Your opinion of the Hitachi 42HDS69 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 08-16-2006, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anybody know much about this TV? CNET has no review and I'm interested in this or the Panasonic TH42PX60U.

I actually already purchased and returned the TH37PX60U because I wasn't happy with the dullness of whites. But I might just go ahead and buy another Panasonic anyways since LCD's are brighter but just don't have equal PQ (so everybody says).

This TV has a CableCard slot and from what I hear that can really improve TV PQ. So that's something that the Panny doesn't have.

I wish I could more easily veiw this TV but CC is over an hour away and that's $30 a trip in my truck. Not to mention a lot of time that I don't have. So I"d appreciate any advice?
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post #2 of 42 Old 08-17-2006, 10:52 AM
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There are some recent posts from 42HDS69 owners. The few on this forum who have purchased seem happy, myself included, but most on here prefer Panny or Pioneer.

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post #3 of 42 Old 08-17-2006, 12:57 PM
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If you watch alot of sports at 1080i, then the 42" ALiS Hitachis may be worth considering since they're among the few flat panels in that size-range that should be able to display 1080i in it's native interlaced format, as opposed to deinterlacing to a progressive display mode.

The out-of-box color on the 42HDS69 seems to be a little tweaked-up (blueish) and pushed in the red though. The Pannies and a couple other panels (e.g. Hewlett Packard PL4260N), when properly adjusted, seem more reasonable in that respect. If you thought the Panny's whites looked too dull though, then you may prefer the cooler look of the Hitachis.

If accurate color is a consideration, some of the higher-end Hitachis include more sophisticated color adjustments in their user-level controls. Or maybe some users have found a combination of settings, or adjustments in the service mode to address this on the HDS69?

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post #4 of 42 Old 08-17-2006, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

The out-of-box color on the 42HDS69 seems to be a little tweaked-up (blueish) and pushed in the red though. The Pannies and a couple other panels (e.g. Hewlett Packard PL4260N), when properly adjusted, look more reasonable in that respect. If you thought the Panny's whites looked too dull though, then you may prefer the cooler look of the Hitachis.

I noticed that when I looked at the 42HDS69 at both BestBuy and CircuitCity. Are you not able to adjust it easily, or are the store clerks just taking them out of the box and turning them on without trying to set the color? Neither of these stores here let people use the remotes or even look at them, so I wasn't able to try to tweak.
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post #5 of 42 Old 08-17-2006, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If you watch alot of sports at 1080i, then the 42" ALiS Hitachis may be worth consideration since they're among the few flat panels in that size-range that should be able to display 1080i in it's native interlaced format, as opposed to deinterlacing to a progressive display mode.

The out-of-box color on the 42HDS69 seems to be a little tweaked-up (blueish) and pushed in the red though. The Pannies and a couple other panels (e.g. Hewlett Packard PL4260N), when properly adjusted, look more reasonable in that respect. If you thought the Panny's whites looked too dull though, then you may prefer the cooler look of the Hitachis.

If accurate color is a consideration, some of the higher-end Hitachis include more sophisticated color adjustments in their user-level controls. Or maybe some users have found a combination of settings, or adjustments in the service mode to address this on the HDS69?

Is the service mode that thing where you have to put in like a code through the remote or something and you can make more adjustments to the TV than just through the menu?
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post #6 of 42 Old 08-17-2006, 11:48 PM
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Affirmative. Most displays have em, so I'm guessin these may too (though it's possible they could be controlled via just firmware instead). It's also were you can royally muck-up your display if you don't know what you're doin as well though. So it's not somethin I'd recommend tinkering with without documentation and some very sound, reliable guidance (and perhaps not even then, if you're not very tech-savvy).

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post #7 of 42 Old 08-18-2006, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossl View Post

I noticed that when I looked at the 42HDS69 at both BestBuy and CircuitCity. Are you not able to adjust it easily, or are the store clerks just taking them out of the box and turning them on without trying to set the color?

I'm not sure rossl. The default showroom settings are typically the most heavily tweaked. And that's the way you'll usually see a display configured. There are different color temperatures and nighttime/daytime settings in the user menus though. Whether or not those would be sufficient to achieve something approximating an accurate greyscale and color-decoding on their own, I don't really know. That's sort of why I was askin, to see if anyone else knows a little more about this.

