Pioneer's NEW 7th Generation Plasmas for 2006-2007 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4252 Old 06-26-2006, 06:50 PM
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I went to buy a Panny like I said I like them. My only point was Pioneer may cost more because it's made of US and Japan parts assembled in the USA. Yeah if the Panny was black I would have bought that. Someone mentioned Pio was overprcied. But if the price comes in labor doesn't matter. To me I will pay more for labor. Just my political standing.
My point was only why it may cost more. If Panny is made the same place then maybe PIO is over priced
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post #632 of 4252 Old 06-26-2006, 07:32 PM
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I would really like to understand the "it's made of US and Japan parts". Last I checked there are ZERO plasma panel manufacturing facilities in the USA. "Parts"? - yeah, right - Most chip and electronic component manufacturers have mfg facilites all over the world - with very few actual foundries in the USA. Maybe the cardboard box is made in the USA...

If you think this post was dumb, you really should read my blog=> http://bumpedhishead.blogspot.com/
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post #633 of 4252 Old 06-26-2006, 11:17 PM
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does anyone think that since the Pioneer 4270/5070 dropped the media reciever they will be directly competitive with the Panasonic and Samsung oce they hit retail stores(other than BB xx71)?

it would be nice to see the 5070 under 3k$ street price. since its not technically out yet i dont see how speculating the street price is breaking any rules.
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post #634 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob_jcv View Post

I would really like to understand the "it's made of US and Japan parts". Last I checked there are ZERO plasma panel manufacturing facilities in the USA. "Parts"? - yeah, right - Most chip and electronic component manufacturers have mfg facilites all over the world - with very few actual foundries in the USA. Maybe the cardboard box is made in the USA...

Last time I checked metal fabrication and plastic injection molding (generically speaking, not Pio specfic) is still done in this country.
The glass and electronics may not be made here but that doesn't prevent the housing, frame, and so forth from being fabricated in the US. They can probably import the electronic components into the US for a lot less than the finished product. Plus reduce damage in transit risks too.

On another topic, I'm one who's waiting for an 1140. I expect information on the Elites will start leaking out shortly. One Elite specific feature that's been revealed is AV networking capability. In another thread a Pioneer employee indicates the 42" and 50" Elites start shipping in August.
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post #635 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 05:17 AM
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Mr. Self Destruct-

The 4270/5070 are out and I have seen them. The retail(MSRP) at BB is $4499 while "street prices" from authorized dealer are MUCH cheaper. I can not state how much cheaper they are, but I can atleast say they are about the same difference that the 5060's were from BB to street.
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post #636 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 10:09 AM
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The 5071 is at BB, not the 5070. To my knowledge, no 5070s have shipped yet or can be seen at any store.

I know.. they're the same thing. I'm just saying that BB is the only place to get a 507x right now.
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post #637 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ View Post

It is called competition. Better values for the consumer. There are plenty of high-priced brands/models for you to buy.

You just can't stand the idea of rest of us are getting a great TV for less. Kind of like the fools who dropped thousands on an audiophile turntable just as CD players were coming out.

DelJ

How is less features for less money a better value?

less features for less money is the same as more features for more money...

The value equation doesnt change with that logic. You obviously arent concerned about value at all, only cost. Be honest with yourself about that.
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post #638 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham View Post

How is less features for less money a better value?

less features for less money is the same as more features for more money...

The value equation doesnt change with that logic. You obviously arent concerned about value at all, only cost. Be honest with yourself about that.

The new model without the media receiver can do the same things as the older model for less cost.

It may be more inconvienent to run the wire for some, but surely a better value.
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post #639 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 11:11 AM
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can anyone comment on Pioneer's burn-in/IR in comparison to Panasonic plasma displays? I've seen several comments that Pioneer's are more prone to burn-in/IR but I'm not sure if those comments were made by actual Pioneer owners. I'm deciding between the 6070 and the 58px600U. I'm leaning towards the 6070 for a variety of reason, but the burn-in/IR problem scares me a bit.
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post #640 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham View Post

How is less features for less money a better value?

less features for less money is the same as more features for more money...

The value equation doesnt change with that logic. You obviously arent concerned about value at all, only cost. Be honest with yourself about that.

