Pioneer Pro-FHD1 (1080p) Plasma - First Impressions.... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2349 Old 08-20-2006, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross
Well I got to see my first FH1 properly calibrated (I think) and hooked up to the Blu-Ray demo. This was obviously not a BB, but rather a high-end video shop in N.Y. Although the panel looked better than my previous 3 encounters, it still didn't look as good to my eyes as the 'poppier' 1130 or much poppier Fujitsu 42" HD panel sitting on an adjoining wall. The color was certainly better than I'd seen on prior occasions, but to be honest, the picture just kind of left me flat. The Fujitsu had the 'looking through the window' effect that I so love, but the FH1 was very lacking in this respect. I really am finding the black levels on the FH1 to be contributing to a picture that is somewhat lacking in dimensionality.

Dreaux, I honestly think the Qualia is in an entirely different league than the Pioneer. Just about everytime I saw that unit, my jaw dropped. There's no way I personally would have gone from the Qualia to the FH1. If it weren't for the size of the Qualia, I would definitely have seriously considered it.
I agree...never owned a Plasma and wanted to try one. I found the black levels 'crushed' on the FH1.
I hope to get back my Qualia this week....the deliverers are going to hate me with the weight of that thing.
A note on the Blu-ray. I was waiting for the Sony to come out but looked at the Samsung.....Ahhhh I think they took the Blu-ray out of the oven too soon.
Went HD-DVD because of it excellent SD DVD unconverting over the Blu-ray. PQ is great. I think the blu-ray has been over hyped IMHO.
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post #182 of 2349 Old 08-20-2006, 05:17 PM
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Lets give blue ray a chance...I mean this is the first player, I would not buy it only would trust in sony or pioneer . I rememeber when dvd came out the tosh was the first player but the player to have was the SONY.. Give you fdh1 a chance once those blue ray players come out there is an interesting post in blue ray players in which a fdhi and pioneer player was demostrated with great results. When I was at tweeter NOTHING compared to FHD1
period. I would also get you set professionally calibrated to get the best picture. I would trust Sony and pioneer to bring us some kick asss players, software on the other hand could play a role depending the encoding and most of the blue ray dics released have not been stellar. Just dont rush to judgement
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post #183 of 2349 Old 08-20-2006, 05:25 PM
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OK, as you can tell from my join date and post count, I've been around here for a while, although I don't post much. Spend more time reading and looking at new stuff than I do posting.

Anyway, I've spent the last several days going to every local BB (5 in all) and looking at every one of the FHD1's in the various environments next to or near almost every imaginable flavor of the "higher end" PDP's. I've had the pleasure of reading Mr. Harkness' reviews and sage advice in connection with various products on this forum over the years, and after seeing this product against all of the competition, I personally believe he nailed it.

My own experience, in BB after BB, viewing both "good" HD source material and poor HD source material, is that this panel excels in just about every category, except blacks, where I think the 600U edges it out. In particular, from about 6-7 feet, on every type of HD material I saw, the FHD1 was noticeably smoother. The worse the material got, the more noticeable this difference got IMHO. On one HD satellite feed where I saw the FHD1, 1130HD, and 600U all lined up in a row from 6 feet away, the main subjects of the shots were so pixel edge enhanced (noise "hash") on the slightest movements, that it bordered on unwatchable. The FHD1, while not delivering a perfect picture on this poor material, had much less noise, and consequently it was much less bothersome. I didn't have a chance to play with any noise filters, so I'm not 100 percent how much I was seeing was adjustment-related, but the difference between the pictures was very significant (also, all the other 50's in the store had this same problem from the poor source, with the 1130HD being the next smoothest from the FHD1, and the Panny next in line.)

On good material. like HD-DVD (I convinced a sales guy to hook up an HD-XA1 via HDMI in place of the Samsung Blu-Ray it was being demoed with), the thing threw off simply the best HD picture I've ever seen (I've had HD via front projector since 2000, and via PDP for about 2 years). Even the Universal logo on the Serenity HD DVD simply made my jaw drop (I've seen this logo and movie several times on other PDPs already). There were no artifacts I could see on the main subjects in every seen--very smooth yet sharp as hell. Serenity has a fair amount of mosquito noise/"sparklies" in the background, especially in desert scenes--it was still there, but greatly reduced. I'm betting when I have a chance to dial in the noise filters and get it ISF calibrated, the difference will be even greater in favor of the FHD1. By the way, Blu-Ray looked decent as well, although noticeably softer (on Ultraviolet, anyway).