Not that I necessarily recommend the HPs over the Hitachi, but adjusting color seemed like a snap on the HP PL4260N by comparison to most other displays. All I had to do was set the Color Temp to Standard, and dial in Color saturation (mid-60's seemed about right for the HDMI player I tested), Brightness, Contrast & Sharpness with DVE, and it seemed good to go with some very neutral-lookin color. (For digital input anyway. Didn't test component or VGA.)

The Sammy wasn't too difficult either, once I learned my way around its user menu. Though setting it to what appeared to be the most neutral color (Movie mode + Warm2 temp) did seem to sacrifice some contrast. I haven't been able to crack the "neutrality code" quite so easily via the user menus on the Hitachi HDS69. Haven't spent quite as much time with them as some other displays though.
Quote:


Neither of these stores here let people use the remotes or even look at them, so I wasn't able to try to tweak.

If memory serves, there's a control panel on the middle right side of the Hitachi behind the bezel that also enables access to the User menus.

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post #8 of 42 Old 08-18-2006, 07:16 AM
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Hello
I've had the 42HDS69 for about a month now and I am completely in love with it. I went so far to make sure my love wasn't blind buy purchasing a Panny 60U and running a side by side. Let me tell you, the Hitachi won without breaking a sweat. The blacks, while they were darker on the Panny, contained so much grain that it was distracting. Some people (myself included) have noticed a flicker during dark scenes on the Hitachi, but this problem has been severly reduced after a little use (I'm at about 205 hours).

HD Signals are breathtaking and SD signals looked 100x better than I anticipated. Even using the 4:3 expanded settings, everything holds up pretty well.

DVD: I'm using a Toshiba Upconvert DVD player to 1080i through an HDMI cable and this too, just like the SD signal, was WAY better than expected. I've watched about 15 movies on DVD so far with the set and each one looked great (quality of the disc definelty a factor however). I just started watching Rescue Me season 1 on DVD, and that too looked fantastic- I wasn't expecting much being that it was a TV show.

I have my XBOX 360 hooked up to it as well and all I can say is, "wow!" Each game looks 100x better.

About IR: At first (especially during the first 100 hours) Image Retention is pretty evident (nowhere near so much as the Panny however) but not much of an issue. It's difficult to see unless you're less a foot from the screen in a completely darkened room with no signal coming through to the set (read: you can't see it during normal viewing). Now that I have about 200 hours on the set, IR is much less of a problem. Yes, it still happens, but after a little normal TV viewing, it's gone. Just keep your contrast under 40 and you'll be fine. The Panny, on the other hand, showed IR from normal viewing distances. Boo.

Service Menu: This can be accessed by pressing Menu, Menu, 8, Select. This needs to be done fairly quickly and usually 2 times in a row. Like others have said, don't mess around in here. It's only good use (for me at least) is that this is where the hour counter is housed.

That's it. I love the set. Everything looks great and it can be had for a great price if you look around.

LN52A650
42HDS69
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post #9 of 42 Old 08-19-2006, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't wait to check out this TV at CC tomorrow.
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post #10 of 42 Old 08-19-2006, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savedslave View Post

I can't wait to check out this TV at CC tomorrow.

Saw the commercial of the new 42" 1080i Hitachi and the commercial was amazing - watch for it on HD Channels - White Loepard and spilling colored diamonds - amazing clarity on my 45" Sharp - but it's the worlds smallest 1080 PDP even though it's not full 1080P yet. Uses 16 bit processing. Director's Series is all black. Commercial is by a famous French Film Director. They will also have a 55" version of this panel (Still not available but is to be full 1080P).

1024 x 1080i Display Resolution
Hitachi's 42-inch high definition HDTV provides the world's first 42" 1080i display screen for a state of the art plasma viewing experience.


Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #11 of 42 Old 08-20-2006, 01:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savedslave View Post

Your opinion of the Hitachi 42HDS69?

