Pioneer Pro-FHD1 (1080p) Plasma - First Impressions.... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2349 Old 08-11-2006, 01:32 PM
 
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I have to agree with cirob. I did a comparison with Pitch Black and the details on the FHD in dark areas was better (IMHO). However, with Narnia, I thought the 600 looked better. Overall, I use almost the same methodology as cirob when evaluating plasmas :)
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post #92 of 2349 Old 08-11-2006, 04:22 PM
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If you could ask a store to do anything to assist in comparing the two, what would you ask?

(A store near me has 5070 on wall, 1130 on wall, and the FHD1 in a box)

For example
a) side by side in a dim room
b) calibrated with AVIA
c) fed from the same source (HDMI splitter?)
d) using Toshiba HD-XA1
e) using one of these HD-DVDs (pick scenes chapter/seconds)

16 Blocks (Warner) <- COMBO
Apollo 13 (Universal)
Assault on Precinct 13 (Universal)
Bourne Supremacy (Universal)
Chronicles of Riddick (Universal)
Constantine (Warner)
Dukes of Hazzard (Warner)
Firewall (Warner) <- COMBO
The Fugitive (Warner)
Full Metal Jacket (Warner)
Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (Paramount)
Last Samurai (Warner)
Lethal Weapon (Warner)
Perfect Storm (Warner)
Pitch Black (Universal)
Rundown (Universal)
Sahara (Paramount)
Serenity (Universal)
Sky Captain and the World of Tommorow (Paramount)
Sleepy Hollow (Paramount)
Swordfish (Warner)
Syriana (Warner)
Training Day (Warner)
U-571 (Universal)
Unforgiven (Warner)
Van Helsing (Universal)

So, what would you ask them to have/show ?
What would you want to see or be looking for, and what source would show it?

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post #93 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 10:20 AM
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I saw this TV in the BB magnolia area (Westminster Mall). They were showing the Samsung loop on this TV only. On some scenes, the depth of the colors were jaw-dropping. I did notice the scenes with the models that the skin was lacking definition and seemed soft. But other scenes had huge detail. I agree totally with the premise that you have to be about 6 feet away to enjoy the impact. I have an old 64 inch Pioneer CRT I will be looking to replace in the next year. Looking at the SXRD and the new LED RPTVs, but I will also be looking at the 65 inch panasonic. I did not want to have to worry about burn-in any more however.
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post #94 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cirob
The display where splitting a hddvd signal playing a movie I had with me , doom. This movie has to be the darkest ever made. I spent 1 hour looking at these 3 display, after a while I lost interest in the fuji and came down to the 600u and the fhd. I was seing details in dark scene on the fhd that wheren't on the 600u. The blacks and overall colors on the fhd where deeper and sharp

In former times I would ask whether the DVDPs you were looking at were capable of blacker than black. This is a real concern in traditional 480i DVDPs, which most of us still have, first called to our attention via Joe Kane in his now out of print work of art, Video Essentials. (Or maybe even in his previous LD version, the groundbreaking A Video Standard, but I never looked for it there...)

Is this a concern with the new HD disc players, and if so, how do we track it like we can track regular 480i DVDPs, using VE's pluge pattern?

Or can we simply trust that this concern has been taken care of in the 1080i/p HD disc format itself, and will never again be a worry?


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post #95 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob

Keep in mind that HD DVD/BluRay is recorded in 1080i. For conversion up to 1080p, it takes exquisite and pristine algorithms.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
Just to pick nits, HD DVD and BD are encoded onto disks at 1080p24 for film sourced material. I think you may be confused about the output of this at 1080i60 for both the Toshiba HD A1 and the Samsung BDP1000. They both share the same broadcom decoder chip which limits output to 1080i60. The Tosh just pipes this out, while the Samsung added a gensis chip after the decode late in the game to enable (somewhat buggy) 1080p60 output via digital outs (component being limited to piping out 1080i60 anyway by AACS specs and thus doesn't use the faroudja gensis chip).
Excellent data! Would not have any access to such details without boards like this. Thanks for your insight.

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post #96 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 02:10 PM
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I saw this unit again last night and remain totally disappointed with the end-results. Standing with another shopper and the Magnolia Dept Manager, we all agreed the 1130 looked better than the FH1 (the 1130 appeared to have better color differentiation) and the 50" Panny sitting in the middle looked better than either of the Pioneers. There was a Discovery HD update which had some space shots with the deep black of space. The Panasonic clearly had more depth than either of the Pioneers with this material. In fact, the Panasonic had more depth on virtually every scene we watched.