I don't know if one of the BB's (the one with the 1130HD and 600U lined up next to the FHD1) happened to have the the FHD1 dialed in while the other two were not, but the color rendition on the FHD1 was simply truer, more lifelike (even though I think the color level was set lower), and more even on that set than the other two. Again, not clear how much of this was the settings on each set, or just inherent benefits of the 1080P panel right out of the box.

I sit 6-7 feet away from my current 42" HP (PL4245N) PDP, and had come to the conclusion that a 50" would still work in that space, although I had no immediate plans to get one. I completely agree with the sentiment that if you're much more than about 8 feet away, either don't spend the extra money on a 1080P (get the 50" 600U, is all I have to say on that point), or wait for the 60" and 65" 1080P's to come out, at probably the same retail price point. Those will be simply too big for my space.

I really wasn't in the market to upgrade right now, but after spending a whole day looking at a bunch of FHD1's and a bunch of the other current bests of the best, and after BB/Magnolia made an offer I couldn't refuse, I bit the bullet. They will work with you on these sets if you push a bit.

Picking it up in a few days, and will break my silence once again to provide additional thoughts once it's hanging on the wall.

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post #184 of 2349 Old 08-20-2006, 05:32 PM
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Jeff is a man who puts his money where is mouth is....thumbs up to you...and if you can you pm the price you paid, did you get a extended warrary and was there a delivery charge-thanks
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post #185 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lederman
OK, as you can tell from my join date and post count, I've been around here for a while, although I don't post much. Spend more time reading and looking at new stuff than I do posting.

Anyway, I've spent the last several days going to every local BB (5 in all) and looking at every one of the FHD1's in the various environments next to or near almost every imaginable flavor of the "higher end" PDP's. I've had the pleasure of reading Mr. Harkness' reviews and sage advice in connection with various products on this forum over the years, and after seeing this product against all of the competition, I personally believe he nailed it.

My own experience, in BB after BB, viewing both "good" HD source material and poor HD source material, is that this panel excels in just about every category, except blacks, where I think the 600U edges it out. In particular, from about 6-7 feet, on every type of HD material I saw, the FHD1 was noticeably smoother. The worse the material got, the more noticeable this difference got IMHO. On one HD satellite feed where I saw the FHD1, 1130HD, and 600U all lined up in a row from 6 feet away, the main subjects of the shots were so pixel edge enhanced (noise "hash") on the slightest movements, that it bordered on unwatchable. The FHD1, while not delivering a perfect picture on this poor material, had much less noise, and consequently it was much less bothersome. I didn't have a chance to play with any noise filters, so I'm not 100 percent how much I was seeing was adjustment-related, but the difference between the pictures was very significant (also, all the other 50's in the store had this same problem from the poor source, with the 1130HD being the next smoothest from the FHD1, and the Panny next in line.)

On good material. like HD-DVD (I convinced a sales guy to hook up an HD-XA1 via HDMI in place of the Samsung Blu-Ray it was being demoed with), the thing threw off simply the best HD picture I've ever seen (I've had HD via front projector since 2000, and via PDP for about 2 years). Even the Universal logo on the Serenity HD DVD simply made my jaw drop (I've seen this logo and movie several times on other PDPs already). There were no artifacts I could see on the main subjects in every seen--very smooth yet sharp as hell. Serenity has a fair amount of mosquito noise/"sparklies" in the background, especially in desert scenes--it was still there, but greatly reduced. I'm betting when I have a chance to dial in the noise filters and get it ISF calibrated, the difference will be even greater in favor of the FHD1. By the way, Blu-Ray looked decent as well, although noticeably softer (on Ultraviolet, anyway).

I don't know if one of the BB's (the one with the 1130HD and 600U lined up next to the FHD1) happened to have the the FHD1 dialed in while the other two were not, but the color rendition on the FHD1 was simply truer, more lifelike (even though I think the color level was set lower), and more even on that set than the other two. Again, not clear how much of this was the settings on each set, or just inherent benefits of the 1080P panel right out of the box.

I sit 6-7 feet away from my current 42" HP (PL4245N) PDP, and had come to the conclusion that a 50" would still work in that space, although I had no immediate plans to get one. I completely agree with the sentiment that if you're much more than about 8 feet away, either don't spend the extra money on a 1080P (get the 50" 600U, is all I have to say on that point), or wait for the 60" and 65" 1080P's to come out, at probably the same retail price point. Those will be simply too big for my space.