I don't know much about Hitachi PDPs, however Best Buy's price for the 55" 55HDS69 is quite impressive.
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post #12 of 42 Old 08-20-2006, 05:12 PM
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and while you're at Best Buy, go into the Magnolia corner of the building and look at the Hitachi HDX models...
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post #13 of 42 Old 08-20-2006, 05:18 PM
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Why aren't the 55" Hitachi's also 1081i ?
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post #14 of 42 Old 08-20-2006, 07:37 PM
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I think Hitachi poured more love into the 42"...at least, that's the impression I got when talking to them at a conference. They sounded surprised at how well the new 55" is selling (the old 42" model flew off the shelves for us; it was THE competing model against the Pan TH42PX50U). We asked them why they didn't stick with the all-black look and they thought everyone wanted the silver but now they realize the all-black was popular so they may go back to it in later models. They also didn't realize the motorized swivel stand was such a big selling feature. They make great sets but they seemed a little out of touch with what made the HDS52 line so popular.
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post #15 of 42 Old 08-21-2006, 04:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendek View Post

and while you're at Best Buy, go into the Magnolia corner of the building and look at the Hitachi HDX models...

There are no Magnolia's or Costco's in the upstate (Sm)Albany NY region.

However, Verizon FiOS has been installed on my street.
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post #16 of 42 Old 08-24-2006, 06:51 PM
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mkaz527, or anyone else who's used or tinkered with this model quite a bit...

What picture settings (day/night, temp, color, tint, sharpness... ) would you recommend for the most accurate picture fidelity on the 42HDS69? And what aspect ratio setting do you use to achieve proper 1:1 display of 1080i?

(This would be for an HDMI player at 1080i btw, if that makes a difference.)

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post #17 of 42 Old 08-24-2006, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossl View Post

I noticed that when I looked at the 42HDS69 at both BestBuy and CircuitCity. Are you not able to adjust it easily, or are the store clerks just taking them out of the box and turning them on without trying to set the color? Neither of these stores here let people use the remotes or even look at them, so I wasn't able to try to tweak.


I wonder if there's some Factory Default Setting options that they can just click to after we potential buyers come in and play with their toys..?
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post #18 of 42 Old 08-24-2006, 11:52 PM
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Most stores use the sets as they are out of the box while some with actual tv enthusiasts will try to adjust the settings to be optimal. Unfortunately for me at my work, i have to use torch mode in most cases because our lighting is so bright in store. Last week i walked into a Magnolia AV store and adjusted their 42" sharp lcd and it looked way better.

I like the Hitachi overall in comparison to the Panasonic. Though its silver like the Panasonic, its not plastic. The brushed aluminum silver frame makes the tv look what it costs and offers more connections then Panasonic. However, panasonic looked sharper in picture but with more jagged edges while hitachi's picture was smoother. And as people have said, the panasonic achieves a darker black even against hitachis black enhancement and contrast enhancement. I do agree that Panasonic looses detail in some shadow.
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post #19 of 42 Old 08-25-2006, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If you watch alot of sports at 1080i, then the 42" ALiS Hitachis may be worth considering since they're among the few flat panels in that size-range that should be able to display 1080i in it's native interlaced format, as opposed to deinterlacing to a progressive display mode.

The out-of-box color on the 42HDS69 seems to be a little tweaked-up (blueish) and pushed in the red though. The Pannies and a couple other panels (e.g. Hewlett Packard PL4260N), when properly adjusted, seem more reasonable in that respect. If you thought the Panny's whites looked too dull though, then you may prefer the cooler look of the Hitachis.

If accurate color is a consideration, some of the higher-end Hitachis include more sophisticated color adjustments in their user-level controls. Or maybe some users have found a combination of settings, or adjustments in the service mode to address this on the HDS69?

I'm a 42HDS69 owner and my settings for color are "color temperature" at "high" with the tint at the unadjusted middle setting. And with the color turned down to realistic saturation levels I find the color accuracy to be quite good and quite neutral.

Great tv.
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post #20 of 42 Old 08-25-2006, 08:28 AM
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Did any one tried PC source? This set does't have PC input. I'm interested with the quality with a DVI to HDMI cable. Does it also provide 1080 lines of resolution?
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post #21 of 42 Old 08-28-2006, 01:15 AM
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In the other thread, RoByte stated that the connection would work but the HDMI port would only accept standard tv resolutions such as 720 or 1080.
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post #22 of 42 Old 08-28-2006, 05:57 AM
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I saw the 42hds69 at BB this weekend. If I was to buy another plasma, it would be a 50 inch, but the picture on the Hitachi was so good, I was tempted to take it home. I was standing about a foot and a half away from it and I couldn't believe the clarity of that picture. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Hitachi, but they don't make the size I want.
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post #23 of 42 Old 08-29-2006, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remotecontrolled View Post

I saw the 42hds69 at BB this weekend. If I was to buy another plasma, it would be a 50 inch, but the picture on the Hitachi was so good, I was tempted to take it home. I was standing about a foot and a half away from it and I couldn't believe the clarity of that picture. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Hitachi, but they don't make the size I want.