Added features that mean nothing to a purchaser, add no value only cost.Value is a perception that like just about everything else varys from one to another.
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post #641 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 02:01 PM
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just to chime in, the only reason i was not interested in the 5060 last year was b/c of the media reciever. i am not mounting the panel on a wall and i dont need another box taking up space plus more wire/junctions interupting the signal.

i was very excited to see Pioneer dropped it this year. my hope is that once the BB monopoly on the 5071 is over and online retailers and smaller B&M shops start carrying the 5070 it will be more price competive to Panasonic and Samsumg, Pioneer just doesnt have that media reciever as an excuse to charge more $ now.
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post #642 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 02:10 PM
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Good afternoon.
I came across this board (and specifically this thread) yesterday and spent a couple of hours trying to absorb the information offered here...an impressive array of input.
I'm close to purchasing a 930HD...my first plasma set. Do the brick and mortar stores typically close these out in light of the expected August ship date for the new Elites or should I just expect to pay MSRP or close to it?
I'd appreciate any additional thoughts you may have on this unit as well.
Thanks again.
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post #643 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

Added features that mean nothing to a purchaser, add no value only cost.Value is a perception that like just about everything else varys from one to another.

You and I have different philosophies, for sure. I cannot count the number of times I've bought an item believing I would never use a feature, then enevitably I am more inclined to use it since I have it.

No one knows what the future holds, as they say.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I apologize for the holier-than-thou attitude in the previous post.
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post #644 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham View Post

How is less features for less money a better value?

less features for less money is the same as more features for more money...

The value equation doesnt change with that logic. You obviously arent concerned about value at all, only cost. Be honest with yourself about that.

It comes down to very basic economics. The market drives what companies do to be competetive. In this case, the market is most interested in spending less money for less features.

The entire point here is that without competition, the largest company could give you whatever they want for however much they'd like to charge you for it. When two companies compete, the consumer always wins. Coke vs Pepsi, Miller Lite vs Bud Lite, McDonalds vs Burger King, etc. Each of those competitive situations ensures that I, the consumer, will always get a great value from either company -- because if I don't, I can just go next-door to spend less and basically get the same thing.

Notice how Burger King doesn't sell a Gourmet Sirloin-Whopper, with imported tomatos and onions, fresh pickles, and and aged special sauce that requires 900 man-hours to produce per gallon. Why not? Because they wouldn't sell very many of those. The market demands an entire meal for right around $5. That Gourmet burger doesn't come anywhere close to meeting that requirement.

So instead of being unhappy about the current state of affairs, think about the alternative. If Panasonic was literally the only show in town, you would be getting less features for more price... and you would have no alternative. So when you think about it, it's really not that bad!
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post #645 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by deepb View Post

Notice how Burger King doesn't sell a Gourmet Sirloin-Whopper, with imported tomatos and onions, fresh pickles, and and aged special sauce that requires 900 man-hours to produce per gallon.

MMMMMMMM....I bet you can almost smell that in 1080P
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post #646 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:16 PM
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Great question and one I have as well. More specifically I am worried due to the NEC's rep of suffering from IR and will this transfer to the new pio's. The view up here on the fence sure is nice and man is that 6070 looking sweet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomOG View Post

can anyone comment on Pioneer's burn-in/IR in comparison to Panasonic plasma displays? I've seen several comments that Pioneer's are more prone to burn-in/IR but I'm not sure if those comments were made by actual Pioneer owners. I'm deciding between the 6070 and the 58px600U. I'm leaning towards the 6070 for a variety of reason, but the burn-in/IR problem scares me a bit.

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post #647 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepb View Post

So instead of being unhappy about the current state of affairs, think about the alternative. If Panasonic was literally the only show in town, you would be getting less features for more price... and you would have no alternative. So when you think about it, it's really not that bad!

We know panasonic has more capacity for manufacturing than Pioneer. That is fact. If Pioneer competed with panasonic on price alone, they could not meet demand, and would fail. That is not fact, but obvious to see, nontheless.

I posed that "Pioneer removed the MR as a response to Panny" as an absolute blow your mind statement. It sparks conversation, but is totally bogus, imo. Personally I dont think Pioneer removed the MR for that purpose at all. Panasonic is not costing Pioneer any sales at all. The 6G panels were backordered for several month due to short supply. Pioneer is selling everything they can produce. *Yet they are still not profitable*

Understand now?

The whole farce of this entire issue is that Pioneer is competing with Panasonic. There is no reason for them to do that, nor for them to want to do that. Consumers seem to want them to compete for some reason. Consumers like to think they are competing, but they are not.

Pioneer needed to decrease the cost of their displays so that they can turn a profit. Its as simple as that. That is why the media receiver was dropped.
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post #648 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur View Post

Great question and one I have as well. More specifically I am worried due to the NEC's rep of suffering from IR and will this transfer to the new pio's. The view up here on the fence sure is nice and man is that 6070 looking sweet.

It will have to be determined since the panels have a new construction, etc. I dont know for sure how they will compare to the 6G panels, but I have had only very very minor IR during the first 100 or so hours that was not permanent. After the first 100 hrs, I've had no issues at all.

