It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 883 Old 11-05-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

HOn top of that, the Kuro displays are among the best exhibitors of this problem. If the plasma tech didn't have this glaring issue, I'd be the happy owner of a PRO-111FD.

i just bought a 428xd and me and my gf are both extremly sensitive to phosphor decay problem. i cannot see that effect in other brands plasma (i dont even consider tham bcoz compared to pioneer, in my opinion, they are light bulbs). when i discovered this problem i went in verious stores to see if the effect was present in television of mine only or it was a generalized problem; i could spot it on every pioneer model (4280xd,lx5090,5080xd and so on) except an lx5080

to mitigate that effect i had to unbalance the white controls pushing up the high-blue to +9 and pushing down the high-green to -7 and high-red to -3 or so and i had to pull up the contrast (that's really funny). the colors havent the fidelty they had before, but not so by much

anyway i would ask if there are controls in the service menĂ¹ to change the decay time of subpixels's phosphors
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post #692 of 883 Old 11-05-2008, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis1x View Post

It is pretty funny why im here. I just got a 50px80u....my first plasma....today. After watching for a while I swore a couple rainbows caught my eye when something solid white was against something dark. I just ignored it thinking no way. Then I ran the anti-IR scrolling white bar and holy crap...RAINBOWS! I ran in here to google plasma rainbow effect because I had never heard of it. Guess Im one of the Chosen Ones.

I see them on my new Panny 42PZ80U. I swore I'd never get a DLP unit since I see rainbows on all of them (probably not on a 3chip unit, but I haven't watched one of those yet) and now I find out Plasma has a similar issue, although not as prominent.

I was watching The Thing a couple of hours ago when I noticed the effect on the whiteness of the snow.

I am going to watch Army of Darkness and pretend I didn't see the rainbows, since I don't want to go with an LCD.
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post #693 of 883 Old 11-11-2008, 03:51 PM
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I was very impressed with the Kuro until I put on a B & W movie. Yellowish or bluish flashes occur during motion scenes or when I move my head or blink my eyes. I understand from this thread that not everyone experiences this but I do.
At least I know I did not buy a defective tv. This is something inherent in the technology. Now I am faced with some options:

Return the TV and keep the LCD(Sony 135) or go with a newer LCD with better blacks (Sony 140). Keep the Kuro and hope the problem gets better as some have stated. Learn to live with this issue.

I called Pioneer and the agent thought this was an issue and he assigned a case number and a tech should call me. I can just see the tech coming here and saying he doesn't see the effect or that is normal.

I would like to know from more people if this problem goes away with break-in. Even though I got 30% off on this TV, it still is very expensive and I didn't expect an issue like this especially when I never saw it with months of research and comparisons in the stores.
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post #694 of 883 Old 11-11-2008, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Holy CRAP!

I can't believe this thread is still going!

I just bought a Samsung A750 and I HATE IT. I'm now considering getting a plasma again! LOL

I am trying to convince myself that I can live with the yellow flashes but I don't know. The Sammy is going back tomorrow. What shall I do? AAAAHHHHHHH
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post #695 of 883 Old 11-11-2008, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fuwa View Post

I was very impressed with the Kuro until I put on a B & W movie. Yellowish or bluish flashes occur during motion scenes or when I move my head or blink my eyes. I understand from this thread that not everyone experiences this but I do.
At least I know I did not buy a defective tv. This is something inherent in the technology. Now I am faced with some options:

Return the TV and keep the LCD(Sony 135) or go with a newer LCD with better blacks (Sony 140). Keep the Kuro and hope the problem gets better as some have stated. Learn to live with this issue.

I called Pioneer and the agent thought this was an issue and he assigned a case number and a tech should call me. I can just see the tech coming here and saying he doesn't see the effect or that is normal.

I would like to know from more people if this problem goes away with break-in. Even though I got 30% off on this TV, it still is very expensive and I didn't expect an issue like this especially when I never saw it with months of research and comparisons in the stores.

I don't think the phosphor decay rate changes significantly with age. Those who see it probably subconsciously learn to tune it out.