I remember 50 inch model has lower resolution than 42 inch. Seems only 42" model has native 1080 lines of resolution.
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post #24 of 42 Old 09-01-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphi96 View Post

I'm a 42HDS69 owner and my settings for color are "color temperature" at "high" with the tint at the unadjusted middle setting. And with the color turned down to realistic saturation levels I find the color accuracy to be quite good and quite neutral.

Great tv.

Tks for the reply delphi96. And sorry about the delay in getting back. I found a pretty good deal on a used 42HDS69 though, and have been busy gettin that and some other new equipment set up and tested.

So far, I'm fairly impressed with the 42HDS69. The picture on this display is remarkably CRT-like in many ways. The interlacing is undoubtedy partially responsible for that. However, the pixel response, color saturation and brightness all seem outstanding as well. The scaling on the display is also excellent. The amount of detail it's able to extract from even a measley component DVD source is frankly astounding, and looks better than the HD I've seen on some other displays.

The one area where it 's a bit lacking to me so far is black depth. My requirements in this area may be somewhat unusual, so I'm not gonna comment too much on this, except to mention that the positioning of the display in relation to lighter and darker areas of a room may help or hinder the situation to a good degree. For the best impression of depth, you'll probably want to face the display toward a dark area, and have the brighter areas behind it. There's ample white level (Contrast) on the display, so that can be dialed up if need be to compensate for the brightness of the background, without the black levels increasing. There are controls in the Video menus which can be used to enhance the contrast or crush the blacks to give the impression of greater depth as well (though these have no effect on the absolute black level).

Re the color... after spending some more time with this, much of my concern in this area seems to have been unfounded. The color decoding seems very decent, once the Color saturation setting is approprately adjusted with DVE. There is in fact no evidence of red push that I can detect on any of the three Temp settings. So the difference in color temps seems to be solely a function of the RGB drives, which simplifies things. (LCD panels I've tested work the same way.)

The Temp that looks best to me so far is Medium. Once the other controls are configured appropriately, this seems to consistently yield the most neutral-looking greys, and best color differentiation and flesh tones. If you're lookin for the "neutrality switch" on the display, Medium Temp with Color set to the low 30's (and Contrast Mode set to Normal) may put you pretty close. Tint may need some minor adjustment on analog sources as the manual indicates, however the default setting seemed pretty good for the component and DVI sources I've looked at so far.

A DVD that might be worth checking out with regard to color is Jerry Lewis's original 1963 version of The Nutty Professor, which has an amazingly diverse and rich palette of colors and textures, including greens, reds, pinks, purples, blues, yellows, browns, wood textures and great flesh tones. There are a number of shots where facial tones can be compared to both similarly-colored backgrounds (ie pinks, beiges and wood tones), and also more neutral grey backgrounds. Looks fantastic once color and contrast are configured well. Another good one for color (if you want to impress yourself when your adjustments are done) is Shrek2, though it's a little harder to gauge what's "accurate" since it's all computer-generated.

The High temp seems to be minus green and perhaps plus a little blue compared to Medium, which is why it looks cooler and a bit redder (ie sort of purple-tinted). Standard is minus blue and some green giving it a warmer look that may be more reminiscent of a 5500K movie projector. Background lighting (among other things) could be a factor in which you prefer. FWIW, most of my viewing has been done with ~6500K background illumination and natural daylight.

Re computer input... despite what's stated in the manual, the 42HDS69 is able to recognize a couple standard PC modes via DVI->HDMI, namely 640x480 (VGA) and 1024x768 (XGA) at 60Hz. Both display without any overscan, and you get two AR options to choose from: Normal (4:3) and Full (16:9). (Note: the AR settings work differently depending on the type of signal sent to the display, so there are other options with SD and HDTV sources.) 1024x768 appears to map 1:1 to the TV's native horizontal rez of 1024 in Full mode. The picture is very sharp and clear with this mode once a couple other controls are appropriately set. (NR on High, and Sharpness reduced to about 10%.) If you're watching video or DVDs from a PC, then you may want to increase Sharpness a bit or tweak these differently depending on the softness of the video material being displayed.

