It's official. I see a rainbow-like effect on every plasma. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I now have to add plasma to the list of new technologies that I see rainbows on. What a shame, really, 'cause plasma is - in my opinion - the best advanced technology on the market.

The thing that's most interesting to me is, not only do I see a rainbow-like effect on plasma - which manifests as almost hurtful quick yellow flashes during high-contrast scenes - but the effect is actually more irritating to me than the rainbows I see on DLP.

In light of these new developments, it seems that I'm resigned to only a few types of technologies: FP LCD, RP LCD (which I loathe), RP CRT and Direct-View CRT. The only problem is, the TV I will be buying will be going in my bedroom, roughly 8 ft. back from my bed. This leaves RP LCD and RP CRT out of the equation. The only LCD I remotely like is the 40" Sony XBR. The only direct-view CRT I remotely like is the 34" XBR 960. I can't begin to tell you guys just how disappointed I am about all this.

By the way, has anyone here had any experience with the BenQ 37" LCD available at TVA? It sounds like a sweet deal - and it's 1080p .... shame about it having only one component video input, though.

Any input, help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, guys.
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post #2 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 04:44 PM
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Can you please explain to me the physics behind the phenomenon that you are saying exists? I understand other technologies have filter wheels, but plasma being individuals "light" cells confuses me on how the rainbow effect manifests itself.

Why is it that this effect is almost never talked about here at AVS? I think there was one previous thread.
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post #3 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 04:45 PM
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Wow... you are about the one person in a million who sees this... (too bad for you, really).

Guess you'll have to stick to "live" performances, sporting events and theater instead of video recordings on TV... for shame, really....

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post #4 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1 View Post

Can you please explain to me the physics behind the phenomenon that you are saying exists? I understand other technologies have filter wheels, but plasma being individuals "light" cells confuses me on how the rainbow effect manifests itself.

Why is it that this effect is almost never talked about here at AVS? I think there was one previous thread.

I couldn't possibly tell you about the physics of the problem. I mean, I don't design plasma TVs, nor do I have any real-world knowledge in regards to how they work. All I know is I see rainbows on every single one of them. You want to know how to test for the problem? Go up to a plasma displaying hot whites and wave your hand back and forth across the screen - you'll see a trail of colors. Now, obviously, that's not the ONLY way I see the rainbows. I usuallly see the rainbows during high-contrast scenes. For example, I was watching Return of the King last night - the scene where the Orcs stealthily assault Faramir and his posse ... in that scene .. the warrios of Minas Tirith wear silver amor .... the effect i see happens very often in that scene ... flashes of yellow kind of pulse off their armor .. flashing very quickly .. it's almost imperceptible but long periods of exposure lead to terrible eye strain for me. I also see the effect during the seige of Carentan in Band of Brothers. There's a lot of blooming white in that sequence .. and a lot of camera movement and moving soldiers ... the white flashes are all over the place in that sequence.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...rainbow+plasma

This thread confirms what I'm seeing. And breaks it all down very well.
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post #5 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:04 PM
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Direct view did you mean, I wonder, when FP LCD you said? Projectors and screens does the term FP LCD to my mind bring. Especially when in the same breath mentioned was the BenQ...

Nothing it is, which surpasses in picture quality CRT.

HTH, master.
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post #6 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrible_Tom View Post

Direct view did you mean, I wonder, when FP LCD you said? Projectors and screens does the term FP LCD to my mind bring. Especially when in the same breath mentioned was the BenQ...

Nothing it is, which surpasses in picture quality CRT.

HTH, master.


LOL. Excellent Yodaisms.
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post #7 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:06 PM
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i can see it to ... this is the yellow flash thing between areas of high contrast / high movement??

for me it goes away when im watching the tv in a brighter room ... this is why i never noticed it in the stores !!!


