school is willing to keep their margins larger, but at the same time they don't need to sell as many (Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Runco). I think companies like this are less concerned about dominating the market, instead they want to provide a product to cater to those that simply must have the very best (best of course being subjective and image and reputation being everything). Makes me wonder where the Hitachis and Pioneers fit in.

I see the same thing in the auto industry. You have your Toyota (Pioneer) and an off-shot of Toyota, which is Lexus (Pioneer Elite). Some buy Toyota and some buy Lexus. Then again, some buy high end Mercedes (Fujitsu). Some would say there is a big difference between a high end Mercedes and a Lexus and would justify the extra expense, whereas others would say that its just a car, it gets me from point A to B and they buy the Panasonic. I suppose if your mentality is such that you think have to have the best of everything and you perceive Fujitsu to be the best. Then the Fujitsu is isn't a bridge too far regardless of price.

I think that is what Fujitsu is counting on. Those high margin sales.


That is an extremely poor analogy, since Lexus/Toyota even though its cheaper then Mercedes, is still #1 in the world for reliability and customer satisfaction while Benz just barely managed to make it to the top 5 in the US market. They have so many problems with electronics that they spend more time in the shop then on the road, at least the first year of each release for the last decade+.

I was really looking forward to the Fujitsu 40-series when they announced it last year. But after personally comparing the 42" and 50" to the pioneer elites and panny onyx in two B+M in NY city earlier this year. It was clear that the so called AVM-II is nothing special. In fact it shouldn't be advertised as the superior feature of the display.

It still doesn't know how to deal with SD signals and the HD signal even though gorgeous, still suffers from false contours and tiny (moss) green pixilation in the blacks! The way Fujitsu techs talked about the AVM-II you would think it is the best of the best. The new P50XTA50US "recently announced" should be about the same thing, since they haven't changed the internal processor, just swapped for the 8th gen Panny glass.
Even still I will definitely run into my local Harvey store to see it side by side with the new elites next month, I want to see if the new glass and maybe some AVM tweaks, made an improvement or if the AVM is still dragging them down.

BTW if you wonder why Fujitsu sold most of its PDP stake to Hitachi, they simply can't compete in the plasma markets. Their displays, even though expensive are not the best performers in the high end market place compared to runco, elite, vidikron etc, and definitely not affordable for the mainstream panny, samsung, dell.
So it makes you wonder what market niche are they making their displays for

But all that is just my opinion, and I never impose my opinion onto others, after all we are all free thinking people, right?
Or are we...
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post #185 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

Do you know for sure this is a factor. If so, it would mean upconversion and progressive scan DVD players would avoid the judder issue since deinterlacing is done in the player, not the TV. That would be good news.


Correct.

If you set the DVD player to interlaced and let the internal "pioneer circuits" do the work, then I would think depending on content you would see the jaggies. But when all the deinterlacing is done through the DVD player all the work is done for the display, the only additional step is to convert 460p to 768p.
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post #186 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 03:15 PM
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Nowhere near 95% of HD sports content is sent using progressive. CBS and NBC are 1080i -- period -- as is HDNet. The UHD sports is also 1080i as are some of the RSNs.

True that ESPN, ABC and FOX are in 720p, but, sorry, it's more like 50 / 50.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #187 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LamJNS View Post

Correct.

If you set the DVD player to interlaced and let the internal "pioneer circuits" do the work, then I would think depending on content you would see the jaggies. But when all the deinterlacing is done through the DVD player all the work is done for the display, the only additional step is to convert 460p to 768p.

Great! Let me take it one step further. I use an upconversion player (Panny S77) and output 1080i through HDMI. When I did comparisons of 720p and 1080i, the latter gave better PQ. But I wasn't looking for motion, only color, shadow detail, sharpness, etc.

Even though 1080i is still interlaced, it's not 480i. Does the panel do deinterlacing in this case, and should I worry about motion artifacts here?

Actually, two steps further, now that I'm thinking about it... What about my cable box. It's a Motorola 6412 and can output at either 720p or 1080i, if I'm not mistaken. What would you advise here with regard to the motion issue.

Thanks for your insights.

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post #188 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 05:02 PM
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Just traded BB my 5051 for the 5061. Since I have been able to enjoy the 5051 for almost a month now I will have direct black level comparisons, color comparisons, etc.

One thing that really really chaps my you-know-what is the stand!! You have to lay the plasma face down on the table to attach the stand!! Arghh!