I really wasn't in the market to upgrade right now, but after spending a whole day looking at a bunch of FHD1's and a bunch of the other current bests of the best, and after BB/Magnolia made an offer I couldn't refuse, I bit the bullet. They will work with you on these sets if you push a bit.

Picking it up in a few days, and will break my silence once again to provide additional thoughts once it's hanging on the wall.
Well said and I agree with everything you saw. My only problem with the set was how it handled SD or low quality HD, and the poor black levels. I watched the PGA and the PQ was either very good or quite poor. I think this Ferrari was only made for perfect roads....when it hits a rough stretch it starts to loose performance. And since I will be watching other programming other than HD-DVD I had a problem with it.
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post #186 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaux
Well said and I agree with everything you saw. My only problem with the set was how it handled SD or low quality HD, and the poor black levels. I watched the PGA and the PQ was either very good or quite poor. I think this Ferrari was only made for perfect roads....when it hits a rough stretch it starts to loose performance. And since I will be watching other programming other than HD-DVD I had a problem with it.
Thanks for your response here.

I only saw SD very briefly at one store (digital), but I watch 99% of my standard def on digital channels through Comcast, and thought it looked ok--about the same as my current 42" set. I thought it handled poor quality HD, at least that which I was able to catch at the various BB's, substantially better than the sets around it. The one thing I did not get to check was analog SD. I watch so little of it that I'm not terribly concerned either way, but I will report on it when I get the set.

I suspect that it may be that we are comparing two different animals, and that rear projection SXRD (with which I have no experience) simply does a better job with SD and with poor HD materials compared to plasmas. Given the space limitations for this setup, the Qualia isn't an option for me, so I'm relegated to comparing the FHD1 to other higher end plasmas.

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post #187 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Lederman
Thanks for your response here.

I only saw SD very briefly at one store (digital), but I watch 99% of my standard def on digital channels through Comcast, and thought it looked ok--about the same as my current 42" set. I thought it handled poor quality HD, at least that which I was able to catch at the various BB's, substantially better than the sets around it. The one thing I did not get to check was analog SD. I watch so little of it that I'm not terribly concerned either way, but I will report on it when I get the set.

I suspect that it may be that we are comparing two different animals, and that rear projection SXRD (with which I have no experience) simply does a better job with SD and with poor HD materials compared to plasmas. Given the space limitations for this setup, the Qualia isn't an option for me, so I'm relegated to comparing FHD1 to other higher end plasmas.
thats why I always check Two of more different locations, I hit two tweeter stores on the fdh1 and checked it out with a sammy player...on one store I went though the entire demo disk on the second one ...no doubt...this is the king...when blue ray and even HD hits the masses this is the set to have or one like it...1080p is the man....but the issue is quality...do you want to have set capable of giving you the best....well if you spend 3k or up the answer should be yes....should you pay a preimum for elite or xbr the answer is yes....maybe 1080p is not such a big issue in august 2006 but I assure you in august of 2007 you will regret buying ANYTING that is not capable....just look at the great titles which will be released on both formats...and this is just the begining...fox which now is in control of the mgm library which someone paid a couple of billions dollars for will be releasing many titles of those guys are not going to get there money back..right now the fdh1 is the KING when you by a product you look FOWARD especially on a major purchase of this nature
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post #188 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lederman
My own experience, in BB after BB, viewing both "good" HD source material and poor HD source material, is that this panel excels in just about every category, except blacks, where I think the 600U edges it out. In particular, from about 6-7 feet, on every type of HD material I saw, the FHD1 was noticeably smoother. The worse the material got, the more noticeable this difference got IMHO. On one HD satellite feed where I saw the FHD1, 1130HD, and 600U all lined up in a row from 6 feet away, the main subjects of the shots were so pixel edge enhanced (noise "hash") on the slightest movements, that it bordered on unwatchable. The FHD1, while not delivering a perfect picture on this poor material, had much less noise, and consequently it was much less bothersome. I didn't have a chance to play with any noise filters, so I'm not 100 percent how much I was seeing was adjustment-related, but the difference between the pictures was very significant (also, all the other 50's in the store had this same problem from the poor source, with the 1130HD being the next smoothest from the FHD1, and the Panny next in line.)