... after a while of watching the tv in a darkened room it seems to go away for the most part .... still going to keep the 50" plasma though !!
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post #8 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:08 PM
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I dont quite understand... the only time this phenomenon occurs is when a color is placed in the set, so most DLP's, and a couple older LCoS sets. Everything else should never have this effect, either your seeing something else, or you may in fact need to get your eyes looked at. Now of course I dont doubt you are seeing what your seeing I just doubt its the RBE.

EDIT (7:49pm): BTW I feel like an idiot, I didnt check the thread title very well, "rainbow-like effect", my apologies.
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post #9 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:36 PM
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One thing that came out of the previous Rainbow thread - was what to call the problem. Some people saw rainbows but others saw partial rainbows. There really was no single cause the problem that was nailed down. The main suspects were: sub-pixel controllers not working correctly and individual perception.

I find this thread and the last very interesting. The reason is (at least to me) that a plasma have phosphors and that the decay times on these are very fast (CRT like). So, the cause most likely some sort of electronics processing.

Maybe a very miscalibrated display combined with a person who is more sensititive to slow processing is the cause? Lighiting and source data may compound the effect. I have to imagine that very few people actual see this.

I find this similar to refresh rates on computer monitors - I used to complain that 60 Hz hurts my eyes, but other people said I was seeing things. The difference here is that many people complained about the 60hz problem, while here at AVS only a few threads address the plasma-rainbow effect

Until I know what it is, I think I call it the PLAINBOW effect short for "plasma rainbow".

Hmmm, interesting...
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post #10 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1 View Post


Until I know what it is, I think I call it the PLAINBOW effect short for "plasma rainbow".

Sure I'll vote on that.
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post #11 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 05:47 PM
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Just remember everyone, there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow!
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post #12 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 07:08 PM
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Quote:


The reason is (at least to me) that a plasma have phosphors and that the decay times on these are very fast (CRT like).

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma. That's ultimately what I'm guessing the cause it. Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have. That wouldn't explain why other plasmas have it too. I'm betting its to do with plasma technology itself. Hence, how the phosphors are being lit.

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post #13 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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My settings are not in torch mode. Contrast is at 15. Brightness is at +2 with the set in Cinema mode (the lowest contrast setting).

I played Halo 2 a bit earlier and noticed that when I moved around it seemed as if the colors would smudge around hot whites. Does anyone know that snow map on Halo 2? I forget the name of it. But that's the map where I noticed this effect. If you move your player's POV from left to right you can see this effect. It resembles a kind of motion blur .. where the colors all bulge together around white spots.

Right now, I'm watching Rome and I see different things ... flashing yellows .. and sometimes different colors ... blue and red.

Weird thing is, i find the problem a lot worse watching movies than when playing games.
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post #14 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma. That's ultimately what I'm guessing the cause it. Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have. That wouldn't explain why other plasmas have it too. I'm betting its to do with plasma technology itself. Hence, how the phosphors are being lit.

I believe that synchronizing the subpixels (elements red, green, and blue) can easily be done with a plasma, and firing time (response time) from tigger to photons out can be very well controlled. It has to be, otherwise the picture would suffer from blurry edges and thing would look like a mess.

To me, the plainbow effect (I like that term) has to be processing delays merged with content (or something the like). I'm not saying controller specifically.

Hmmm...any chance of having some fluorescent lighting nearby? Just a thought.
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post #15 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 07:45 PM
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I recall people complaining about yellow flashes while watching Sin City on plasmas.
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post #16 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 07:51 PM
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Have you seen the rainbows on e-Alis panels? I have a 55" Fujitsu (current model) and I haven't noticed any rainbows - some false contouring at times but no rainbows yet.
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post #17 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Halfpipetrick View Post

Have you seen the rainbows on e-Alis panels? I have a 55" Fujitsu (current model) and I haven't noticed any rainbows - some false contouring at times but no rainbows yet.


