I burnt my Pioneer plasma! Already?? - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > I burnt my Pioneer plasma! Already??
rajdude's Avatar rajdude 07:14 AM 08-07-2006
Well....I know well enough
  1. not to pause a pic on the plasma for a long time...
  2. Keep the image maximized
  3. keep the contrast brightness down
  4. etc etc

But to my surprise, yesterday I saw that my Pioneer PIO 4312 plasma has bars at the top and bottom. :eek: I can only see the burn on a all black screen, like going to an input which has nothing connected. So the plasma’s center has the burn in (because that is where all the DVDs play)

How did that happen?
Well I can only guess that it because of watching widescreen (letterboxed 2.40:1 or whatever you may want to call them) movies which do not fill up the whole screen.

I always used to keep my brightness/contrast to the factory setting... (keep it a zero.) I was thinking of a calibration but never thought about turning down the contrast / brightness until I got around to calibrating. I did do the basic AVIA/DVE stuff. I had to turn down the color as it was too hot.

So anyway, this is a surprise to me. I always thought that keeping the controls at the factory setting should not cause a burn.

The good thing is that with a full screen image, the burn in cannot be seen. :o

Anyone else has encountered this issue?
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PHoliday's Avatar PHoliday 07:27 AM 08-07-2006
Hope that it is just image retention and it will go away.

I'll answer this, not because I am the expert, but because people around here don't like to answer burn-in questions that aren't in the "Master Burn-in Thread"

I also have a Pio plasma (Elite PRO1130), and so far I will only play things in full screen (For the first 400-500 hours). Supposedly, Pioneer has fixed their burn-in issues, and they claim that the only thing that their plasma screens will suffer from is Image Retention. Try getting the break-in dvd off of the master burn-in thread and run it for a day or two.

The big reason I am so sceptical still, is that I have read on this site that people have not been able to get the IR to go away over time. I have only heard this horror story from Pioneer owners, and ever other plasma owner I see post on this site (newer model plasmas) shoots down the idea of burn-in and says that the only things anyone has is IR. I am tempted to believe this, but like I said, I have heard Pioneer owners say they cannot get the IR to go away. Sounds like burn-in to me.

My advice would be to try to break-in dvd, then run your tv on some mode that covers the full screen for the next few hundred hours. Then, after that, the tv "should" be less prone to IR and burn-in. Then, of course, enjoy, not allowing your tv to dictate your viewing, whilst not abusing, yada yada yada.

On a side note, In a previous thread I never really got my question answered: "Are Pioneers really worse than other plasmas for burn in?" Anyone? Would any Pio owners like to chime in with their experiences with IR and Burn-in?

Edit: I haven't experiened the same problem as you, but mainly because I have been an over-protective father to my plasma. I guess I am hoping for the first flaw to come soon so that I can stop caring about it being perfect.

-J
optivity's Avatar optivity 07:35 AM 08-07-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Well....I know well enough
  1. not to pause a pic on the plasma for a long time...
  2. Keep the image maximized
  3. keep the contrast brightness down
  4. etc etc

But to my surprise, yesterday I saw that my Pioneer PIO 4312 plasma has bars at the top and bottom. :eek: I can only see the burn on a all black screen, like going to an input which has nothing connected. So the plasma’s center has the burn in (because that is where all the DVDs play)

How did that happen?
Well I can only guess that it because of watching widescreen (letterboxed 2.40:1 or whatever you may want to call them) movies which do not fill up the whole screen.

I always used to keep my brightness/contrast to the factory setting... (keep it a zero.) I was thinking of a calibration but never thought about turning down the contrast / brightness until I got around to calibrating. I did do the basic AVIA/DVE stuff. I had to turn down the color as it was too hot.

So anyway, this is a surprise to me. I always thought that keeping the controls at the factory setting should not cause a burn.

The good thing is that with a full screen image, the burn in cannot be seen. :o

Anyone else has encountered this issue?
You did not say how many hours you have on your panel, but Panasonic recommends not to display black bars during the first 100 hours of operation and for no more than 15% of viewing during the next 900, after 1000 hours the risk of burn in is greatly reduced. For the time being try to display only full-screen content and check periodically to see if the evidence of uneven phosphor wear is reduced.
rajdude's Avatar rajdude 08:07 AM 08-07-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
You did not say how many hours you have on your panel, but Panasonic recommends not to display black bars during the first 100 hours of operation and for no more than 15% of viewing during the next 900, after 1000 hours the risk of burn in is greatly reduced. For the time being try to display only full-screen content and check periodically to see if the evidence of uneven phosphor wear is reduced.