I don't know if one of the BB's (the one with the 1130HD and 600U lined up next to the FHD1) happened to have the the FHD1 dialed in while the other two were not, but the color rendition on the FHD1 was simply truer, more lifelike (even though I think the color level was set lower), and more even on that set than the other two. Again, not clear how much of this was the settings on each set, or just inherent benefits of the 1080P panel right out of the box.
It's interesting to see how these displays are setup differently in different regions. In my area the FH1 simply fails to impress. This was not just my impression, but everyone that watched it during the time I had seen it at the different locations....including a Magnolia dept. mgr. In fact there was no question that the 1130's color was far better, which lead me to believe that either the 1130 out-of-box calibration is far better than the FH1's or the 1130 was calibrated and the FH1 was not. But this same scenario repeated at three different BBs!

Over the weekend I got to see the FH1 at a high-end retailer, hooked up to Blu-Ray, and the FH1 had obviously been dialed-in better than the BB stores. But still, I left unimpressed and still found the pictures on both the Fujitsus and the non-1080p Pioneers to be more impressive. I've never been someone that's been swayed by #s, but rather by the actual video 'experience' and thus far the FH1 hasn't provided that for me. Again, there was no comparison in black levels between the Fujitsus and the 1080p Pioneer. This was not what I'd call a close contest. The newest generation of non-1080p Pioneers did, IMO, greatly reduce the gap between the black levels on these units and the best-in-class Panasonic/Fujitsu panels. This is what makes the non-1080p Pioneers look so good to me. Could it still be a setup issue on the FH1? Possibly, but after seeing four different setups I'm beginning to wonder.

I'd like to move up in size from my 50" Fujitsu plasma to a 65" 1080p plasma, so I'm hoping for a good showing from the Panasonic. However, since I've yet to be impressed with a 1080p panel (except for the Qualia), I'm becoming a bit aprehensive about the Panny.
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post #189 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 12:01 PM
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well I think the real test would be a true 1080p dvd player hooked up to both the pany and fhd1 so you should wait till that time in oct...however the fdh1 that I saw blew everything else away in the room.
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post #190 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
It's interesting to see how these displays are setup differently in different regions. In my area the FH1 simply fails to impress. This was not just my impression, but everyone that watched it during the time I had seen it at the different locations....including a Magnolia dept. mgr. In fact there was no question that the 1130's color was far better, which lead me to believe that either the 1130 out-of-box calibration is far better than the FH1's or the 1130 was calibrated and the FH1 was not. But this same scenario repeated at three different BBs!

Over the weekend I got to see the FH1 at a high-end retailer, hooked up to Blu-Ray, and the FH1 had obviously been dialed-in better than the BB stores. But still, I left unimpressed and still found the pictures on both the Fujitsus and the non-1080p Pioneers to be more impressive. I've never been someone that's been swayed by #s, but rather by the actual video 'experience' and thus far the FH1 hasn't provided that for me. Again, there was no comparison in black levels between the Fujitsus and the 1080p Pioneer. This was not what I'd call a close contest. The newest generation of non-1080p Pioneers did, IMO, greatly reduce the gap between the black levels on these units and the best-in-class Panasonic/Fujitsu panels. This is what makes the non-1080p Pioneers look so good to me. Could it still be a setup issue on the FH1? Possibly, but after seeing four different setups I'm beginning to wonder.

I'd like to move up in size from my 50" Fujitsu plasma to a 65" 1080p plasma, so I'm hoping for a good showing from the Panasonic. However, since I've yet to be impressed with a 1080p panel (except for the Qualia), I'm becoming a bit aprehensive about the Panny.
Here's what makes me nervous about the Panny "65. This under the "70 non Qualia rumor mill----
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=11&pp=30



"H60Ace
Lord of the Skies


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Posts: 53 You are probably looking at 8000-9000 dollars for the Panny Plaz, and believe me, it doesn't look nearly as nice as the SXRD. The Matsushita plasma panel has a fairly poor form fill factor, bringing about a pretty bad case of SDE from inside of 10 ft.


