It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:16 AM
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Yeah, it's all about which technology's annoyances you're more willing to live with. When I went HD a few years back, I started with an LCD. With the terrible viewing angles and terrible black levels, I exchanged it for a Panasonic plasma. I already knew about the trails and possible buzzing before I bought it, and it took a little while to accept these issues. Compared to LCD though, it was worth it to put up with the problems. Now I don't notice the trails as much (you really do notice them a lot more if you're thinking about it or looking for it), and I only hear the buzzing if I watch TV late at night with the volume low. As far as the buzzing though, CRTs would annoy my ears with their high pitched noise, so I was living with annoyances anyway.
I also notice the flickering that johnddx mentioned, but only on white parts of the screen when I'm really close (I was always really sensitive to refresh rates on CRT monitors). From as far back as I watch the set though, I don't notice it anymore. Watching further back does also help with the green trails. Because of this, I always say LCDs are great for computer monitors, and plasmas are great for TVs and not the other way around since IMO, LCDs are good close up and plasmas aren't.
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Old 01-18-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxheaven View Post

Well, after the buzzing, now this!
It seems I'm sensitive to pretty much every flaws of plasma sets.

It's a real PITA, I'm so amazed at the PQ, but I can hear the set buzz like crazy AND rainbow effects. I've had the set for 3 weeks now and I don't know what to do. Well, clearly there's nothing I CAN do... have to live with it. Haven't even watched a full lenght movie in the dark yet. Hope it doesn't get worse.

I saw rainbows when I first got my Pioneer plasma and they went away in few weeks or I got used to them. So there is hope.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:15 PM
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Thanks for cheering me up

Obviously I hope it'll get better.
My eyes may get "used" to watching a plasma panel. It's really only happened a few times, during high contrast scenes.

My ears, well, yeah I could hear the buzz from my CRT screen anyway so, well I didn't fix this problem, but it's not a new problem either in my case...
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:20 PM
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it's weird because I'm the only one of my friends who has a plasma and when they come over occasionally no one ever complains of seeing any rainbows. I don't either.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:32 PM
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Count me in as another member of the people who see rainbows while watching a plasma TV club. A friend of mine got a Panasonic plasma set and within seconds of watching it, my eyes kept seeing flashes of rainbows. It was especially bad when watching credits on a movie.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:58 AM
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I'm another one who sees it (mostly yellowish flashes) around bright whites. Also and whitish lettering or wording on a darker color background. I was catching them off the white lines on the stage of the Barrett Jackson car auction. Seeing on DVD's, Blue-Rays, HD and SD content. My wife, family and friends see nothing so I know it has to do with my personal visual anatomy. I love the TV but it's starting to drive me nuts. Hopefully, like an earlier poster, it will go away (get used to it) in a few weeks. Oh yeah, this is a Panny GT25 with an August 2010 manufacture date. I won't even go into how bad DLP drives me crazy.

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Old 01-23-2011, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnddx View Post

I've purchased a TC-P65VT25, it was delivered two days ago. Almost immediately on Tivo HD sports recordings I started getting the sensation of flickering on the screen, in bright white areas (scores, uniforms, lines on the field, etc). Eventually I started to notice rainbow-like artifacts, mostly as I moved my eyes to different parts of the screen. The flickering sensation is constant, even if I hold my eyes in place, much like looking at a 60Hz CRT.

This is my first plasma. I had never heard of this issue in plasmas before, so I had to search for it. I didn't notice it in the store. It must be a rare observation, because this thread was pretty hard to find. But it is a real concern as it seems to be causing me eye-strain, the same reason I've had to avoid DLP like a plague.

I hope I don't have to return the set.

I have to return the set. I've applied D-Nice's settings, tried every video mode, every video source, every contrast level, dark rooms, dim rooms, bright rooms, and in all situations the fact remains: with certain content, the flicker and rainbow effects are painfully unbearable to my sense of vision. If it wasn't irritating, I might have given it a try to see if I could get used to it as others reportedly have, but I can't fathom the discomfort in the mean time.

I am not terribly unique; I can find quintessential examples of these problems, pause the content, and when I point them out to my wife, she agrees and can see exactly the same things. The only difference is that for me it's painful, whereas she doesn't mind it... and she may not even have noticed the issues if I hadn't pointed them out. Doesn't matter, if I can't watch it, she's not allowed to, either.

I went back to the store and confirmed that it's not a defective set: all VT25s are like this.