I have a three year old Panasonic plasma and could always see the yellow/green trails under the right conditions (I.E.scrolling credits on a black & white move). Fortunately I notice it so seldom that it doesn't bother me. However when I do see it, it's just as noticeable as when the set was new.
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post #696 of 883 Old 11-11-2008, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicheyPoor View Post

I don't think the phosphor decay rate changes significantly with age. Those who see it probably subconsciously learn to tune it out.

I have a three year old Panasonic plasma and could always see the yellow/green trails under the right conditions (I.E.scrolling credits on a black & white move). Fortunately I notice it so seldom that it doesn't bother me. However when I do see it, it's just as noticeable as when the set was new.

Very true IMO. I was never able to see this effect until I learned more about it and started to train myself to see it. Now I'm exceptionally good at seeing it. But like you say, just as I was able to tune it in so to speak, I find I am able to tune it out as well. It is amazing how significant personal perception can be.

As for technique, I found that if I concentrate on stabalizing and slowing my eye movements the flashes become much less significant and fewer in number. After that it was easy to start to forget them and eventually stop noticing them.

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post #697 of 883 Old 11-12-2008, 06:37 AM
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I also don't notice it as much simply because I stopped looking for it and I've gotten used to it as others have said. Unfortunately, neither technology is perfect and you have to choose which issues you can live with. To me, bad black levels and viewing angle issues aggravate me more than occasional flashes that I can get used to, especially when I'm not jumping my eyes across the screen.
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post #698 of 883 Old 11-12-2008, 10:55 AM
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I will keep the plasma as the benefits outweigh the limitations. Every technology has its limitations and benefits. I prefer the plasma for movie viewing in a dark environment.
The Best Buy sales person suggested a calibration. I will probably do this after the intial break-in. In the meantime I noticed that as others here have stated, limiting your eye/head movements decreases this defect. Not wearing your glasses helps also.
As a side note I remember a similar effect during a TV commercial in 1966 or 1967. It was a soft drink commercial viewed on my small black and white tv. The commercial said: "You will enjoy this drink so much that you will think you can see color on your black and white tv". Sure enough there was an inch of color pulses on the tv screen. Anyone else here old enough to remember that commercial? I saw it only once and I think it was during Flipper.
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post #699 of 883 Old 11-12-2008, 06:21 PM
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I went back to Best Buy today with the black and white movie. We put it on all the tvs. The Pioneers and Panasonics (111 and 851) that had been on display for months showed no visible flashing to either of us. The Best Buy Sales representative noticed flashing on a Samsung plasma that had been in use for just a few weeks and pointed it out to me. He was not aware of this isuue until I pointed it out to him last night. We are now both of the opinion that this problem probably decreases with the age and use of the tv. Some of the people on this thread have stated different experiences. Time will tell.
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post #700 of 883 Old 11-12-2008, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwa View Post

I will keep the plasma as the benefits outweigh the limitations. Every technology has its limitations and benefits. I prefer the plasma for movie viewing in a dark environment.
The Best Buy sales person suggested a calibration. I will probably do this after the intial break-in. In the meantime I noticed that as others here have stated, limiting your eye/head movements decreases this defect. Not wearing your glasses helps also.
As a side note I remember a similar effect during a TV commercial in 1966 or 1967. It was a soft drink commercial viewed on my small black and white tv. The commercial said: "You will enjoy this drink so much that you will think you can see color on your black and white tv". Sure enough there was an inch of color pulses on the tv screen. Anyone else here old enough to remember that commercial? I saw it only once and I think it was during Flipper.

I see that you are in California. Please don't get a calibration done by Best Buy. You are in an area that has native calibrators that other's pay expensive travel fees to work with.
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post #701 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 06:58 PM
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Fascinating discussion...

Here is my story. Earlier this year I purchased a Panasonic TH-42PZ77U. I ended up returning it because the TV had 2 dark bands that were visible on uniform backgrounds (soccer, hockey). I could also see very strong green phosphor trail effect when playing COD4 and Burnout on my PS3. Unfortunately, it seems that I am one of those individuals that can see these trails. I also used to have a Samsung DLP, and I could clearly see rainbows on that TV. I am sure with time I could get used to this, but I returned the set because of aforementioned dark bands that were visible permanently. Keep in mind that I used this set for only 4-5 days, so the phosphors did not have time to age properly.