EEEKS....If he lives in Japan he has probably seen it.
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post #191 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bladerunner7
thats why I always check Two of more different locations, I hit two tweeter stores on the fdh1 and checked it out with a sammy player...on one store I went though the entire demo disk on the second one ...no doubt...this is the king...when blue ray and even HD hits the masses this is the set to have or one like it...1080p is the man....but the issue is quality...do you want to have set capable of giving you the best....well if you spend 3k or up the answer should be yes....should you pay a preimum for elite or xbr the answer is yes....maybe 1080p is not such a big issue in august 2006 but I assure you in august of 2007 you will regret buying ANYTING that is not capable....just look at the great titles which will be released on both formats...and this is just the begining...fox which now is in control of the mgm library which someone paid a couple of billions dollars for will be releasing many titles of those guys are not going to get there money back..right now the fdh1 is the KING when you by a product you look FOWARD especially on a major purchase of this nature
Yup....1080p will be the King...mostly because it is the new buzz word from set makers, and marketing. If enough people buy it (and I would) then there is money to made for content providers. They will promo 1080p next summer. If you build it...they will come.
However I work for a network (in Wash DC) and shoot HD almost every day and I could not tell you by eye what is 1080i or 1080p. To be honest I have trouble telling 720p from 1080i (ABC vs. CBS).
But I do know the real factor is how it is shot and with what. Most if not all HD movie channels and most shows are shot on 35mm film 16x9. The high budget films are shot in 70mm film and they look close to HD. Now on Discovery and HDnet and a few others are shot with an HD cameras...(50k for camera 18k for lens). Almost all film makers have their equipment in film camera's and edit systems, often they will shoot in film, transfer to tape to edit in NLE and then transfer back to film...and want the 'film look'. They look down on us Video people...we are not 'true' artists.
So much of 1080p will depend on the source and how good it is transferred.
I have seem some bad stuff and some excellent stuff on my HD-DVD. I think a lot of it has to do with quality control.
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post #192 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dreaux
Yup....1080p will be the King...mostly because it is the new buzz word from set makers, and marketing. If enough people buy it (and I would) then there is money to made for content providers. They will promo 1080p next summer. If you build it...they will come.
However I work for a network (in Wash DC) and shoot HD almost every day and I could not tell you by eye what is 1080i or 1080p. To be honest I have trouble telling 720p from 1080i (ABC vs. CBS).
But I do know the real factor is how it is shot and with what. Most if not all HD movie channels and most shows are shot on 35mm film 16x9. The high budget films are shot in 70mm film and they look close to HD. Now on Discovery and HDnet and a few others are shot with an HD cameras...(50k for camera 18k for lens). Almost all film makers have their equipment in film camera's and edit systems, often they will shoot in film, transfer to tape to edit in NLE and then transfer back to film...and want the 'film look'. They look down on us Video people...we are not 'true' artists.
So much of 1080p will depend on the source and how good it is transferred.
I have seem some bad stuff and some excellent stuff on my HD-DVD. I think a lot of it has to do with quality control.
This is a very good post, and although I don't have the benefit of your experience in the industry, it makes perfect sense to me. The HD quality varies so much program to program, not to mention channel to channel, that it has to be all about the source for the particular shot that we're looking at.

With NTSC it probably didn't matter if they were using high quality cameras, lenses, editing, transfers, etc, or 20 year-old technology. It pretty much all looked the same. Not any more. With HD not only do we get the good and the bad (as we always have), now we can immediately tell the difference.

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post #193 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 05:02 PM
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Congrats on your purchase Jeff.

I wasn't even considering plasma, as I've been a holdout for SED. I love my 36" XBR CRT.

Anyways, I've pretty much made up my mind but decided on going with the 1140HD that is coming out in September. I saw the FHD1 at Magnolia and it was stunning, but the distance was from around 4 to 6 feet away.

My actual viewing distance will be about 8'-10' feet away. Then looking at the spec sheets for the 1140, the added network connectivity feature which will allow me to stream HD from my HTPC was what convinced me to go that way. And that it will take 1080p input.

So since I wont be close enough to visually see 1080p, the added network connectivity, ability to take a 1080p input, and a savings in my case of about $2500 all for the 50", seemed to work best for me. I was even considering the 46" XBR2 LCD, but for only $500 more, I was able to get the 1140HD.

I hope I will be happy, because I really have been holding out because of the picture quality my CRT has given me for the last 4 years and just haven't enjoyed anything else.

DAMN YOU SED!!!!
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post #194 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by russwong
Congrats on your purchase Jeff.

I wasn't even considering plasma, as I've been a holdout for SED. I love my 36" XBR CRT.