These are the kinds of scenes that give me problems:
  • White areas on the XBox 360 dashboard
  • White-ish areas in Kinect Adventures menus
  • Title screens on Blu-Ray disc menus, wherein there is white text on dark or colored backgrounds
  • White-Text on Black-Background Movie Credits
  • Scenes in which two people in dark coats walk towad the camera on a brightly day-lit sidewalk (the sidewalk will seperate into red/green/yellow, as the eyes move between the people)

I am perhaps as sensitive as they come. I have felt like throwing CRTs running at anything less than 72hz through a window, and even 72 is "just acceptable". I occasionally have to relocate our party at a restaurant, when an overhead light that flickers--in a way that apparently only I can see--makes me queazy while I read the menu. I'd rather work in the dark than contend with dubious fluorescent lighting at the office.

Still, I wish I had known these artifacts were even a possibility in plasma technology. I wouldn't have sold off my old tv already (a fool move in any case, perhaps). The more I read about how plasma works--especially from xrox's technical posts and references--it seems similar enough to CRT (in terms of the use of short-duty-cycle sub-pixel phosphors) that the possibility seems obvious in retrospect. At least for the flicker; I've never actually seen temporal color seperation on CRTs.

- John
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnddx View Post

I went back to the store and confirmed that it's not a defective set: all VT25s are like this.

Preliminary Note: All the sets discussed here produce images of gorgeous, misty-eyed color and beauty. This is what makes plasma so attractive. The opposing issue (for people like me) is the degree to which they present temporal artifacts that some people may be sensitive to, manifesting in eyestrain, headaches and/or nausea.

As I wrote above, I returned to the showroom to make sure that I could see the flickering and rainbow effects on the sets on display, and indeed I could.

I was able to view the VT25 in a darkened private toom, as well as on a wall of flat panels. The flicker and rainbow effects were apparent in both situations, but they were much more so in the private room, where they were apparent to the same degree I experience them at home. This helps explain how I overlooked the problem prior to buying the set, when I wasn't able to view it in a private room. It also indicates that the set presents this problem just as intensely after 1500 hours of use on a showroom floor as it does after only 100 hours at home: in other words, the problem won't reduce over time. Other people who are reporting that the symptoms go down over time are probably just able to get used to it.

Finally, I was able to compare the presentation of artifacts on the VT25 with two other sets: a Samsung PN63C8000, and a 65" Runco (whose model number I didn't care to write down on account of pricing outside of my range).

Samsung PN63C8000
  • Side-by-side with the Panasonic VT25, it was evident that the Panny was much worse in presenting symptoms of color seperation and flickering than the Samsung.
  • When I was able to look at my own content, which I know to cause problems on the VT25, the effects were reduced enough that it didn't cause me obvious eye-strain. The rainbows and flickering were still noticable, but barely so.
  • Unfortunately I wasn't able to view the Samsung in a private room, but based on how it compares with the Panny, it's conceivable that I could tolerate the artifacts on the Samsung long enough to get used to the set, as other people have reportedly done with theirs. However, in a private room it is likely the effects would be more apparent, so I'd give it a 50/50.

Runco 65" Plasma
I observed this one in a darkened private room, which should yield the worst manifestation of temporal artifacts. Yet, this set performed even better in these conditions than the Samsung. The whites were rock-solid, and I could perceive no flickering. I could still see mild (mild) color seperation, but it was not a bother at all. I'm convinced that I could enjoy this set for long periods of time, if only I could afford it.

Conclusion
As sensitive as I am to temporal artifacts like flickering and RBE (or plainbows, or color seperation, whatever you want to call them), I can say that there are differences between plasma displays. It is not sufficient to say that "these effects are germane to the plasma technology", because different manufacturers implement plasma differently, and can do so in way that presents temporal artifacts in different ways. This differences can be enough to make the artifacts tolerable, intolerable or even invisible to the same viewer. So, if you're concerned about these problems, make sure you look at all of your plasma options, don't dismiss them completely based on one experience.

-John
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:16 PM
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I notice this with my friends 46" C2 or U2 Panasonic Plasma. I can't recall which model he has, but I think he has the lowest model. Panasonic plasma and I find it distracting and it gives me a mild headache. It's not as bad as what I've had with DLP projectors. I think I also saw this effect with my other friends Panasonic 50" PX80. I see yellow and blue mainly. I also recall seeing a similar effect with rear projection CRT TV's, but it was mainly red and green. I guess if I ever get a plasma, I'll have to get something that has this minimized. I suppose I'll search this thread, as I was hoping that some sort of a faster re-fresh rate would reduce the effect.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:49 PM
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This is very annoying!!! i have a vt25 and i couldnt figure out what i thought was weird about it until i saw this!

i also see the rainbow effect and dont know what to do. my wife doesn't see it. i am also prone to seeing those damn led tail lights do that blinking thing. i feel like i have to be really careful to avoid darting my eyes across the screen.

it isn't horrible but i keep forcing myself to look for it right now.

i just dropped down the contrast a bit, lets see if that helps. I really don't want to watch movies with all the lights on.