I would not recommed using the display for web-browsing, and other pedestrian PC activities though due to the risk of burn-in. There may also be a risk of damaging the display by trying to send it resolutions or frequencies different (ie higher) than it's designed for. For the record, 1920x1080p at 60Hz did not work. Although the display does much of it's internal processing at 1080p, Hitachi confirmed that it does not support 1080p input.

Anyway, those are a few highlights of my experience so far. I've got a few thoughts on some of the "flickering" issues as well, but will have to get to those later. Not sure if this is THE display for me yet. But so far the experience has been a pretty positive one. With PQ like this, I can certainly understand why many people are jazzed about their plasmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

And what aspect ratio setting do you use to achieve proper 1:1 display of 1080i?

Standard 2 seems to be the correct setting for mapping 1080i at 100% to the display's screen. Many displays in stores seem to be set to Standard 1, which adds a little overscan, and probably some scaling/interpolation, rather than mapping directly 1:1. Something you might want to try to see if you can detect a difference.

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post #25 of 42 Old 09-01-2006, 03:32 PM
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ADU, thanks for the detailed thoughts - this is one of my front-runners along with the Panasonic 42PHD9UK (I wish the 42HDS69 was black!) so it's great to hear from people who have it.

Be sure to come back and let us know about the flickering issue you alluded to.

Jason
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post #26 of 42 Old 09-04-2006, 12:24 AM
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FWIW, I've noticed a number of different effects on the 42HDS69 that could probably fall into the category of "flickering issues", including floating/fluctuating blacks, clamped/limited white levels (ie contrast), pixel orbiting/shifting, and various interlacing and deinterlacing effects.

If I'm interpreting remarks in this thread correctly, it sounds like the floating/fluctuating black levels may be the effect that bothers some people the most. The problem is worst with the Dynamic Contrast Mode enabled, which produces a pretty unattractive and overly-enhanced picture, so it's not much use anyway. Once the Dynamic Contrast Mode is disabled, all that's left (for the most part) is some relatively minor floating of blacks which is only really visible (to me anyway) with rather low or no surrounding illumination. FWIW, this seems to be a fairly common issue on plasma displays, and not something totally exclusive to just Hitachis. The floating of blacks in the Normal Contrast Mode is sort of similar to the way blacks float on a CRT. So this may be a feature deliberately designed to give the Hitachi plasmas a more CRT-like contrast response. As long as there's a decent level of ambient illumination though, it should be less noticeable.

If you wanted to stop the white level/contrast clamping as well (which is probably not as beneficial), you should be able to locate the clamp point by displaying a high APL (ie bright) image, and then raising or lowering contrast until you find the setting where the changes in picture intensity stop. Setting Contrast below this point should stop the clamping. The downside is that darker imagery will appear less dynamic.

"Clamped" and "crushed" contrast/white levels are two different things btw. There are no signs of white crush on the display that I can detect. The clamping is simply designed to keep the contrast in the picture from becoming too overpowering to your eyes in bright scenes.

The clamping is dependent on the average picture level (APL) of the image. IOW brighter images are clamped at lower contrast levels than darker images. On tests with DVE the clamping seems to work roughly as follows. (This is for an HDMI player w/unexpanded palette. More details here):

CONTRAST CLAMPING RESULTS:
Code:

      -----Contrast Clamp Point-----
APL   Day-Dynamic  Day-Normal  Night

20%      100%         77%       77%
40%      100%         70%       70%     
60%       59%         54%       59%
80%       33%         29%       32%      
100%      20%         17%       19%

This is with Brightness adjusted close to DVE spec. Since the clamping is dependent on APL, the clamp points will likely change depending on how other controls (eg Brightness, Black Enhancement, Day/Night and Contrast Mode) are set on the display or input device.

The floating blacks may also work a little differently depending on which Day/Night setting is used. See some tips here for more.

If you see the whole picture shift position by a small amount every few minutes, that's probably the pixel orbiter/shifter which is part of the SCREEN SAVER functions in the SETUP menu.