This is more of an issue for Pioneer's than Panasonics because Pioneers are brighter. Brighter light means increased potential for IR.

Be sensible for the first 100 hrs, properly adjust the settings, and you will have no issues with either display. You can damage either one if you try to explicitly though.
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post #649 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:51 PM
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I have been in the market for about a year. What I noticed in late '05 was the Pio was not back ordered until the availability of Panny's had dried up.

Perhaps, to Pio's credit, they see the writing on the wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaliciousBraham View Post

We know panasonic has more capacity for manufacturing than Pioneer. That is fact. If Pioneer competed with panasonic on price alone, they could not meet demand, and would fail. That is not fact, but obvious to see, nontheless.

I posed that "Pioneer removed the MR as a response to Panny" as an absolute blow your mind statement. It sparks conversation, but is totally bogus, imo. Personally I dont think Pioneer removed the MR for that purpose at all. Panasonic is not costing Pioneer any sales at all. The 6G panels were backordered for several month due to short supply. Pioneer is selling everything they can produce. *Yet they are still not profitable*

Understand now?

The whole farce of this entire issue is that Pioneer is competing with Panasonic. There is no reason for them to do that, nor for them to want to do that. Consumers seem to want them to compete for some reason. They like to think they are competing, but they are not.

Pioneer needed to decrease the cost of their displays so that they can turn a profit. Its as simple as that. That is why the media receiver was dropped.

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post #650 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 04:59 PM
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Its fun playing armchair ceo, isnt it?
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post #651 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob_jcv View Post

I would really like to understand the "it's made of US and Japan parts". Last I checked there are ZERO plasma panel manufacturing facilities in the USA. "Parts"? - yeah, right - Most chip and electronic component manufacturers have mfg facilites all over the world - with very few actual foundries in the USA. Maybe the cardboard box is made in the USA...

Dunno but thats what it says on the back of the tv. Next time I take it off the wall I'll take a pic if it's that big of a deal
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post #652 of 4252 Old 06-27-2006, 05:59 PM
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A/V networking as in remote send signal to the panel, panel back to MR, MR controls elite dvd player and receiver? The new USB feature is nice, but that also eliminates another difference between elite and non-elites, as the 6th gen, the elites had memory card readers on the MR.

like someone said earlier, for the street price, just look at Pio's history, not hard to determine it, but less than 3k is unreasonable. I'll stop there before the mods ban me.

Plasma/LCD economy: http://www.witsview.com/
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post #653 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 05:31 AM
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What is the 4270HD going for $? Who have them to ship? Would Omini U3-T universal mount works well with? PM me, if you have direct access to 4270HD...Thanks.
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post #654 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosh2258 View Post

Last time I checked metal fabrication and plastic injection molding (generically speaking, not Pio specfic) is still done in this country.
The glass and electronics may not be made here but that doesn't prevent the housing, frame, and so forth from being fabricated in the US. They can probably import the electronic components into the US for a lot less than the finished product. Plus reduce damage in transit risks too.

On another topic, I'm one who's waiting for an 1140. I expect information on the Elites will start leaking out shortly. One Elite specific feature that's been revealed is AV networking capability. In another thread a Pioneer employee indicates the 42" and 50" Elites start shipping in August.

I'll bet the majority of the cost of making a PDP is the actual glass/plasma panel - and those plants are not in the USA. I have no idea where the frame & bezels are molded - but it could just as easily be done in the Pacific Rim. Isn't most of the really high volume injection molding production no longer in the USA?

If you think this post was dumb, you really should read my blog=> http://bumpedhishead.blogspot.com/
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post #655 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 06:07 AM
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After about a year of reading the panny and pio threads I took the plunge and purchased the Pioneer pdp-5070hd. It's being delivered today.

I'll give my 2 cents, good and bad, after I spark it up later today.
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post #656 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob_jcv View Post

I'll bet the majority of the cost of making a PDP is the actual glass/plasma panel - and those plants are not in the USA. I have no idea where the frame & bezels are molded - but it could just as easily be done in the Pacific Rim. Isn't most of the really high volume injection molding production no longer in the USA?


Found this the other day--shows a breakdown in costs.
http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20060623PR203.html
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post #657 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob_jcv View Post

I'll bet the majority of the cost of making a PDP is the actual glass/plasma panel - and those plants are not in the USA. I have no idea where the frame & bezels are molded - but it could just as easily be done in the Pacific Rim. Isn't most of the really high volume injection molding production no longer in the USA?

I never said the majority of the cost wasn't in the electronics. I simply pointed out that there in fact can very well be US sourced content in the displays besides the box, which isn't considered in the equation.