I ended up purchasing a Toshiba 42RV530U, since I did not feel like lugging that 42kg monstrosity pz77u back and forth (I know that is not a great reason). I am relatively satisfied with rv530. However, I still miss the way plasma handles motion. LCD technology is still way behind when it comes to motion. Plasma also looks much more organic and natural, without giving everything that artificial and arguably fake look that LCD's tend to have.

The point is that I am thinking about giving away my RV530 to my parents and going out and trying my luck with plasma technology again. Every time I go to a store which has plasmas on display, I get blown away by how superior they look to their LCD counterparts, once you get past the insane brightness that LCD's produce in a store environment.

This is where it gets interesting - while comparing various plasmas today in a store, I am pretty sure that the 720p sets seemed to have significantly lesser amount of phospor lag than their 1080p counterparts. Keep in mind, the plasma that I returned earlier this year was a 1080p set. Could it be that 720p plasma panels are better optimized since they have been around longer? I know that it is very difficult to be objective under horrible lighting conditions that most stores have, but that's what it looked like to me.

Anyway, I am planning to pick up a Panasonic 720p 42-inch plasma tomorrow (the Costco model), and give it another try. I really don't care about 1080p, since blu-ray watching makes up about 15% of my TV-watching experience. Most of my content is 720p or 1080i. Plus, the 720p sets use way less energy and run much cooler. I will post back the results for any of my fellow "I can see rainbow-like effect" people

Excited to be back in the plasma camp...
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post #702 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 09:58 PM
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I see rainbows as well on plasma's. I have a new Panasonic TH-50PZ85U. I see them on all DLP's as well. The plasma rainbow for me consists of green/yellow rainbows. DLP's have all the colors. I'm fine with it on my plasma as I have to FORCE myself to see them. THey don't just randomly happen.

This is my second plasma and I love it. Coming from 2 DLP's (sammy HLN & HLT), 1 plasma (sammy), and 2 LCD's (sammy 6 series), this Panasonic PQ is head and shoulders above my past displays.
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post #703 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Well after years of not being able to see this color seperation I'm now exceedingly efficient at seeing it. Now that I'm able to see it and not just theorize it's cause, I can agree that it definitley looks like there are two seperate artifacts.

1 - retinal persistence (plainbows)

2 - phospor decay (green/yellow flashing)


I also would like to suggest that inherent problem threads like this one might be better served as a private thread. I say this because if this thread never existed, I would have never ever noticed the color seperation.

Ignorance is bliss.........


Yea, Most of us cannot see these rainbows or trails.
And we should not go trying to see them PERIOD.

If you are one of the peole who is sensitive to it and see it clearly, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.
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post #704 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

If you are one of the peole who is sensitive to it and see it clearly, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

Now why would I want to go and do such a thing ? My 141FD is just beautiful IMO. And the color seperation is easily controlled with visual training in my case. I trained myself to see it and now I'm getting good at ignoring it as well.

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post #705 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Now why would I want to go and do such a thing ? My 141FD is just beautiful IMO. And the color seperation is easily controlled with visual training in my case. I trained myself to see it and now I'm getting good at ignoring it as well.

Let me re-phrase:

"If you are one of the people who is sensitive to it, see it clearly, and are really bothered by it, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

I remember reading about some guy who taped camera lenses over his eyes to help him see it. IMO that is just insanity.lol
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post #706 of 883 Old 11-14-2008, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Let me re-phrase:

"If you are one of the people who is sensitive to it, see it clearly, and are really bothered by it, I would say just stay away from plasma. At least for now.

I remember reading about some guy who taped camera lenses over his eyes to help him see it. IMO that is just insanity.lol

LOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

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post #707 of 883 Old 11-15-2008, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

LOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

So are you able to see it on CRT's?
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post #708 of 883 Old 11-15-2008, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

LOL, yikes. I thought I had OCD issues I would say that I can now see the issue on the severe end of the scale (for years I could never see it, even when looking for it) and only get bothered by it if I start to focus and look for it. If I slow my eye movements and stop anticipating and looking for it I usually completely stop noticing it. It is really a non-issue for me but it is fun to understand it since I am a scientist.