That brings us to interlacing/deinterlacing issues, which is sort of a complicated subject. First thing you should know (in case you already don't) is that the 42HDS69 is an interlaced display, unlike the vast majority of other flat panels which are progressive. Rather than updating all pixels on the screen in every refresh, an interlaced display alternates between updating just the odd and even lines with every refresh. Hopefully that's not a new concept to most folks on this forum, since interlacing has been with us since the 50's on standard NTSC 480i TVs. The 42HDS69 has 1080 interlaced lines rather than a mere 480 though.

Both technologies (interlaced and progressive) have their advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage of a display like the 42HDS69 is it can display 1080i in it's native interlaced format. This can be particularly beneficial with field-based 1080i video which is more difficult to deinterlace to progressive frames than film/frame-based content. An interlaced display shoud retain more of the original look and feel of field-based content, motion and detail-wise, because it doesn't have to "invent" information to fill in the missing lines the way progressive displays do with field-based 1080i. Interlaced displays may also give film-based content a somewhat "live-er" feeling as well, due to less repetition of information on the screen (since the odd and even lines are separated in time).

The downside is that interlaced displays may exhibit slightly more noticeable flicker, jitter or twitter on pictures with alot of fine vertical detail, especially thin horizontal lines. A slight amount of blurring is often applied to video in a vertical direction to minimize the interlaced twitter on horizontal lines and details. High sharpness and edge-enhancement on the display may restore some of the twitter though (this can be seen in DVE's multiburst vertical pattern at Title 13, Chapter 3). Some people are bothered by the twitter/jitter/flicker. Others less so. From what I've seen looking at various test patterns, especially via a computer input, the 42HDS69 applies some edge/detail-enhancement in all of the "NR" modes, except the High setting (with lower Sharpness settings). It might be more appropriate to call the NR modes "detail-enhancement modes", since that's more the way they seem to behave. The Off NR setting seems to have the highest edge/detail-enhancement, and the High NR setting appears to have the lowest (getting close to none at about 10% Sharpness). So if you want to minimize the slight overall flicker/jitter/twitter as a consequence of interlacing alone, the High setting, as some others have already concluded, is likely your best bet. Whether that will look best to you is your call. On some sources (such as computer input or game graphics), it may be difficult to remove ALL the twitter or jitter on horizontal lines or edges, without adjusting the antialiasing or softness on the source itself.

On now to the deinterlacing artifacts... You might be thinking to yourself: why would an interlaced display need to deinterlace video in order to display it? Well there are two cases where this can apply-- when feeding the display a different interlaced resolution than it's native display format of 1080i, and when displaying it's native rez either magnified or reduced (especially in a vertical direction). Case #1 = 480i. Case #2 = 1080i with AR modes other than Standard 2.

Case #2 is (relatively) straight-forward. If you want to see a 1080i source with the fewest scaling/interpolation and deinterlacing artifacts, then using the Standard 2 AR setting should map to the screen's vertical resolution at 100% or 1:1. This may be more crucial on field/video-based 1080i content than on film-based content, since the latter can probably be deinterlaced and then reinterlaced more effectively. (Note that the AR modes may work differently on other Hitachi models with a native rez of 1024i rather than 1080i.)

Case #1 is slightly more involved. The display's internal processing on 480i signals probably goes something like this:

Step 1: 480i deinterlaced to 480p.
Step 2: 480p scaled to 1080p
Step 3: 1080p re-interlaced to 1080i.

The most crucial step from a user's standpoint is the first one. If the 480i source isn't deinterlaced well to begin with, then bobbing, or weaving/combing, and more jagginess are usually the result. To complicate matters, the deinterlacing can take place either in the display or the source (if you're using a progressive or upconverting DVD player for example, or upconverting 480i with a receiver).

Since 480i comes in alot of different flavors (film or video-based, field or frame-based), the component doing the deinterlacing has to be very dextrous to avoid unnecessarily dropping into "video mode" and simply doubling up the lines, which is what produces the more pronounced bobbing/flicker and jagginess on horizontal and diagonal edges and lines.

The display will simply look at the picture information in the 480i signal and try to make an educated guess how to perform the deinterlacing based on that. This is known as cadence detection. Some displays are better at this process than others. The quality of the signal may also be a factor.