Funny you should say that. I was looking at the Hitachi 42HDS52 at CC the other day and thought, for some reason, that I didn't see them on that set. . I love the colors on that panel. I might have to give it a go.
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post #18 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 08:17 PM
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Yoda,

What a strange turn of events. Maybe the E-Alis panels will somehow work for you.

You have my sympathies. I've been intrigued with projectors for quite a while but I see rainbows on every friggin' single-chip DLP. I tried watching Star Wars (Sith) on one recently and there were so many rainbows it became almost ridiculous. Not only that, it appears I may see rainbows (or a rainbow-like effect) even on 3 CHIP DLPS! (Which, lacking color wheels, are not supposed to have any rainbow effect). I was watching a Simm 3 chip DLP projector and the high-contrast areas kept breaking up as my eyes looked around the image. Not into different colors, but the high-light area would break into flashing trails. I mentioned it on the projector forum and the idea was batted around. Someone else said they saw the same thing, and others offered what they thought were technical possibilities for seeing such artifacts even on 3 chip DLPS.

Funny thing is I don't see rainbows on any plasmas. And ever since the plasma-rainbow thing came up I've tried. Even on my own I put on the most brutal rainbow-inducing sequences (the type that are intolerable on DLPs for me) and....nothing. So I don't think I'll keep looking.

Best of luck.
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post #19 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 08:29 PM
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Just to chime in, I see these yellow flashes too on my TH-50PHD8UK.
Sin City was one of the first movies I watched on it, and one of the worst for these flashes. I wouldn't call them rainbows-- they're yellow with a bit of blue.
Don't see any rainbows on my brother's DLP. I have an astigmatism, I wonder if this has any bearing on the perception of these flashes?
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post #20 of 883 Old 11-15-2005, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Bumpidy Dump.
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post #21 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda1 View Post

I couldn't possibly tell you about the physics of the problem. I mean, I don't design plasma TVs, nor do I have any real-world knowledge in regards to how they work. All I know is I see rainbows on every single one of them. You want to know how to test for the problem? Go up to a plasma displaying hot whites and wave your hand back and forth across the screen - you'll see a trail of colors. Now, obviously, that's not the ONLY way I see the rainbows. I usuallly see the rainbows during high-contrast scenes. For example, I was watching Return of the King last night - the scene where the Orcs stealthily assault Faramir and his posse ... in that scene .. the warrios of Minas Tirith wear silver amor .... the effect i see happens very often in that scene ... flashes of yellow kind of pulse off their armor .. flashing very quickly .. it's almost imperceptible but long periods of exposure lead to terrible eye strain for me. I also see the effect during the seige of Carentan in Band of Brothers. There's a lot of blooming white in that sequence .. and a lot of camera movement and moving soldiers ... the white flashes are all over the place in that sequence.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...rainbow+plasma

This thread confirms what I'm seeing. And breaks it all down very well.

I have watched and rewatched that scene (on a Pio 5030) from Return of the King - changing brightness, contrast, saturation and tint, numerous times - and I can't see this rainbow like effect - even waved my hand in front of my eyes a few times (my wife caught me doing this, further confirming her belief that I should be doing some things outside the house). Oh well.

LIY
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post #22 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 05:57 AM
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Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have.

Fujitsu AVM has had it for at least the last 3, I guess now 4, model years.
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Funny you should say that. I was looking at the Hitachi 42HDS52 at CC the other day and thought, for some reason, that I didn't see them on that set.

That's an ALIS panel which is slightly different tech than their 55" eALIS panel. Try the 55" too.

I wonder if refresh rate is a factor. Have you seen a Pio that was "for sure" in 72Hz mode? [I forget if they always use 72Hz refresh or just for 480i and 3:3: pull-down.]

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post #23 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 06:54 AM
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Yoda,
I haven't seen rainbows or flashes since i quit using LSD approx. 35 years ago. Just a hint.
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post #24 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 07:20 AM
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I have never seen this effect on any plasma and I have two of my own a 42PWD4UY and a 50PHD7UY, for what it is worth. Rainbows on a DLP is another matter.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #25 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Doyle View Post

Yoda,
I haven't seen rainbows or flashes since i quit using LSD approx. 35 years ago. Just a hint.