Again I know the feed (D*) was less than desirable, but man, this is still what the source material is more likely to be as opposed to HD DVD. Adding to this, all of the demos I've seen have shown the FH1's colors to be too cool and therefore the 1130 looks better. They really need to calibrate these things. But it does raise the question as to why the 1130 always looks better....is it logical to assume that all the 1130s I've seen have been calibrated but not the FH1s? It may be more logical to assume that, for whatever reason, Pioneer has the default setting of the FH1 set too cool.
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post #97 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 03:02 PM
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ken, why is the 5070 not being used in your comparisons? you keep using the 1130, but the 1130 is 6th generation glass. id be curious your impressions of the 5070 properly adjusted vs. the panny 50 inch and the fhd1. ya i know the 1130 is suppsed to have a little better electronics than the 5060, but i say compare newest to newest.
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post #98 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 03:36 PM
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So has anyone tried comparing this TV to current 1080P panels like the Westinhouse series? It would be interesting to see if the pciture is really that much better.
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post #99 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 04:11 PM
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i seriously doubt that a westinghouse 1080p LCD is even near the same class as a 1080p pioneer plasma.
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post #100 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 04:24 PM
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[quote=Ken Ross]


in my case I WANTED the panasonic or the fuji to have a better picture then the fhd1 they had great deals on both, the fuji was a 55", I used the toshiba hddvd player for comparison, I spent more then an hour there with remotes I ended up with the pio, to me the pq on the pio was superior, I am certantly not doubting what you saw it is in the eye of the beholder after all, I never saw a fuji I liked and I know they get great reviews but I am not going to buy if it doesn't impress me same with panasonic and this is the second time around the first time I decided on the nec50xr5. The only disappointment so far is lack of true 1080p content, samsung and the blueray format aren't there yet imo.
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post #101 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
I saw this unit again last night and remain totally disappointed with the end-results. Standing with another shopper and the Magnolia Dept Manager, we all agreed the 1130 looked better than the FH1 (the 1130 appeared to have better color differentiation) and the 50" Panny sitting in the middle looked better than either of the Pioneers. There was a Discovery HD update which had some space shots with the deep black of space. The Panasonic clearly had more depth than either of the Pioneers with this material. In fact, the Panasonic had more depth on virtually every scene we watched.

Again I know the feed (D*) was less than desirable, but man, this is still what the source material is more likely to be as opposed to HD DVD. Adding to this, all of the demos I've seen have shown the FH1's colors to be too cool and therefore the 1130 looks better. They really need to calibrate these things. But it does raise the question as to why the 1130 always looks better....is it logical to assume that all the 1130s I've seen have been calibrated but not the FH1s? It may be more logical to assume that, for whatever reason, Pioneer has the default setting of the FH1 set too cool.

I would love to get you some settings for the 1130. I bet you would change your mind on which looked best with these settings ;)

Let me know if you are interested.
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post #102 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrell
i seriously doubt that a westinghouse 1080p LCD is even near the same class as a 1080p pioneer plasma.
i suspect you haven't seen a westinghouse lcd 1080p (42) with a good source.

i've yet to see an image on this pioneer that looks as good as my westinghouse at home. i shouldn't even be able to make that statement given the price difference, right?

leave it to those magnolia people to get the set up right or wrong but they had it hooked up to espn hd and blu ray, needless to say it did not perform well.

i suspect the only differences will only be between technologies ie: plasma or lcd. either you like one or the other. the westy has off axis issues, not as bad as some and not as good as others (sony) but the image in normal/prime seating positions
looks like a million bucks.

i only wish someone would set these two up for a side by side comparison.

i know of no place that has these sets set up side by side and suspect that no one will because of the price difference. why would they kill any potential sales of the ultra expensive plasmas by comparing it to an off brand?
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post #103 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 08:38 PM
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I've seen the 57" Samsung 1080p LCD next to plasmas that sell for half as much (a 42" Pio Elite and a 50" Panny 600U) and the plasmas looked just as good, even from head on. The Samsung lcd is detailed and sharp but lacks the depth of image, contrast and color fidelity of the plasmas. Maybe the Westy is better than the Sammy.