I got this thing used...so I do not know how many hrs...UNLESS this has some sort of counter. I do not see something like that in the menu. I think that shoud be in the service menu...right ?

But I am 100% sure that the burn -in was not there when I got it.

Surely I will keep everything zoomed to full screen now, but it is going to be really hard to lose the sides of DVDs.
rajdude's Avatar rajdude 08:16 AM 08-07-2006
First,
I thought that burn-in thread was only for those people who want to break-in their new plasmas....you know.....burn in as in like getting the plasma ready for regular use.

But if you insist...I will post the same there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PHoliday
Hope that it is just image retention and it will go away.

I'll answer this, not because I am the expert, but because people around here don't like to answer burn-in questions that aren't in the "Master Burn-in Thread"

I also have a Pio plasma (Elite PRO1130), and so far I will only play things in full screen (For the first 400-500 hours). Supposedly, Pioneer has fixed their burn-in issues, and they claim that the only thing that their plasma screens will suffer from is Image Retention. Try getting the break-in dvd off of the master burn-in thread and run it for a day or two.

The big reason I am so sceptical still, is that I have read on this site that people have not been able to get the IR to go away over time. I have only heard this horror story from Pioneer owners, and ever other plasma owner I see post on this site (newer model plasmas) shoots down the idea of burn-in and says that the only things anyone has is IR. I am tempted to believe this, but like I said, I have heard Pioneer owners say they cannot get the IR to go away. Sounds like burn-in to me.

My advice would be to try to break-in dvd, then run your tv on some mode that covers the full screen for the next few hundred hours. Then, after that, the tv "should" be less prone to IR and burn-in. Then, of course, enjoy, not allowing your tv to dictate your viewing, whilst not abusing, yada yada yada.
IMHO that "image retention" theory is total BS when it comes to plasmas. That applies to LCD displays.

But of course, I may be mis-informed.


Quote:
On a side note, In a previous thread I never really got my question answered: "Are Pioneers really worse than other plasmas for burn in?" Anyone? Would any Pio owners like to chime in with their experiences with IR and Burn-in?

Edit: I haven't experiened the same problem as you, but mainly because I have been an over-protective father to my plasma. I guess I am hoping for the first flaw to come soon so that I can stop caring about it being perfect.

-J
Well, I am not a regular in this section of AVS, so I never saw that thread.
PHoliday's Avatar PHoliday 08:33 AM 08-07-2006
The IR problem is definitely an issue with plasmas. I don't have the link, but there is a pioneer funded (and I'm sure completely unbiased) study that shows that Burn-in is not an issue and what most people experience is extended IR.

Trust me, I'm not recommending the Burn-in thread. I am not happy with what I find there, since I am looking for Burn-in issues with Pioneer brand plasmas. I am looking for help with one brand, and I can't stand when I get 3000 posts in reply to "is my pio experiencing burn-in" that all say "no, panasonic/samsung/etc does not experience burn-in"

I would, however, recommend the break-in dvd in any case (even on older plasmas) just to try to get rid of the bars. In general, if it is IR, it will eventually go away with looping different colors on the full screen. The posts I have seen indicate that the pioneer have extended IR, and many people think their plasmas burn-in, even though eventually it goes away. proving to be IR.

Let me know what you end up doing, I'd be much more confident moving to video games and 2.35:1 on my plasma if I knew the bars could be erased. I'd love to hear about a Pioneer burn-in experience that was happily resolved.

Good luck

-J
optivity's Avatar optivity 08:59 AM 08-07-2006
All PDPs use similar phosphor (60,000 hours) technology. There are some minor differences regarding burn in prevention techniques. Some links of interest:

Plasma ‘burn in’ proves to be temporary problem, says IDC white paper

Plasma Facts and Myths Panasonic Presents Advice From the Video Purist Perspective

Screen Burn Removal DVD
Bud-man's Avatar Bud-man 09:08 AM 08-07-2006
I noticed the other day on my panny, there was some ghosting like a big weird picture of something like a rooster and his head feathers, also saw the logo "HD-DVD" from my tosh dvd player, this was on HDMI input and player was off.
Once the screen came on i couldnt see a thing anyway, no worries mate i got the costco guarantee
dark1x's Avatar dark1x 09:08 AM 08-07-2006
I've noticed some IR on my new Pioneer 4270, actually.