LOL.
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post #26 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 06:42 PM
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>> Not the sub-pixel controller which only Panasonic says that they have.

> Fujitsu AVM has had it for at least the last 3, I guess now 4, model years.

I thought some Fujitsu plasmas used Panasonic glass?

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #27 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Ahhh, but remember that the mechanism lighting the phosphors up is quite different between a CRT and plasma...

Indeed; in a CRT, a single pixel is lit in a rasterized pattern, while in a plasma, pulse-width modulation is used to control AC that ionizes the plasma. We all perceive things a little differently, but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--even at high progressively refreshed frequencies vs. plasma, where the entire frame is lit up all at once.

Yoda1, I didn't see direct-view LCD in your OP. Perhaps you need to steer clear of any display technology that uses high-frequency light modulation to control intensity. LCD's use pulse-amplitude modulation to twist the liquid crystals. Even the "fast" ones still don't have those abrupt non-linear ramps that might be killing your eyes...

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
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post #28 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 08:42 PM
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but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--..

Good point.

Especially after owning a plasma I find the flicker on CRTs to be just terrible. It's particularly annoying as it moves to my peripheral vision (our peripheral vision being more attuned to movement). When I'm staring at the "wall o' tube sets" at, say, a Best Buy the CRT in front of me is relatively stable looking. But all the CRTs beyond that tube set are flickering madly, like a big wall of flicker. It's interesting that Yoda doesn't seem to complain about such flicker.

Seems all our sensitivities vary.
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post #29 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1920x1080 View Post

Indeed; in a CRT, a single pixel is lit in a rasterized pattern, while in a plasma, pulse-width modulation is used to control AC that ionizes the plasma. We all perceive things a little differently, but Yoda1, I'm surprised that you don't actually have a worse problem with CRT flicker--even at high progressively refreshed frequencies vs. plasma, where the entire frame is lit up all at once.

Yoda1, I didn't see direct-view LCD in your OP. Perhaps you need to steer clear of any display technology that uses high-frequency light modulation to control intensity. LCD's use pulse-amplitude modulation to twist the liquid crystals. Even the "fast" ones still don't have those abrupt non-linear ramps that might be killing your eyes...


LCDs don't bother my eyes and neither does CRT. I honestly can't WAIT to get this plasma out of my room, it's absolutely killing my eyes - much worse than DLP, in fact. At this point, it looks like my only recourse is to get an LCD or wait for SED. Or something.

I want you guys to do a test for me. Walk up to a bank of plasmas in a store, or the plasma in your home, find a bright scene and wave your hand across the screen. On every single plasma that I do this, I see a trailer of colors, mostly yellow with a hint of blue and orange.

I visited two stores today - CC and 6th. Ave. - to check and see if I see yellow flashes on the plasmas there .. turns out I do. But it's harder to tell in a bright enviornment. When I'm watching my HP at night, with all the lights off, the yellow flashes attack me. They're very quick ... almost pulse-like ... and they actually hurt. Last night I had to shut the TV off just to get some relief.
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post #30 of 883 Old 11-16-2005, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

...It's particularly annoying as it moves to my peripheral vision (our peripheral vision being more attuned to movement). When I'm staring at the "wall o' tube sets" at, say, a Best Buy the CRT in front of me is relatively stable looking. But all the CRTs beyond that tube set are flickering madly, like a big wall of flicker...

Same here, really bad. It's like I can almost make out the vertical blanking interval in my peripheral vision. Another interesting effect is to, for lack of a better description, mechanically modulate your vision (sexy huh?), say by clearing your throat or coughing while looking at a DLP or CRT image. I first noticed this with PC CRT images years ago...pretty weird strobe-like effect.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
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