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post #104 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 08:44 PM
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I wonder what the margins on the FHD1 are for your garden-variety BB? Costa Mesa BB has other, older sreens in prominent display positions, and the Pro-FHD1 sort of tucked out of the way, typically playing some random SD feed. Today it was I Love Lucy, doubtful to show that--or any screen--off to its best advantage.

No presentation, no effort whatsoever to show off each screen to its best advantage. I probably am expecting too much. Sad that the consumer has to do the work to determine what purchase to make instead of the retailer driving "gotta have it" interest at the point of sale.

A.B.
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post #105 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman
I've seen the 57" Samsung 1080p LCD next to plasmas that sell for half as much (a 42" Pio Elite and a 50" Panny 600U) and the plasmas looked just as good, even from head on. The Samsung lcd is detailed and sharp but lacks the depth of image, contrast and color fidelity of the plasmas. Maybe the Westy is better than the Sammy.

i haven't been too impressed with the new samsung 1080p's either. i'm sure they've mucked with something to achieve higher contrast levels. looks like a lot of plasmas that i see. lots of contrast, but less depth and atmosphere.
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post #106 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman
I've seen the 57" Samsung 1080p LCD next to plasmas that sell for half as much (a 42" Pio Elite and a 50" Panny 600U) and the plasmas looked just as good, even from head on. The Samsung lcd is detailed and sharp but lacks the depth of image, contrast and color fidelity of the plasmas. Maybe the Westy is better than the Sammy.
Agreed, at least about the sammy. It was WAY high on my gotta-see list, but on multiple viewings--including one last chance today--it just didn't sing to me.

A.B.
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post #107 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrell
ken, why is the 5070 not being used in your comparisons? you keep using the 1130, but the 1130 is 6th generation glass. id be curious your impressions of the 5070 properly adjusted vs. the panny 50 inch and the fhd1. ya i know the 1130 is suppsed to have a little better electronics than the 5060, but i say compare newest to newest.
These are the BB setups in my area. I'd love to have very different comparisons to make. The first thing I'd do is hook up an HD DVD unit to the FH1. But even so, based on what I've seen, I'm concerned about the black levels of the FH1. Perhaps they've all been misadjusted, but I'm seeing this same 'step backward' in black levels on the FH1s I've seen.
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post #108 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
I would love to get you some settings for the 1130. I bet you would change your mind on which looked best with these settings ;)

Let me know if you are interested.

I'm already finding the 1130 PQ to be better than the FH1 based on the displays I've seen. So are you saying that your settings would widen the gap or narrow it?

But again, I don't think these setups are being fair to the FH1 since the source is not at all taxing the capabilities of the FH1. Add to that the fact that the color on these units never seem to be properly calibrated (always too cool) and you have the ingredients for a not so 'pretty picture'. :(
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post #109 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 10:09 PM
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Ken Ross: Now I can't swear that I know what the greatest Plasma is in the history of the universe--all I know is this: Whenever someone like R. Harkness or yourself or any of a number of people who actually own such things--have seen even more and have been around the block even more comment the one thing that keeps ringing through your ears is "the panasonics had the better blacks."

Now I'm not asking everyone to bow down and worship Panasonic--Pioneer is not bad and Fujitsu makes some outstanding plasmas but is it safe to say that if Panasonic IS still better at blacks then it maybe is a little bit better of a set than the all the NAYSAYERS around here say it is?

Do you think that if the Panasonics had came out with all black cases that we wouldn't hear the current Pioneer counter attack?

What if they mad another black line and charge the same price as the Pioneers? I think the same NAYSAYERS would be raving about the set and I don't think it would have anything to do with the picture!

In other words you could have a panasonic 60U Picture or a Panasonic 600U picure in a pretty black case--price it the same as Pioneer and resurrect the name Onyx and people would be wbowing down and worshipping it!

People who can look at both the price of a silver Fujitsu and still say that it is superior--well I tend to believe THOSE people. What do you think?
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post #110 of 2349 Old 08-12-2006, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood
Ken Ross: Now I can't swear that I know what the greatest Plasma is in the history of the universe--all I know is this: Whenever someone like R. Harkness or yourself or any of a number of people who actually own such things--have seen even more and have been around the block even more comment the one thing that keeps ringing through your ears is "the panasonics had the better blacks."
Artwood,

In the comparisons I've seen so far the Panasonic did have deeper black levels than the Pioneer Pro-FHD1. However, as I've said, that is without my adjusting any picture controls on the Pioneer. So there's no way I could render a reliable opinion on that, at the moment. But for whatever reason in both stores I've seen the Pioneer Pro-FHD1, it's black levels looked mildly, but distinctly higher than the non-1080p models beside it. So I don't know if the black levels are actually higher on the 1080p model, or if it has some out-of-the-box setting that makes them appear higher.
That's why I want to go back and fiddle with the brightness contrast controls, in a light controlled room, beside the Panasonic (hopefully Monday).