i am going to call the viera conceirge and see if they can do anything to fix this.

i thought plasmas were supposed to have the best refresh rates so i don't understand this.

i predominately see the problem on 1080i content as well. i am thinking of forcing everything to upconvert to 1080p and see if it is any better. i wish we had some fake frame doubler or something, dont know if that could help....

ughhh... any advice would be well appreciated. i am past the return period of my vt25 when i figured this out so that is no longer an option. i have +100 hours on my tv too after running calibration slides
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:37 PM
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So are there no different plasma technology out there that mitigate this by way of a different refresh rate? I think it has to do with the separate R G B pixels. I don't see this with LCD projectors.
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:51 AM
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Wow - so I'm not crazy. For the longest time I have seen the rainbows on my in-laws' Vizio plasma from a few years back.

I figured for myself that it was just their TV - as I don't see this problem on either of my Samsung plasma's. Maybe I could if I tried by shaking my eyes like crazy (great way to watch TV!) but in normal viewing I do not see it on my sets. In what I would call normal viewing on their Vizio, I see it for sure.

That being said, it's nowhere near as bad as the rainbows I see on a DLP. Part of that might have to do with the larger size of the image causing my eyes to move more.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:05 AM
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This has been explained in this thread, though I'm not sure if anyone has posted this link which is a great explanation of what's happening:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/plasm...2007040133.htm

Also, this post (in this thread) shows a document from Panasonic saying they are reducing the lag of green and red to reduce the issue, though I'm not sure if this is in production and if so, if anyone has noticed an improvement.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17898423
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtt777 View Post

i am also prone to seeing those damn led tail lights do that blinking thing.

You are not alone. The new LED tail-lights and brake-lights drive me crazy - I see double images of them when I move my eyes while driving...

I also see phosphor trails in plasmas and rainbows galore (and I mean galore) in single-chip DLP projectors.

I guess it is some kind of sensitivity which most people don't have. I'd be interested to find out why certain individuals are more sensitive to those things than others.
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

So are there no different plasma technology out there that mitigate this by way of a different refresh rate? I think it has to do with the separate R G B pixels. I don't see this with LCD projectors.

Phoshpor rise time and decay times are the source of the issue.

Blue phosphor rise and decay times are in the microsecond to nanosecond range

Greenand Red phosphor rise and decay times are in the millisecond range.


Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:49 AM
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I have issues with plasma as well but my problem would be more related to flickering, espicially on bright scenes and colors on plasma TV.

Uf you guys want an idea of what I see, try switching to 48hz when watching a bluray, you see flicking. I see this, on bright scenes, but at a faster pace. On dark scenes, I don't see this.

it ended up driving me crazy and the only reason I returned my G25.
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:29 PM
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According to this article
http://www.hdguru3d.com/index.php?op...news&Itemid=59
it seems Panasonic did make some improvements with the phosphor lag. Does anyone have a 2010 or later set and notice an improvement?
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:02 PM
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For the first month or so I saw the phosphor trailing on my vt25. It appeared as a yellow,slight green color which was more visible when viewing bright moving areas on dark background. Seeing it out of the corner of my eye or when scanning over the screen area quickly was usually how I noticed it.

However... I don't see it anymore! I'm not positive as to the reasoning for this. I could have just gotten used to it and I subconsciously ignore the effect. Or maybe the phosphors break in somewhat; the lag time goes down. ? I did have the set calibrated after a couple months... maybe that is significant. The trailing effect is somewhat annoying, so I'm glad I don't have it anymore.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majikthise View Post

For the first month or so I saw the phosphor trailing on my vt25. It appeared as a yellow,slight green color which was more visible when viewing bright moving areas on dark background. Seeing it out of the corner of my eye or when scanning over the screen area quickly was usually how I noticed it.

However... I don't see it anymore! I'm not positive as to the reasoning for this. I could have just gotten used to it and I subconsciously ignore the effect. Or maybe the phosphors break in somewhat; the lag time goes down. ? I did have the set calibrated after a couple months... maybe that is significant. The trailing effect is somewhat annoying, so I'm glad I don't have it anymore.

That give me some hope!! Maybe i will try to age mine more with some slides...
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:33 PM
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When I first bought my 5080HD I could easily and frequently notice this rainbow effect just by barely moving my head while looking at the screen, but fast forward 3.2 years and I rarely ever notice it anymore, I believe this effect reduces over time as the plasma ages.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

When I first bought my 5080HD I could easily and frequently notice this rainbow effect just by barely moving my head while looking at the screen, but fast forward 3.2 years and I rarely ever notice it anymore, I believe this effect reduces over time as the plasma ages.