I didn't think it was a problem at all, but bright blue and yellow bars cause minor IR (black bars and the like do not, however). Thankfully, even after many hours of displaying the same colored bar, the IR disappears completely in less than 5 minutes with another source. My previous Toshiba really never saw ANY IR with the same amount of usage, though, so it's looking like the Pioneer is a bit more sensitive (though it really doesn't last, so it isn't a huge deal). Just yesterday, my buddy and I played a game for about 4 hours with a very bright blue bar on screen and this was the first time I noticed any IR (only noticed it on a bright white screen). I was concerned about this, though, and immediately switched to something different...but after less than 5 minutes, it was completely gone (thankfully).

I've had static images on screen for longer than 4 hours, though, so it really seems to be related to the color and intensity of the on screen object.
PHoliday's Avatar PHoliday 09:44 AM 08-07-2006
Thank you dark1x, that is the first person I have talked to who has made me feel a little more comfortable.

If anyone else is able to prove that their IR/Burn-in goes away on their Pioneer, I would love to hear about it.
RandyWalters's Avatar RandyWalters 11:40 AM 08-07-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHoliday
Thank you dark1x, that is the first person I have talked to who has made me feel a little more comfortable.

If anyone else is able to prove that their IR/Burn-in goes away on their Pioneer, I would love to hear about it.
AFAIK, burn-in does not go away - it's the permanent where IR is temporary. If you have burn-in it's probably too late, but i think it takes a long time to get burn in where IR happens quickly and goes away soon.

When i first got my Panasonic plasma i got severe temporary IR for the first few weeks during break-in (mostly Fox and Speed logos) but once the panel had a few hundred hours on it those same logos no longer cause IR.
gwsat's Avatar gwsat 12:27 PM 08-07-2006
I don't have a dog in the fight over whether images retained by a plasma are temporary or permanent because I bought an LCD (a 32 inch Sony XBR) instead of a plasma. Make of that what you will.
dark1x's Avatar dark1x 12:36 PM 08-07-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat
I don't have a dog in the fight over whether images retained by a plasma are temporary or permanent because I bought an LCD (a 32 inch Sony XBR) instead of a plasma. Make of that what you will.
Hmm, you aren't picky when it comes to displays then? Is that about right?
PHoliday's Avatar PHoliday 12:51 PM 08-07-2006
Yup, Randy, I know burn-in does not go away. I was typing fast and didn't re-read how my words came out.

When I spoke about IR/Burn-in going away, I was more or less expressing my dissatisfaction with the reports coming back about burn-in. If pio/pani say that there is no more burn-in on their plasmas, and if they aren't completely lying for sales, then the large majority of people complaining about burn-in actually are experienceing severe IR. What bothers me is that I have seen many people complain about the burn-in on their pio, but then I never hear them come back here and say if it went away. I have a strong feeling that a lot of people see their "burn-in" go away over time, proving to have only been IR.

I would love to see some of the people, who have claimed to have experienced burn-in, come back here after their heads. I really wonder how often they reports actually end up being Burn-in.

Either the Pio/Pani guys are lying their butts off, or your general consumer is completely uninformed. I would just hope that the general person on this site knows the difference before posting their horror stories

-J
gwsat's Avatar gwsat 12:58 PM 08-07-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x
Hmm, you aren't picky when it comes to displays then? Is that about right?
A little defensive about our choice of technology aren't we? :)

More seriously, I usually prefer to watch TV in a normally lighted viewing room. For those of us who prefer such an environment, LCDs seemed to be the way to go. I recognize that in a very dark viewing environment the PQ of a plasma display may be marginally better than that of an LCD. Nevertheless, the potential problem of burn in coupled with plasmas' higher prices and the fact that I seldom watch TV in the dark, caused me to eliminate plasmas from my consideration.
dark1x's Avatar dark1x 01:02 PM 08-07-2006
I believe that today's plasmas are difficult to burn-in.

That test conducted in 2005 displayed a static image on screen for 48 hours, I believe, and the IR disappeared completely after running a different image for 24 hours. I'd say that 48 hours is WAY beyond what any normal person would do. If the 2005 models were able to withstand 48 hours, I'd imagine 2006 plasmas are as good or better.