Anyways, I've pretty much made up my mind but decided on going with the 1140HD that is coming out in September. I saw the FHD1 at Magnolia and it was stunning, but the distance was from around 4 to 6 feet away.

My actual viewing distance will be about 8'-10' feet away. Then looking at the spec sheets for the 1140, the added network connectivity feature which will allow me to stream HD from my HTPC was what convinced me to go that way. And that it will take 1080p input.

So since I wont be close enough to visually see 1080p, the added network connectivity, ability to take a 1080p input, and a savings in my case of about $2500 all for the 50", seemed to work best for me. I was even considering the 46" XBR2 LCD, but for only $500 more, I was able to get the 1140HD.

I hope I will be happy, because I really have been holding out because of the picture quality my CRT has given me for the last 4 years and just haven't enjoyed anything else.

DAMN YOU SED!!!!
Russ, SED aside, it sounds like you've made a great choice. I gotta tell you (as I've told some folks who PM'd me), although I liked the 600U marginally better than the 1130HD, my wife would have taken the 1130HD if she couldn't have the FHD1, for reasons including the case (which she just liked a whole lot better) and the smoothness of the Elite line. I would have opted for the pop/marginally better blacks of the 600U.

I think the 1140HD with the 7th generation panel is going to look great, particularly if they make any improvements at all to the 1130's picture (which really is nice) in the process. At your viewing distance, it will be difficult, IMHO, to tell the difference between the FHD1 and 1140HD, if the 1130 is any indication. Not to mention the network connectivity feature.

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post #195 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 05:46 PM
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Well I did it again...I went to the third tweeter and spent time with an excellent salesman we compared the fdh1 to 40inch Xbr2...the 50 inch fdh1 kicked the sony's ass. Especially on the cable feed. This is the first time I have seen hd-dvd player hooked up to fdh1...wow looked great on the demo disk, van helsing and charile looked great on it. I looked around at 50 tvs including 1080p rear proection with blue ray hookup....I asked the saleman Why is this set so much better than the rest...its more 3d...his response is this tv is "KING OF THE HILL"
I just realized that if the 40 inch does not look as good as the 50 inc no way will the 52 be any better...this is the set...it like nothing I have EVER seen with high def material....IThe salesman also said it comes with speakers....I dont know if that is true or not any body out there know....the issue now is should I get an extended warranty :cool:
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post #196 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 05:57 PM
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"the issue now is should I get an extended warranty"

Blade, that's a really personal decision, IMO.

I didn't opt for it on a purely economic basis. The manufacturer's warranty is two years, and by that time I figure this set will be worth 25% of what I paid for it, if that. Hedging against the risk of it breaking in years 3 and 4 just isn't worth $600 up front to me. By the time the extended warranty nears the end, it's probably not worth fixing, just based on the logistics of getting it off the wall and rehanging it once they fix it.

On the other hand, if it helps you sleep at night early on in your ownership, I can see doing it. This set is a commitment, to be sure, and the peace of mind alone may be worth it.

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post #197 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dreaux
Here's what makes me nervous about the Panny "65. This under the "70 non Qualia rumor mill----
Dreaux, I don't think he's talking about the 1080p 65" Panny plasma. There's no reason why the 1080p would have a 'poor' fill factor being a full rez display. I'm betting he's talking about the non-1080p display. Those that saw it at CES raved about it and many thought it was 'best in show'. But we shall see before too long.
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post #198 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dreaux
Yup....1080p will be the King...mostly because it is the new buzz word from set makers, and marketing. If enough people buy it (and I would) then there is money to made for content providers. They will promo 1080p next summer. If you build it...they will come.

Dreaux, the problem is that nobody has the bandwidth to transmit 1080p. They are having enough problems with 1080i and bandwidth issues. The 'pipes' of today are simply way too narrow to start transmitting 1080p content. For quite some time that will be restricted to HD DVD/Blu-Ray.
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post #199 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
Dreaux, I don't think he's talking about the 1080p 65" Panny plasma. There's no reason why the 1080p would have a 'poor' fill factor being a full rez display. I'm betting he's talking about the non-1080p display. Those that saw it at CES raved about it and many thought it was 'best in show'. But we shall see before too long.
I got the impression he was..if you look at the post just before it. I hope you are right, I to would like to see the Panny 65 1080p and after all it is just one guy's take.