As far as the current state of affairs in the "black level wars," each time I've been able to compare current Panny black levels to current Pioneer (non-1080p) black levels, the Panasonics have struck me as having slightly deeper blacks.

However, you have to throw into the mix people here like D-Nice. I believe he has both a 7th gen Pioneer and the latest gen Panasonic at his home and I'm pretty sure he's said that he finds the Pioneer black levels commensurate with the Panasonic.
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post #111 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood
Ken Ross: Now I can't swear that I know what the greatest Plasma is in the history of the universe--all I know is this: Whenever someone like R. Harkness or yourself or any of a number of people who actually own such things--have seen even more and have been around the block even more comment the one thing that keeps ringing through your ears is "the panasonics had the better blacks."
I think the one recurring thing I've seen in all these setups is improperly adjusted FH1s. With that said, I'm still getting the distinct feeling that no matter how these FH1s are adjusted, they'll wind up with higher black levels than the latest gen Pioneer non-1080p panels. The newest non-1080p Pioneer panels have impressed me with their black levels, although I've still found the Panasonics to be a bit better in that regard. More importantly, it's a question of degree. I don't think the slightly worse black levels of the non-1080p Pioneers would be a deal break for me, but the black levels I've seen thus far on the 1080p Pioneers would be a deal break......for me.

I'm less concerned about the off-color in the FH1s I've seen thus far. I'm far more confident that the color can be dialed in to a more typical Pioneer color pallette.

But Art, you know how important I feel black levels are not only for night scenes, but for the vast majority of scenes. They lend an added level of depth that simply can't be compensated for in any other way. This is why I ultimately fell in love with Fujitsus. They start off with a Panasonic panel (best blacks) and then add their own electronic magic.

This is why I'm so anxious to see the upcoming 65" 1080p Panasonic. In my mind this will be the first real test of 1080p in a large sized plasma. It should be fun! :)
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post #112 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 08:21 AM
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"i seriously doubt that a westinghouse 1080p LCD is even near the same class as a 1080p pioneer plasma"

Thats kind of a a lame answer, the westinghouses have an oustanding picture, it would be nice to see a realife comparison, does the pioneer really blow away the westinghouse or is the extra 7500$ going towards a nameplate?
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post #113 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 08:54 AM
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@D-Nice, did you have a chance to compare the FHD1 to the 768p Pioneers yet? I'd like to hear your opinion about how they compare.
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post #114 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
@D-Nice, did you have a chance to compare the FHD1 to the 768p Pioneers yet? I'd like to hear your opinion about how they compare.
That's exactly what I wanted to ask him, too. I respect D-Nice very much, so I wanted to hear some opinion about the Pio FHD-1 from him as well.


Also I trust guys like Rich Harkness and Ken Ross. They know their stuff, and very highly experienced.. so I am convinced when they said about having better black levels. I too always have been enjoying my Panny's deep black levels. Even now I still say "Wow" when I watch movies.
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post #115 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
I'm already finding the 1130 PQ to be better than the FH1 based on the displays I've seen. So are you saying that your settings would widen the gap or narrow it?
The settings would show you exactly what a 1130 can truly do. I would have to verify if they would have the same impact on the FHD-1.


Quote:
But again, I don't think these setups are being fair to the FH1 since the source is not at all taxing the capabilities of the FH1. Add to that the fact that the color on these units never seem to be properly calibrated (always too cool) and you have the ingredients for a not so 'pretty picture'. :(
IMO there is only one setup at this time that will show exactly what the FHD-1 can do.....the Toshiba HD DVD player. What we receive thru cable and satellite is truly a joke for any 1080p display (Verizon FIOS not included). This is why I have no interest in purchasing one **UNLESS** it would exclusively be used for HD DVD (also BD when they get their act together) sources.
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post #116 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosng
i've yet to see an image on this pioneer that looks as good as my westinghouse at home. i shouldn't even be able to make that statement given the price difference, right?
Unless your lcd is made out of crt phosphors, color accuracy will never come close to plasma.. Green will look neon compared to plasma which looks ultra real... Displayable colors? No comparison ever.. Lcd wont ever come close. Sorry but its the truth.
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post #117 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 10:59 AM
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IMO there is only one setup at this time that will show exactly what the FHD-1 can do.....the Toshiba HD DVD player. What we receive thru cable and satellite is truly a joke for any 1080p display (Verizon FIOS not included). This is why I have no interest in purchasing one **UNLESS** it would exclusively be used for HD DVD (also BD when they get their act together) sources.[/quote]