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??

Anyway...
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post #189 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augmental View Post

Just traded BB my 5051 for the 5061. Since I have been able to enjoy the 5051 for almost a month now I will have direct black level comparisons, color comparisons, etc.

One thing that really really chaps my you-know-what is the stand!! You have to lay the plasma face down on the table to attach the stand!! Arghh!

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??

Anyway...

I'm really interested to hear what you think of the 5061. I bought a 5051 from BB as well when they had their clearance sale and I'm looking at doing the exchange also. Just trying to figure out if it is worth it. Probably the only complaint I have with the 5051 is seeing detail in the dark scenes. Normal brightness scenes look awesome. I'm hoping the 5061 will have better detail with dark scenes.
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post #190 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Nowhere near 95% of HD sports content is sent using progressive. CBS and NBC are 1080i -- period -- as is HDNet. The UHD sports is also 1080i as are some of the RSNs.

True that ESPN, ABC and FOX are in 720p, but, sorry, it's more like 50 / 50.


Let me refrase that then, my cable operator TWC NY provides FOX, NBC and ABC run at 720p (for sports, football baseball etc. Tennis matches were amazing this year). I can set my cable box to do only 1080i, but why do so.
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post #191 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post

Great! Let me take it one step further. I use an upconversion player (Panny S77) and output 1080i through HDMI. When I did comparisons of 720p and 1080i, the latter gave better PQ. But I wasn't looking for motion, only color, shadow detail, sharpness, etc.

Even though 1080i is still interlaced, it's not 480i. Does the panel do deinterlacing in this case, and should I worry about motion artifacts here?

Actually, two steps further, now that I'm thinking about it... What about my cable box. It's a Motorola 6412 and can output at either 720p or 1080i, if I'm not mistaken. What would you advise here with regard to the motion issue.

Thanks for your insights.


1st part - All interlaced content is converted to progressive and then scaled to the native resolution of the plasma. So yes even 1080i will be deinterlaced and then scaled to 768p (native for 50" plasmas)

2nd part - I would run the cable box @ 720p for sports and fast motion content the rest I would run @ 1080i. Over time you will begin to notice which shows that you watch work best depending on the output selected.

Gene
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post #192 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 09:27 PM
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Well I finally broke down and preordered the PDP-5060HD from TVA. After looking at the PDP-5061HD from BB. I was really impressed with the PQ, and I did get good WAF which makes a great combination.

I will now need to learn what DVDs to get to calibrate this baby when it arrives. (Something new for me to learn about now.)

Take Care,

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post #193 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 10:17 PM
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First Thoughts when Comparing 5061 to the previous model 5051 -

First things that popped into my head while watching - WHERE IS MY DRE?? I loved what this did with the contrast on the 5051 and it is not there as an option on the 5061...slightly dissappointed here. Also, watching SD I noticed that it looks a bit different...I can't put my finger on it though...different scaler maybe??

1) It is immediately obvious that the blacks are a truer black on the 5061, no doubt about this at all. I went ahead and tested with the Steamboy, I, Robot and Dark City DVDs via HDMI @ 1080i. Steamboy had more depth to the picture due to the better black level as compared to watching this on the 5051 the other day. I, Robot looked brilliant just as it did on the 5051. I did notice that the night scenes did of course reach a truer black. Dark City was much improved!! I felt as though I was watching DC on a CRT again at times.

2) The color depth/saturation looks exactly the same b/w the 5051 and 5061...which is a major plus. The same "popping" colors are there that everyone refers to.

3) Stand seems flimsy and cheap compared to 5051 stand but it is no biggie

4) There is still a buzz but it is not as noticable as on the 5051 for some reason. I can hear it when I stick my head behind the set. I think the 5051 altered its buzz a lot more when you had contrasting images on-screen. The MR noise is pretty much non-existent, but I felt that the 5051 receiver was pretty noise free.

5) MR has a top black bezel instead of all silver (probably already knew this)

6) Not sure why yet but I have lost my ESPNHD that I was getting for "free" over regular extended basic cable service. With the 5051 I received this channel as 113.3, now the 5061 recognizes that there is a channel there but displays no image. I was able to view Dave Letterman in HD and it looked excellent of course. Skin tones looked good.. Once again the color reproduction is the same as the 5051.
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post #194 of 5600 Old 09-21-2005, 10:20 PM
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Honestly though, if you feel very strongly about having blacker blacks...go with the 5061. Otherwise...I am not sure that there is much of a reason. I feel that the 5061 gives you more of a CRT-like experience in the area of black level.
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post #195 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 04:31 AM
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I don't think they took DRE away from the 60 series. I think they just turned it on by default and deleted a way for you to turn it off.
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post #196 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augmental View Post

Honestly though, if you feel very strongly about having blacker blacks...go with the 5061. Otherwise...I am not sure that there is much of a reason. I feel that the 5061 gives you more of a CRT-like experience in the area of black level.