"So it sounds like there's no hope that the production version of the 70" XBR2 will improve in any significant way on the version seen at HE 2006? I was somewhat encouraged by Shane Buettner's positive "short take" from June on the 70XBR2 at the Ultimate AV website. But I'm probably getting my hopes up unrealistically, based on what you've said about the XBR2.

So is that 65" 1080p Panny plasma going to cost a lot more than the 70XBR2?


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Posts: 53 You are probably looking at 8000-9000 dollars for the Panny Plaz, and believe me, it doesn't look nearly as nice as the SXRD. The Matsushita plasma panel has a fairly poor form fill factor, bringing about a pretty bad case of SDE from inside of 10 ft.
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post #200 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 06:39 PM
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I thought the 65" 1080p Panny was going to go for about $10,000. I could be wrong.
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How do you get a bad case of fill factor wqhen you have more pixels? Are they incredibly small with relatively large gaps betwenn them?

Maybe it's just hard to make a REAL 1080p display--maybe that's why the Industry tried to sell 1080i as long as it did.
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post #202 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
Dreaux, the problem is that nobody has the bandwidth to transmit 1080p. They are having enough problems with 1080i and bandwidth issues. The 'pipes' of today are simply way too narrow to start transmitting 1080p content. For quite some time that will be restricted to HD DVD/Blu-Ray.
Perhaps but believe it or not Analog takes up more bandwidth than digital.
And with fiber, bandwidth is not an issue but then Sat. or cable will have to compress more...not good. I know where I work when we switched from analog to digital we were able to send out 7 signals instead of one (and sold one to Nextel) Maybe they will improve on Mpeg4. But look at off air HD...its great....no compression. PBS is a great example around here.
What they may do is upconvert at the origin or upscale much like a DVD is sending 480i and your progessive scan digital tv upscales to 480p. And that does make a difference.
They will play with the wording so it appears they are sending 1080p, but I can tell you I have heard of no camera that can shoot 1080p, at least not yet. So I am guessing they will upscale 1080i to 1080p which is what your set already does on the new sets out there. Even it is says it takes 1080p in, it might or is still upconverting? So does blu-ray really send out 1080p? They say it does but I have to ask...what is the source...was that DVD film transfer really done in 1080p? Nope ...because there are no 1080p cameras and the PQ is only as good as it source and thats under the best circumstances.
Or is the blu-ray sometimes upscaling 1080i to 1080p which your set can already do. I have a feeling it will be upconverting for a couple more years, maybe longer but they will tell you it sending out 1080p. It is way too expensive to make a camera that can do 1080p, plus it would be a pain to edit with....way too much data. So for the next few years they will dress it up.
I am not saying not to get a 1080p anything (because I want it too, if I am going to buy now, which I am). I am just saying be leary of what they are saying and what they are really doing. The picture is only as good as its source, no matter what they may say. But I DO believe they will get a whole lot better at xfering film to HD DVD"s and they will be much better on both blu-ray and HD-DVD. This is still quite new for the studio/dvd techs and they are stlill learning on the job but it think they will get it down as more titles come out.
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post #203 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
I thought the 65" 1080p Panny was going to go for about $10,000. I could be wrong.
I think that is Msrp. One of the forum sponsors (in Ohio) is selling for it for 7800.00.
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post #204 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 07:27 PM
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Won't the Pioneer 50-inch HAVE to drop once Panasonic scomes out with a cheaper 65-inch?

What year do you think we'll see a Vizio 1080p plasma and what will be its opening MSRP?
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post #205 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood
Won't the Pioneer 50-inch HAVE to drop once Panasonic scomes out with a cheaper 65-inch?

What year do you think we'll see a Vizio 1080p plasma and what will be its opening MSRP?
well this is an elite product and has the best chance of holding its value especially if PQ is better, I looked into vizio and saw one on sale for 1700.....I checked into this unbeliveable price...here is the lesson...look at the web site....YOU have to mail the tv to them and then they can USE replacement parts that are not even NEW...you get what you pay for stick with elite or a top name brand
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post #206 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
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This is a very good post, and although I don't have the benefit of your experience in the industry, it makes perfect sense to me. The HD quality varies so much program to program, not to mention channel to channel, that it has to be all about the source for the particular shot that we're looking at.