that's what I have been saying, watch pitch black or doom with a toshiba hddvd then compare the blacks with the panasonic, I know is foolish but I am keeping it.
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post #118 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D-Nice

IMO there is only one setup at this time that will show exactly what the FHD-1 can do.....the Toshiba HD DVD player.
That is my thinking about the FHD-1 too. Luckily I was able to see a demonstration of the FHD-1's "full potential" by seeing the uncompressed Sharp 1080i HD footage playing on the FHD-1. And it did indeed spring to life and excell past the other panels.

(Though, I'd also like to see the same source on the lower res panels, as I'm sure they would also look spectacular as well....how close to the FHD-1 I still can't say).

For me 1080p means getting rid of the screen door effect, allowing me closer viewing distances, and using it with the new High Definition DVD formats to squeeze out everything Hi-Def DVD has to offer.
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post #119 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness
Artwood,

In the comparisons I've seen so far the Panasonic did have deeper black levels than the Pioneer Pro-FHD1. However, as I've said, that is without my adjusting any picture controls on the Pioneer. So there's no way I could render a reliable opinion on that, at the moment. But for whatever reason in both stores I've seen the Pioneer Pro-FHD1, it's black levels looked mildly, but distinctly higher than the non-1080p models beside it. So I don't know if the black levels are actually higher on the 1080p model, or if it has some out-of-the-box setting that makes them appear higher.
That's why I want to go back and fiddle with the brightness contrast controls, in a light controlled room, beside the Panasonic (hopefully Monday).
The FHD-1 has a "static" contrast ratio of 3000:1 compared to the 6th and 7th gen regular Pioneer's 4000:1. Based on that, it's black levels should be slightly higher. This should be noticeable when they are side by side, but "should not" bother someone when its playing solo.


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As far as the current state of affairs in the "black level wars," each time I've been able to compare current Panny black levels to current Pioneer (non-1080p) black levels, the Panasonics have struck me as having slightly deeper blacks.
That may depend on what color temp setting the Panasonic is on. I've found that when the Panasonic is set to "Warm" the blacks appear to look deeper compared to a color temp of "Normal". The "Warm" color temp setting produces a "yellow haze" which the human eye "perceives" as rendering "deeper blacks". All of this is due to the below D65 grayscale tracking Panasonic has employed on the lower spectrum of their grayscale. Panasonic's "Normal" color temp setting renders a more neutral lower end grayscale.

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However, you have to throw into the mix people here like D-Nice. I believe he has both a 7th gen Pioneer and the latest gen Panasonic at his home and I'm pretty sure he's said that he finds the Pioneer black levels commensurate with the Panasonic.
Actually I own two Elite 1130s and one 37PX60u. I have scrutinized both to the point where comparing them any further (by me) is futile. IMHO the blacks, while watching anything besides a completely blank screen, are a draw. Of course, if you "get your rocks off" by watching a totally blank screen, the Panasonic 9th gen is uncontested. Even with the darkest scenes of War of the Worlds and Doom, I have yet to see anything that would make me say "Hey the Panasonics do have better black levels". I have watched these movies numerous times side by side and separated. I stand by what I see at my house.

I have come to the conclusion that neither brand is better than the other. They are just different and I prefer the differences Pioneer offers in their Elite brands for my primary displays. IMHO, if Panasonic offered the same picture controls/features the Pioneer Elite does, I would exclusively purchase Panasonic plasmas. At this point in time, they don't (the commercial version comes closes, but not close enough). So I will continue to purchase both Panasonic and Pioneer displays as they are truly the best.
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post #120 of 2349 Old 08-13-2006, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi
@D-Nice, did you have a chance to compare the FHD1 to the 768p Pioneers yet? I'd like to hear your opinion about how they compare.
I have been WAAAAAYYYY too busy lately to see the FHD-1. I'm really trying to go see one today.
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