Heck, even I've been able to train myself to either not see it, or be able to ignore it 95% of the time. (I think that I saw it once during my Gears 2 playthrough) so it is entirely possible to retrain your brain on how it sees the world..... I wonder what else I could retrain it to do?

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post #709 of 883 Old 11-15-2008, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post

Fascinating discussion...

Here is my story. Earlier this year I purchased a Panasonic TH-42PZ77U. I ended up returning it because the TV had 2 dark bands that were visible on uniform backgrounds (soccer, hockey). I could also see very strong green phosphor trail effect when playing COD4 and Burnout on my PS3. Unfortunately, it seems that I am one of those individuals that can see these trails. I also used to have a Samsung DLP, and I could clearly see rainbows on that TV. I am sure with time I could get used to this, but I returned the set because of aforementioned dark bands that were visible permanently. Keep in mind that I used this set for only 4-5 days, so the phosphors did not have time to age properly.

I ended up purchasing a Toshiba 42RV530U, since I did not feel like lugging that 42kg monstrosity pz77u back and forth (I know that is not a great reason). I am relatively satisfied with rv530. However, I still miss the way plasma handles motion. LCD technology is still way behind when it comes to motion. Plasma also looks much more organic and natural, without giving everything that artificial and arguably fake look that LCD's tend to have.

The point is that I am thinking about giving away my RV530 to my parents and going out and trying my luck with plasma technology again. Every time I go to a store which has plasmas on display, I get blown away by how superior they look to their LCD counterparts, once you get past the insane brightness that LCD's produce in a store environment.

This is where it gets interesting - while comparing various plasmas today in a store, I am pretty sure that the 720p sets seemed to have significantly lesser amount of phospor lag than their 1080p counterparts. Keep in mind, the plasma that I returned earlier this year was a 1080p set. Could it be that 720p plasma panels are better optimized since they have been around longer? I know that it is very difficult to be objective under horrible lighting conditions that most stores have, but that's what it looked like to me.

Anyway, I am planning to pick up a Panasonic 720p 42-inch plasma tomorrow (the Costco model), and give it another try. I really don't care about 1080p, since blu-ray watching makes up about 15% of my TV-watching experience. Most of my content is 720p or 1080i. Plus, the 720p sets use way less energy and run much cooler. I will post back the results for any of my fellow "I can see rainbow-like effect" people

Excited to be back in the plasma camp...

Sorry to say but this is not the case. I started this set 3 years ago because I bought a 720p Panasonic plasma. The early sets were just as bad.
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post #710 of 883 Old 11-15-2008, 08:13 PM
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Here is my update...I picked up a TH-C42HD18, which is basically a Costco version of PX-80, a basic Panasonic 720p plasma. So far, I am extremely pleased with the set...it definitely has less rainbow-like phosphor trails than the plasma I tried last year (PZ77U). Could be the fact that the PZ77U was defective.

I am pretty sure that I will be able to live with slight phosphor trails which are only visible under certain conditions. To my eyes, the overall picture quality of plasma absolutely blows away current generation of LCD's, and I am willing to accept certain compromises.

When it comes to phosphor trails, I have found that there are several factors that make it easier to notice them:

- 60fps source (Call of Duty 4, Burnout Paradise); I cannot really notice any trails with regular 30fps and 24fps footage
- watching in absolute darkness; it is much more difficult to notice them if there is any ambient light in the room

The funny thing is that while I was trying to test my new plasma for these things, I was watching a 007 movie, and I kept getting "distracted" by getting into the movie and forgetting I was testing the screen...I guess that is how I would sum up the difference between the effect LCDs and Plasmas have on me - while LCDs draw my attention to the artificiality of the way the image is reproduced and literaly to the surface of the screen, Plasmas have that magic ability to draw me in and act as a window into the world of the movie.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #711 of 883 Old 11-15-2008, 08:16 PM
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I see dead people....

rofl..