In general, only very specific colors leave any traces of IR on my Pioneer. Things such as black bars or gradients tend not to leave anything at all (even after extended viewing - 6+ hours). Most of the IR I've seen is related only to extremely bright colors that are concentrated into something like a bar. It also disappears quickly (under 5 minutes), as I've said before, and can't be detected unless you view a completely white or dark screen.

My total viewing time on the display is still likely under 200-250 hours and I have not toned down settings for any sort of "break in period". I even edited the service menu to allow for black bars while viewing 4:3 content (was not an option normally).

Quote:
A little defensive about our choice of technology aren't we?

More seriously, I usually prefer to watch TV in a normally lighted viewing room. For those of us who prefer such an environment, LCDs seemed to be the way to go. I recognize that in a very dark viewing environment the PQ of a plasma display may be marginally better than that of an LCD. Nevertheless, the potential problem of burn in coupled with plasmas' higher prices and the fact that I seldom watch TV in the dark, caused me to eliminate plasmas from my consideration.
Nope.

Unlike a lot of folks here, I own both a plasma and an LCD (glossy style) display (along with a CRT) and have spent a lot of time testing 2005 and 2006 models at various retail locations. I speak from experience, not some "my choice is better than yours" perspective. ;) I actually quite like both...but the LCD is relegated almost entirely to computer usage.

Regarding prices, I believe LCD panels ARE typically more expensive. Larger direct view LCD panels can't match plasma when it comes to price. Of course, price wasn't really an issue for me (which is why I had no problems selecting the Pioneer). I made an educated decision based on extensive testing with my own equipment. I don't believe that to be common practice, which prevents a lot of people from truly having hands-on experience with a wide variety of products.
gwsat's Avatar gwsat 02:01 PM 08-07-2006
Despite possible indications to the contrary, I respect the judgment of those who buy plasma instead of LCD displays. Different strokes and all that. I was expressing only my own opinion in earlier posts and was not advocating that others should necessarily make the same decision I made. If there is any area where one size does NOT fit all, it's HDTV. Come to think of it, all the choices and all the controversy over what is "best" are what make AVS Forum so much fun.
Spur's Avatar Spur 04:45 PM 08-07-2006
IR is the reason I eliminated the NEC 50 xr from consideration. IR and the seemingly more frequent reporting of dead/stuck pixels on the new Pio xx70 has me swaying away from ordering the 6070. Looks like the Panny 58 600u may be the one.

My only complaint is finding this forum and a year later making me feel like I am settling on a 5k + TEE VEE :eek:
Mark Lem's Avatar Mark Lem 04:51 PM 08-07-2006
I need a new tv!!

Was all set to go 50" plasma (panny or Pioneer) but am hesitant due to IR or burn in (maybe I'm wrong to be concerned)

OTH, with LCD I'm concerned about blurred images on fast motion...

What to do??? I want 50" or so in size. This is for tv watching, not really movies on DVD (have dedicated HT front PJ for that).

Help//
rajdude's Avatar rajdude 04:56 AM 08-08-2006
Just one look at any LCD based display, be it flat panel, projector of anything in between ;) is the deciding factor for me. They just dont do black...everything is grey. But of course, you have to be picky.

IMHO, this has nothing to do with the isssue if you are watching in a dark room or not. on a LCD blacks are grey, no matter where you watch.

Mr subjective's, of course :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat
A little defensive about our choice of technology aren't we? :)

More seriously, I usually prefer to watch TV in a normally lighted viewing room. For those of us who prefer such an environment, LCDs seemed to be the way to go. I recognize that in a very dark viewing environment the PQ of a plasma display may be marginally better than that of an LCD. Nevertheless, the potential problem of burn in coupled with plasmas' higher prices and the fact that I seldom watch TV in the dark, caused me to eliminate plasmas from my consideration.

optivity's Avatar optivity 05:14 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur
My only complaint is finding this forum and a year later making me feel like I am settling on a 5k + TEE VEE :eek:
At least you're better off then settling on a 50" $10,000 :eek: PRO-FHD1 that needs a 3-year-old SA8300 to get HDTV! :rolleyes:
rajdude's Avatar rajdude 06:00 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
At least you're better off then settling on a 50" $10,000 :eek: PRO-FHD1 that needs a 3-year-old SA8300 to get HDTV! :rolleyes:

hmmm...why spend that 10 grand on a "tiny" 50 incher ???? ;)
That money buys you a 80 incher