It's not horrible for me and doesn't seem to cause serious headaches, like I've had with dlp rainbows....but, I think I did get a bit of a headache the last time. I wonder though if while the plasma ages and changes it's operating characteristics, the effect changes, and/or perhaps you can 'get used to it' over time and it becomes less of an issue. My friend doesn't notice it.
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:21 PM
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I see an artifact/effect similar to the Plasma phosphor trailing or the DLP rainbows on a Sony CRT rear projection set. It is visible when there's white lettering against a dark background and I move my eyes fast across the screen. The white letters produce yellow ghosts!

With LCD's, if the panel has a slow response time, I can see the trails caused by slow pixel transition times (more pronounced in high contrast scenes and when gray colors are involved).

I cannot spot any of these issues on a tube CRT.

Man, I really hope that OLED or the next best tech get rid of these issues. I want good viewing experience finally.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:51 PM
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I just stumbled across the thread in my quest to find out more about the rainbow effect of a plasma.

I've always been sensitive to noises and visual irrgularities. Im one of the few people who i know who can a CRT monitor flicker at 60hz, rainbow streaks on a DLP projector, and now unfortunatly rainbow streaks on my new samsung c6400 plasma.

I have a htpc hookedup to the HDMI 1 port which is the one recommended by the manual to use if you are connecting it to a DVI out from a computer for example. I really noticed the rainbow effect. However when i load up my ps3 (on HDMI 4) i barely notice it at all. So i tried using the PC input instead for the htpc with a regular VGA cable instead and that has helped reduce how much of the rainbow effect i had.

i tried experimenting with "game mode" but it looks like i can only enable that for the input that the ps3 is connected to, not for all sources?

it didnt make things better or worse for the rainbow problem.
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:09 AM
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I feel like I just got into a secret club. I just got my first plasma, a Samsung PN59D8000 and noticed this while watching some blu-ray content with the lights off. I can only see it in dark scenes with some high contrast element and only if I move look from side to side. I haven't noticed it during normal TV viewing with brighter scenes.

Otherwise the set it beautiful. I suspect after a while I'll get used to it or learn to ignore it. My wife cannot see it, so it's just me (and you guys ).

ps. For me, the effect is predominantly a red/yellow trail.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:27 AM
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I bought my first plasma (Panasonic VT30) last week and started noticing this issue after a few days - at first I could'nt place my finger on what the issue was but then I noticed the yellow and blue streaks after bright white objects (lines, texts, etc) when moving my eyes. Very strange phenomenon and right now it 's hard not see anything else

I did a google search and found this thread... never heard about this problem before (so I wasn't looking for it) and saddend by it because the image quality is otherwise fantastic on the VT30, but straining on my eyes.

Have you guys gotten used to it or is there a way to minimize or eliminate it (a setting on the TV, viewing distance, lighting)?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:04 AM
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I have a VT25, and noticed it when I first got it. I rarely see it and when I do it never bothers me...unlike RBE on projectors. I do use bias lighting behind my set, not sure if that helps the overall condition or not.
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:52 AM
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Is this like the 'coloured static' I see whenever white or bright colours are moving on my VT30?

I try to ignore it now, but it definitely would have been a minus for plasma (beside many plusses) when I was deciding what to buy.
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:59 AM
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I bought last year a Panasonic G25 and after a week, I returned it. The flickering in bright colors/scene was very distracting. I didn't really notice it in the store as it was a very bright environement but at home, on my mancave where it's usually pretty dark, it was very noticeable, espicially when I was playing the slides to age the screen uniformely.

If the scenes was pretty dark, I woudn't really notice it, but tv adds with bright color background with texte would show it immediately. Ultimately, I wasn't sure I could get used to it so I returned the TV. Too bad because as others have said, I really love the PQ and the view angle.

Even today, I am yet to pick a new TV and keep looking at the plasma wondering if I could live through this. Getting a large TV with this level of PQ on the LED/LCD side is so much more expensive.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:44 PM
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I have 3 older plasmas in the house (Panny V10, Samsung B series) and have never noticed this rainbow issue which I heard was mostly on DLP tv's.

I recently bought a new Samsung D7000 series and immediately noticed the rainbows. I thought it was me being tired, I didn't relize Plasmas could do this. They must have done something to the technology to introduce this in search of better black levels since I do not notice this on my other 3 plasma's.

I'm really concerned about upgrading now.

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Old 07-25-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhl2k View Post

This has been explained in this thread, though I'm not sure if anyone has posted this link which is a great explanation of what's happening:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/plasm...2007040133.htm

Also, this post (in this thread) shows a document from Panasonic saying they are reducing the lag of green and red to reduce the issue, though I'm not sure if this is in production and if so, if anyone has noticed an improvement.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17898423

Just read this article and my problem could be the high Contrast setting that the D7000 seems to be require.

Will turn down and see if it stops.

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