Progressive and upconverting DVD players rely primarily on flags, which works pretty well on most maintstream DVDs, but is not 100% reliable either. Better players may use both flags and cadence detection, and/or more sophisticated motion adaptive techniques. (There's a good article on this here.)

If you want to see what bobbing/jaggies/line-doubling look like, feed your 42HDS69 some anime/or 2D animation at 480i and turn the AUTO MOVIE MODE in the Video settings off. This puts the display's deinterlacer into "video mode". Horizontal lines should flicker or bob up and down noticeably, and diagonal lines should have a stair step effect. The effect is similar to interlaced twitter, only more ugly and pronounced.

When AUTO MOVIE MODE is turned on, the display will search for the distinctive 3-2 cadence in film-based 480i content, and use a process called reverse telecine to deinterlace it. Under normal circumstances this should produce a much smoother-looking image, free of deinterlacing artifacts associated with the simpler line-doubling technique employed by the video mode.

If you see noticeable bobbing, jaggies or other line-doubling type effects with AUTO MOVIE MODE enabled, then the 480i source may be video or field-based rather than film-based, or the display may simply be having difficulty keeping track of the film cadence, and is switching from reverse telecine to line-doubling until it's able to pick the film cadence up again. I've noticed this with various film-based DVDs, including opening scenes in SW:ANH and some animated titles. Sometimes you'll see the line-doubling come and go, as the display tries to lock onto the film cadence. If this starts happening try letting the player do the deinterlacing instead, by switching it's output from 480i to 480p (or 720p or 1080i if it upconverts). It's possible the display may have an easier time with digital 480i inputs (ie HDMI), than with analog as well. That's a theory I've yet to test though.

Using a 480p input generally seems to produce less in the way of motion artifacts on the 42HDS69 as well (though that may vary with the player). So I try to avoid using 480i whenever possible.

If you're using fluorescent light or dimmers for your background/room lighting that could also contribute to the sensation of flicker on the display or eye fatigue. More here.

I think that about covers most of the flickery type stuff I've seen. The only issues above that are probably unique to Hitachi's ALiS displays are the interlacing issues. All of the others (including the deinterlacing artifacts) also can occur on progressive displays.

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post #27 of 42 Old 09-06-2006, 05:11 AM
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The one area where it 's a bit lacking to me so far is black depth. My requirements in this area may be somewhat unusual, so I'm not gonna comment too much on this, except to mention that the positioning of the display in relation to lighter and darker areas of a room may help or hinder the situation to a good degree. For the best impression of depth, you'll probably want to face the display toward a dark area, and have the brighter areas behind it. There's fairly ample white level on the display, so that can be dialed up (albeit at the expense of aging the phosphors a little faster and perhaps increasing the potential for burn-in) if need be to compensate for the brightness of the background, without the black levels increasing. There are controls in the Picture menus which can be used to enhance the contrast or crush the blacks to give the impression of greater depth as well (though these have no effect on the absolute black level).

I'm going to make an led ambient backlight for the TV when I get some time. The purer white light of white leds should work better than using those inexpensive rope lights mentioned in another thread with their very warm light.


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Standard 2 seems to be the correct setting for mapping 1080i at 100% to the display's screen. Many displays in stores seem to be set to Standard 1, which adds a little overscan, and probably some scaling/interpolation, rather than mapping directly 1:1. Something you might want to try to see if you can detect a difference.


The problem with that, at least with my display, is you often get gibberish along the edges. For example my local NBC shows a yellow line along one edge. It's as if some channels are not as well aligned as others, if that makes any sense. My PBS, CBS, FOX, and ABC fit perfectly. My CBS though, at standard 2, causes a small amount of shake that is easily visible in small details so I watch it at 1. I have only noticed this, so far, happening with the Letterman show.

Standard 1 applies a 5% crop. I wish it was like 2% as that would be a good compromise.

Thanks for the posts ADU. A lot of good info.
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post #28 of 42 Old 12-03-2006, 02:39 PM
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I am too interested in buying the 42HDS69. It does have the best picture amongst the other 42 inchers. Although, I am still a little curious in conecting a PC into this display. I noticed that ADU (Member) has done it but if the display is capable of 1024X1080 can't you give it that resolution from a PC? I would like to know what other options there are for displaying through a PC. Thank you for any help.
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post #29 of 42 Old 12-05-2006, 09:43 PM
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Hey Tim.