SIZE MATTERS ! :D
mule65's Avatar mule65 07:28 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat
A little defensive about our choice of technology aren't we? :)

More seriously, I usually prefer to watch TV in a normally lighted viewing room. For those of us who prefer such an environment, LCDs seemed to be the way to go. I recognize that in a very dark viewing environment the PQ of a plasma display may be marginally better than that of an LCD. Nevertheless, the potential problem of burn in coupled with plasmas' higher prices and the fact that I seldom watch TV in the dark, caused me to eliminate plasmas from my consideration.
Huh? Please show me a good 50" LCD that's less than a good 50" plasma. 45"? 42"?
gwsat's Avatar gwsat 07:29 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
hmmm...why spend that 10 grand on a "tiny" 50 incher ???? ;)
That money buys you a 80 incher

SIZE MATTERS ! :D
I agree. The size of the display makes the difference in PQ between plasma and LCD recede into insignificance, it seems to me. I have always believed that in HDTV Bigger is Better.

As to black levels being important in a normally lighted environment, all I can say is that I have not been able to see the problem. But to some of the purists, we who watch TV in normally lighted rooms are Philistines anyway, so perhaps my failure to take seriously the black level issue was to be expected. Anyway, I have not missed having a plasma and take some pride in knowing how much money not having one has saved.
mule65's Avatar mule65 07:35 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur
My only complaint is finding this forum and a year later making me feel like I am settling on a 5k + TEE VEE :eek:
Ditto! So I settled for my 1.3k TV and couldn't be happier. :D
BruZZi's Avatar BruZZi 07:46 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat

As to black levels being important in a normally lighted environment, all I can say is that I have not been able to see the problem. But to some of the purists, we who watch TV in normally lighted rooms are Philistines anyway, so perhaps my failure to take seriously the black level issue was to be expected.
Bright/very bright rooms enhance black levels perception.

Black Levels will be very inportant for those who like to watch TV in dark rooms.



Quote:
Anyway, I have not missed having a plasma and take some pride in knowing how much money not having one has saved.
Mind telling us wich LCD Display you have ???
jblank74's Avatar jblank74 10:13 AM 08-08-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1x
Hmm, you aren't picky when it comes to displays then? Is that about right?
Maybe he just did what I did, pick the technology he believes gives him the best bang for his buck. I have viewed everything from 60 inch plasmas, to 23 inch LCD's and to my eye, LCD's have just as good a picture without the worry for burn in.

I think he made the right call, you might disagree.
xb1032's Avatar xb1032 12:56 PM 08-14-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude
Just one look at any LCD based display, be it flat panel, projector of anything in between ;) is the deciding factor for me. They just dont do black...everything is grey. But of course, you have to be picky.

IMHO, this has nothing to do with the isssue if you are watching in a dark room or not. on a LCD blacks are grey, no matter where you watch.

Mr subjective's, of course :D
I agree. In normal lighting conditions some LCD black levels can actually look better than some plasmas because the background of some plasmas is a grayish type color. However, once the sun starts to go down and lighting goes down do fo LCD black levels. And really in my opinion the Panasonics are the only plasmas that I've noticed that don't have black level issues in low lighting (oh, and the newer Samsungs look good too).
xb1032's Avatar xb1032 01:02 PM 08-14-2006
I'm in a state of confusion as well with IR:confused:. My brother got the 37PX60U about a week ago and called me in fit thinking he had burn in. After only 2 hours of playing NCAA Football on the 360 he could see the scores on screen. Can't remember if it's only on a white or black background or not. I told him I'm sure he has IR and not burn in. He is within his 100 hours and has not turned down his contrast.

I really like the Panny 58PX60U and if the new Mits DLP or JVC doesn't look like much of an upgrade over my SXRD I may go for it if IR isn't going to be continual issue. Most of my viewing is Xbox 360, DVDs, and occasional TV.
optivity's Avatar optivity 02:10 PM 08-14-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032
I'm in a state of confusion as well with IR:confused:.

My brother got the 37PX60U about a week ago and called me in fit thinking he had burn in.

After only 2 hours of playing NCAA Football on the 360 he could see the scores on screen.

He is within his 100 hours and has not turned down his contrast.
Gaming for two hours on a new PDP set to torch mode... what did he expect? :rolleyes:

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