Thanks for the review. Good to hear that the blacks are a lot deeper. What about the detail within dark scenes? I watched Lost last night with my 5051 and found that I just couldn't see as much detail in the dark scenes as on my CRT. Has that been improved?
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post #197 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:16 AM
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I just ordered a 5060, the salesperson strongly recommended an extended warranty providing an additional 4 years in home service...what are your thoughts?


Steve
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post #198 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:18 AM
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I would say no to an extended warranty. You are better off putting it on a CC that doubles the warranty.
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post #199 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:21 AM
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thanks for the quick response... I charged it on my amex gold card which will give me one additional year warranty...is that enough?
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post #200 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:36 AM
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post #201 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 06:50 AM
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Thans for the imput
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post #202 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:17 AM
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has anyone wall mounted a 6G yet? Same mount as the 5G ?
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post #203 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:17 AM
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D-Nice,

I put the 5060 from TVA on my AMEX, but I was wrestling with the Extended Warranty:

RepairMaster RMT45000 Warranty Plans

(The reason I was thinking of an Extended Warranty was of all the recommendations I have been reading in these forums.)

Any thoughts?

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post #204 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham View Post

has anyone wall mounted a 6G yet? Same mount as the 5G ?

I confirmed that they were the same at CEDIA.
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post #205 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathstalker View Post

D-Nice,

I put the 5060 from TVA on my AMEX, but I was wrestling with the Extended Warranty:

RepairMaster RMT45000 Warranty Plans

(The reason I was thinking of an Extended Warranty was of all the recommendations I have been reading in these forums.)

Any thoughts?

Richard

At the price they are offering, I can see why it is a tough call but I personally would not get it because if the plasma is going to fail, there is a much higher probability that it will do so in the first 1-2 years. Anything after that would probably be a defect in the parts and Pioneer would cover the replacement anyway. The only thing I can see really failing beyond 2 years would be the fan in the MR. You could probably put a new one in yourself. By placing the order on your AMEX, you have a free 2 year warranty.
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post #206 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augmental View Post

Also, they talk about bracing the TV to the table with screws or using wires attached to the wall. Are they trying to say that the stand cannot hold the tv up on its own??

Generally, the stand will hold the display up fine. Attaching to the table or wall is a safeguard in case of child or dog knocking into the display or in case of earthquake.

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post #207 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

At the price they are offering, I can see why it is a tough call but I personally would not get it because if the plasma is going to fail, there is a much higher probability that it will do so in the first 1-2 years. Anything after that would probably be a defect in the parts and Pioneer would cover the replacement anyway. The only thing I can see really failing beyond 2 years would be the fan in the MR. You could probably put a new one in yourself. By placing the order on your AMEX, you have a free 2 year warranty.

Another consideration is the falling price of plasmas. If today's $5000 plasma fails in three years. You could probably replace it with an equivalent for $2000 (or less). By then the displays that cost $5000 will be SED, 1080p, etc.

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post #208 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 09:45 AM
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FWIW - Which isnt much.

According to Pioneer the 1130s "have just began to ship and will be available at retail towards the middle of October".

I questioned why it would take 3 weeks to reach the retail outlets and their response was "they are allocated across the nation and it is hard to tell when every store will have received the models so the store you purchased from could very easily have the product ready before the middle of October".

John

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post #209 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 10:12 AM
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Does anyone know the dimensions of the 4360 with the speakers attached? Do the speakers come with the set or are they an option? Also, is the height dimension given mounted on the stand?
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post #210 of 5600 Old 09-22-2005, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross in Toronto View Post

As for judder testing, all I need to do at the store is tune in on the Rogers HD test channel (501) and there's plenty o' juddery material to check out. They can also toss in any LOTR DVD and I can quickly find several scenes that exhibit judder on my 59Avi / 1110HD set-up.

Do you see the same amount judder whether or not you are upscaling (720p/1080i)? If this is the case then I would avoid the Pios for this very reason.
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