The US has a large base of suppliers for engineered plastics, especially to the auto industry, and they'd be perfectly capable of providing these components, very competitively by the way, to Pioneer for final assembly here.
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post #658 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 03:05 PM
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Does anyone know, and if so would they take the time to tell me, what the exact differences will be between the Elites soon to be released and the already available 'regular' line of PDPs. I just stopped at BB to look at a 4071 and it would work perfectly as a replacement for my 3 year old 37" Panny EDTV. If the Elites have features worth waiting for, then I may hold out for one of them.
TIA,
Bish
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post #659 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 05:05 PM
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This Thread has turned to Rubishhhhh.....

I just spent an hour and a half comparing the 5061 to the 5071 at our local BB. The long and the short of it...

There's not a hay'penny difference in the black level between the two sets, I even thought a couple of times that the 5060 had a slight edge. Regardless, there is no real difference in black level.

There sure is a difference in resolution, that is, PERCEIVED resolution. Hands down, the 5071 is a clear step up from the 5061. As far as shadow detail, after adjusting both of them to my hearts content, there was almost no difference in the shadow detail...if there is one, the ever so slight edge goes to the 5071.

Both were the typical neon colors, high contrast - high brightness - high sharpness settings. After dialing down the parameters, both delivered a beautiful, smooth "punchy" picture. People who prefer the Pioneer richness and saturation will be thrilled by the 5071 in my opinion, because there is a discernable improvement in resolution and detail of the new set. Of the Three bystanders watching me fiddle, all three preferred the 5071 and as an aside, all three preferred the 5071 to the Panasonic PX60. To me, the Panasonic still has "something" that is lacking in the Pioneer...an "even-ness" to the transitions from dark to light that simply looks more lifelike to me...not as eye-catching, not as overstated as the other plasmas, the Pioneer included, but just more like looking at your everyday surroundings. Dull and Boring for most of us! But definitely a half-step in the direction of looking out of a plate glass window...please forgive the personal statements here, a mere digression.

I merely wanted to say that Pioneer deserves a hearty congratulations for the improvements in the 5070 and the 4270. Higher resolution, beautiful form factor, lots of user control over the image, pretty good sounding speakers, just a beautiful job. Those who prefer the extra "PoP" in the Pioneer image will be very pleased with these new sets....IMHO, and those who prefer a more understated, and to me a more realistic image, will stick with the Panasonic commercial panels.

Boy am I in for a FLAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #660 of 4252 Old 06-28-2006, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomboyter View Post

This Thread has turned to Rubishhhhh.....

I just spent an hour and a half comparing the 5061 to the 5071 at our local BB. The long and the sort of it...

There's not a hay'penny difference in the black level between the two sets, i even thought a couple of times that the 5060 had a slight edge. Regardless, there is no real difference in black level.

There sure is a difference in resolution, that is PERCEIVED resolution. Hands down, the 5071 is a clear step up from the 5061. As far as shadow detail, after adjusting both of them to my hearts content, there was almost no difference in the shadow detail...if there is one, the ever so slight edge goes to the 5071.

Both were the typical neon colors, high contrast - high brightness - high sharpness settings. After dialing down the parameters, both delivered a beautiful, smooth "punchy" picture. People who prefer the Pioneer richness and saturation will be thrilled by the 5071 in my opinion, because there is a discernable improvement in resolution and detail of the new set. Of the Three bystanders watching me fiddle, all three preferred the 5071 and as an aside, all three preferred the 5071 to the Panasonic PX60. To me, the Panasonic still has "something" that is lacking in the Pioneer...an "even-ness" to the transitions from dark to light that simply looks more lifelike to me...not as eye-catching, not as overstated as the other plasmas, the Pioneer included, but just more like looking at your everyday surroundings. Dull and Boring for most of us! But definitely a half-step in the direction of looking out of a plate glass window...please forgive the personal statements here, a mere digression.

I merely wanted to say that Pioneer deserves a heqarty congratulations for the improvements in the 5070 and the 4270. Higher resolution, beautiful form factor, lots of user control over the image, pretty good sounding speakers, just a beautiful job. Those who prefer the extra "PoP" in the Pioneer image will be very pleased with these new sets....IMHO, and those who prefer a more understated, and to me a more realistic image, will stick with the Panasonic commercial panels.

Boy am I in for a FLAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's pretty much what I'd expect to tell you truly. The NEC heritage of high resolution and excellent scaling married to the colors of Pio. Don't forget the advantage of 1080p24 input which can be displayed at 768p72 with no motion judder. This is significant IMO.

Incremental not monumental improvements are what we should expect at this point.

The last thing for me would be to confirm that this panel supports native rate and at what frequencies (don't forget the Euro/Aussie folks).
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