With NTSC it probably didn't matter if they were using high quality cameras, lenses, editing, transfers, etc, or 20 year-old technology. It pretty much all looked the same. Not any more. With HD not only do we get the good and the bad (as we always have), now we can immediately tell the difference.
I think you nailed it with fewer words than it took me.
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post #207 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 08:21 PM
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Jeff if you have a ditigal camera could you take some pictures of your set up and what cables etc you are using thanks
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post #208 of 2349 Old 08-21-2006, 10:07 PM
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But I do know the real factor is how it is shot and with what. Most if not all HD movie channels and most shows are shot on 35mm film 16x9. The high budget films are shot in 70mm film and they look close to HD.
dreaux,... Close to HD?? 35 or 70mm is Higher resolution than 1080P HD.

When shot on film they transfer/author it to BluRay, HD DVD, SD DVD and tv by downconvert/downscale/compress it.

The BluRay and HD DVD movies out so far have all been transferred/authored in 1080P. The Samsung player outputs in 720P/1080i/1080P and the Toshiba/RCA HD DVD players output in 720P/1080i.

And the off the air/over the air local stations digital/HD broadcast are compressed, whether it is 480i 480p, 720p or 1080i, (no stations output in 1080P and probably will not for many years), maybe not as much as sat or cable but off the air/over the air broadcast transmissions are definetly compressed.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #209 of 2349 Old 08-22-2006, 12:26 AM
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Scanners for 35 mm diapositives is 5400 dpi so you are talking of 7440 X 4960 pixels for 35 X 24mm: 18 times more than 1920 X 1080.
They're digitizing 70.41mm x 52.63mm IMAX frames at 11,753 x 8,772 @ 12 bits / pixel.
I don't know if they can go higher than that -- i.e. I think that's as good as the current digitizers are today. Estimates for IMAX film seem to bounce between 30 megapixels and 100megapixels.

Going the other way, when they converted Hubble images to IMAX they deemed 5616 x 4096 pixels as 'an acceptable minimum'.

If you blow up a 1920 pixel wide image to fit a 80 foot screen, a projected pixel would be .5 inches wide. This is noteworthy because Star Wars Episode III (Sith) was shot on a Sony HDW950 camera which records at 1920x1080-pixels at 24p (2 megapixels resolution, ignoring colour depth, per frame).

The Phantom65 has 4K (4096 X 2440) resolution and up to 125 frames-per-second recording speed (10 megapixels).

An amateur built the Ark. Titanic was built by professionals. Of course Noah took a little advice.
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post #210 of 2349 Old 08-22-2006, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1
dreaux,... Close to HD?? 35 or 70mm is Higher resolution than 1080P HD.

When shot on film they transfer/author it to BluRay, HD DVD, SD DVD and tv by downconvert/downscale/compress it.

The BluRay and HD DVD movies out so far have all been transferred/authored in 1080P. The Samsung player outputs in 720P/1080i/1080P and the Toshiba/RCA HD DVD players output in 720P/1080i.

And the off the air/over the air local stations digital/HD broadcast are compressed, whether it is 480i 480p, 720p or 1080i, (no stations output in 1080P and probably will not for many years), maybe not as much as sat or cable but off the air/over the air broadcast transmissions are definetly compressed.
You are right and I don't think I expressed well what I was trying to say. I was meaning what we are seeing now at home. But you are right but the process is complicated.

Old movies (and most new movies) were shot on film, which is neither SD nor HD. It's the process of recording it to digital video that puts it in HD.

Nearly all movies are shot on film and most film is effectively higher resolution than HD (I think most moves from film are scanned at something like 4,000-5,000 lines for digital effects editing, while the highest HD standard currently is 1080 lines).

35/70mm film exceeds HD frame resolution, but fails to reach HD frame rate.
The reason 24fps is one of the standard HD frame rates is simply an easy way to accommodate 35mm film - its a standard for playing a different format via an HD system, not an indicator of HD quality

For an example, the scene in The Matrix where neo is dangling from the helicopter flying over the city. If you stop looking at Neo and try to make out the buildings rushing by behind him, your eyes bug out - the building are in focus, but there is no detail to be made out from them, even though the frame resolution is massive (far higher than HD).

Video (60 fields per second) feels much more "real" than film (24 frames per second). In addition, the color response of HD video cameras is substantially different than film, resulting in higher contrast and more "punchiness". So while your HD movies will be much more detailed, they will not have the same "more real than reality" feel of HD video. HD is viewed on a screen much, much smaller than in a theatre, and thus presented a much sharper image

It is my understanding that off-air broadcasts are not compressed because there are no bandwidth constraints.
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