I am no longer able to watch a movie. I am monitoring a video display with regards to chroma, brightness, contrast and correct pulldown.
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post #712 of 883 Old 11-25-2008, 03:00 PM
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This is the DEFINITIVE PLASMA VIDEO to use when buying a new plasma.
After downloading the zip file, burn both folders onto a DVD and then finilize if needed and they should be playable on most dvd and bluray players.
I wish I had this dvd when I was buying a Plasma.
There are 2 commercials on the video, the first one is not important, but the 2nd on is the most important 30 seconds I've ever watched while owning a Plasma.
PLEASE don't respond to this thread unless you have watched the video on a Plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP
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post #713 of 883 Old 11-25-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by docrings View Post

Wow... you are about the one person in a million who sees this... (too bad for you, really).

Guess you'll have to stick to "live" performances, sporting events and theater instead of video recordings on TV... for shame, really....


You're ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I did an experiment and showed a video to 10 people on a Panasonic Plasma, every single one of them saw the GPTs. I think almost everyone sees them, most people just don't notice them as they're camaflauged.
Burn this to DVD and play this on a plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP
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post #714 of 883 Old 11-25-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Yoda1 View Post

I just bought a Samsung A750 and I HATE IT. I'm now considering getting a plasma again! LOL

So you took the XBR6 back already?
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post #715 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack White View Post

This is the DEFINITIVE PLASMA VIDEO to use when buying a new plasma.
After downloading the zip file, burn both folders onto a DVD and then finilize if needed and they should be playable on most dvd and bluray players.
I wish I had this dvd when I was buying a Plasma.
There are 2 commercials on the video, the first one is not important, but the 2nd on is the most important 30 seconds I've ever watched while owning a Plasma.
PLEASE don't respond to this thread unless you have watched the video on a Plasma.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JCF4OJHP

Just wondering,

you referr to your goofy video as the

"DEFINITIVE VIDEO" for plasma.

You are the only one who thinks it is definitive. Because you and a few others are the only ones who can detect this "Problem" during regular content.

But I guess if someone is going to watch Sin city and this "definitive" video over and over and over and over again, then it is the definitive video for you.

The other 99% of us will watch our Plasmas with no phosphor issues whatsoever.

So have fun being miserable.
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post #716 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 11:44 AM
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I'm gonna have to agree with chad on this one, just give it up, there are many people who just simply can't see these trails. Who knows, if you stop constantly talking about it, and start trying to ignore it on normal content, you might just suddenly realize one day that you can't see them anymore. (hey, it worked for me.)

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post #717 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 01:04 PM
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I put this on another thread about this that got locked, didn't even know this one existed, heh.

I just got a TH-46PZ80U and set it up. Since I read up as much as I could on the Panasonics, I knew that the phosphor stuff bothered some people.

So I spent hours staring at the screen to see if I could see phosphor trails. I couldn't without giving myself a migraine, squinting at high-motion, high-contrast scenes. When I rewound and watched those scenes without staring intently, I couldn't see them.

Just wanted to throw that out there for people who are researching their first plasma so they don't think that the world is composed of Jack Whites.
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post #718 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 01:13 PM
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So I spent hours staring at the screen to see if I could see phosphor trails. I couldn't without giving myself a migraine, squinting at high-motion, high-contrast scenes. When I rewound and watched those scenes without staring intently, I couldn't see them.

I don't understand why people do this? Why try to see a problem? You either see it or you don't (or you tell your annoying buddy, who harps on it all the time, you do just to get him to leave you alone).

I'm not criticizing you Meatless, I just don't understand what the fascination with finding problems in the TVs are.
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post #719 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 01:18 PM
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I don't understand why people do this? Why try to see a problem? You either see it or you don't (or you tell your annoying buddy, who harps on it all the time, you do just to get him to leave you alone).

I'm not criticizing you Meatless, I just don't understand what the fascination with finding problems in the TVs are.

Hell man, I wish I could tell you. I guess since it's my first high def TV, I was worried about investing in something I wouldn't enjoy. Why that made me try to not enjoy it, I don't know.

But it's all good; I know that I can't really see them even if I try really hard. I don't even think about it any more.
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post #720 of 883 Old 12-06-2008, 01:23 PM
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Hell man, I wish I could tell you. I guess since it's my first high def TV, I was worried about investing in something I wouldn't enjoy.

That I can understand. I see your point. I think my opinion on this comes more from those who not only try to see but who 'train' themselves to see it.
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