I can understand your interest in trying something like 1024x1080 on the 42HDS69. Whether it would be worth the trouble though, I can't really say for sure.

The display does not seem to be compatible with progressive 1080p signals. So it would probably have to be configured as an interlaced HDTV timing, namely 1024x1080i. That might be doable with a program like Powerstrip. The scaler in the 42HDS69 is quite good though, so it should give superb results with either a standard 60Hz 1024x768 XGA PC mode, or with standard 1280x720p or 1920x1080i HDTV timings (if your vidcard supports those*) via DVI/HDMI. The Hitchi can display all these resolutions without overscan as well. So if you want 1080 lines, using a standard interlaced 1920x1080i HDTV timing might be the easiest way to go. Progressive modes like 720p and 1024x768 should look excellent as well though. (Other 60Hz 768p resolutions may possibly work as well, but you'll loose the 1:1 mapping in the horizontal.)

At first, you'll probably notice some pronounced edge-enhancement and a bit of line twitter/flicker on text with your PC input. However the EE can be completely eliminated and the interlaced twitter significanty reduced by disabling the edge-enhancement on the TV. This is done by setting NOISE REDUCTION to HIGH, and reducing SHARPNESS to about 10%. (NR is actually Hitachi's code word for edge-enhancement. The HIGH NR setting in conjunction with low SHARPNESS turns the EE off.)

If the TV overscans any of the above, just switch the ASPECT RATIO on the TV a couple times till the picture displays with no overscan. There will be more AR options with 720p/1080i than with XGA. The STANDARD 2 AR mode should display 720p/1080i without overscan. 1024x768 (XGA) may initially display with some overscan as well, but switching the AR mode on the TV should cause it to re-sync, and display without overscan. There are 2 AR options with XGA. It can be displayed with either 4:3 pillarboxing (square pixel aspect) or stretched to fill the whole screen (ie mapped 1:1 to the display's 1024 horizontal rez). You may want to limit or avoid use of the 4:3 pillarbox mode, particularly when the TV is new and most vulnerable. However the display does have the option for grey side bars (rather than black) which may help to reduce the risks of burn-in somewhat.

The bottom line-- PC inputs are very workable and should look quite good on these displays. There may be a small amount of twitter visible on some static graphics due to the interlaced nature of the display**. However games*** and video should look quite good.

The main area of weakness PQ-wise on these display is the black levels. The conventional wisdom is plasmas have deeper blacks than LCD. The Hitachis are probably the exception to this rule. Their black levels seem to be among the brightest of most plasmas I've seen, and probably not even as good as some of the better LCDs in this dept.

Plasma displays also have rather poor definition in their dark shades as a rule because they display color in a linear fashion (unlike CRTs which have a non-linear response). The upshot is if you're viewing one of these Hitachi displays in a darker room, the blacks will not look nearly as deep as a CRT, the picture will lack depth, and there will probably be some noticeable noise and dithering apparent in darker colors. Using good bias lighting behind the display can help to ameliorate that somewhat, but it probably won't eliminate it from being visible. If deep blacks are high on your list of priorities, then other brands may be worth exploring instead.

If you have a sensitive nose, you may also notice the Hitachis have a somewhat more pungent aroma than some other displays, especially if they aren't well ventilated.

These were some of the reasons I decided to pass on the Hitachi. Burn-in was a consideration for me as well, since alot of content I watch is in scoped (~2.35AR) widescreen format. 42" was also a little overwhelming for the small space where this display was to be used.

Aside from these factors though, I found the picture on 42HDS69 very pleasing. Some DVDs were eye-poppingly gorgeous on the display. And it's performance, resolution and motion-wise, with HD content is second to none IMHO for this size plasma. I think my needs may be better served by a somewhat smaller LCD though for the time being. (Problem is, I'm havin a tough time finding one of those that suits me perfectly as well. )

*Your PC/vidcard will probably have to support/output fully-HDTV compliant signals via DVI for the 720p and 1080i modes to work successfully.

**Using antialiased fonts may help to reduce the twitter as well.

***Edit: One issue you could run into is some lag between the PC and display on games.

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post #30 of 42 Old 12-05-2006, 10:09 PM
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I'm going to make an led ambient backlight for the TV when I get some time.

How did the LEDs work out delphi96? (I'm still straining my eyes using fluorescents.)

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