PANASONIC 65" 1080p PLASMA (TH-65PX600U) Owners Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 743 Old 10-15-2006, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SDL View Post


So does the 65" 1080p Panny easily win this competition or are these sets close enough that is it still a matter of deciding which trade-offs matter most to me?

SDL

Well all I have is an opinion but...

I think it's a matter of trade-offs. I've never really thought plasma was "better" than the SXRD displays, more like "different" and so it depends on what type of image floats your boat. For me plasma is much "better" because I'm very sensitive to the silk screen effect on the SXRDs (among other reasons), but to someone who doesn't really notice that artifact on the SXRD then they aren't necessarily going to see things as I do. I think SXRD still appears to me to have the edge in terms of a film-like presentation (although I did find the new Panasonic capable of the most film-like image I've seen from a plasma), and probably better shadow detail (I say probably because I haven't seen the new Panasonic via HDMI, which should allow for more levels of shadow gradation), the SXRDs have deeper black levels than the new Panasonic (although I still find black objects on the plasma tend to look more "solid" than the SXRD), and the SXRDs have tons of resolution and color detail (although the SXRD is known to have somewhat "hyped" colors).

So it seems to me to boil down to application and personal preference. I think the SXRDs are incredible, yet I strongly prefer the new Panasonic plasma. I can't speak for anyone else.

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post #182 of 743 Old 10-15-2006, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SDL View Post

My take on the Pioneer 6070 is that it is a little small for a "big" tv, but I like the overall picture very much -- especially for a set that doesn't have "full" HD resolution. How much better is the 65" Panny? I've seen the 50" 1080p Pioneer and it looks wonderful, but it is simply too small and too expensive.

SDL

Rich H,

I remember you being fairly impressed with the Pioneer 6070. What's your take on a comparison of the Pio with the 65" 1080p Panny? One of these days, my local shop will have them both on display so that I can see them myself, but I'm getting impatient.
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post #183 of 743 Old 10-15-2006, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zaracsan View Post

For all that might have an interest, I turned up a coupon code that takes $10 off this DVD ordered directly from HQV, and it appears the shipping was included in my $20 charge total. This is an old coupon code, but it worked just fine on my recent order. This offer might go away based on activity, so don't shuffle your feet if you want in on this *deal*. Code: GoHQV

Thanks for the discount code find.
I just ordered it using that code and got the same deal for $20 total, with no extra charges for S&H.
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post #184 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Hutchinson View Post

Pretty much.

That's pretty amazing.

But, I am sure that if I displayed the pattern via my computer with 1080P HDMI, it would be perfect (identical to the source.)

I am not sure whether to blaim the Panasonic and its overscan (STUPID STUPID) or the TiVo.


Larry,
If you cant see alternating black and white line pattern (or dark grey- light grey) on the horizontal resolution wedges (vertical lines) out to around 8, and on the vertical resolution wedges (horizontal lines) out to around 11, there is something wrong.

As I said before, I have a DELL 1920x1200 LCD as well as a CRT RPTV, and can view both at the same equalised viewing distance of 4 times screen height.
Horizontal resolution is basically identical on both, and vertical res is a little better on the LCD, as interlacing flicker tends to obscure the upper limits above 8.
However, when viewing video, both displays show basically the same visible detail.
PC text and graphics are a different ball game entirely, and the LCD is obviously much better for that task.

It appears that your old Pioneer CRT has some very significant and ugly edge enhancement enabled, which is not helping it at all.
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post #185 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Owen,

I just don't think the Panasonic plasma's black levels will do for someone as black-level-obsessed as you. (And that's coming from a fellow black level fiend ).

They just ain't CRT and ain't gonna be anytime soon. Although, with some ambient lighting on I find the current (non-1080p) 9gen Panasonic plasma have pretty impressive looking black levels, especially for a digital display.

It sounds like you have a problem with the SSE on digital RPTVs like the SXRDs. Same here, it just kills the experience for me (and I'm actually blown away by just how obtrusive it can be, like watching an image through crinkled plastic wrap). But, then, your ND filter idea could be the ticket to get it low enough in light output to make SSE less an issue.

Your comments about the peak FL that you are comfortable with also seems to make the Panasonic less compelling. As you have pointed out, you'll probably be wanting to get the light output down quite a bit for low-light viewing and (minus an ND filter tweak) all you are doing there is reducing the dynamic range that is part of plasma's appeal.

As I've mentioned before, I've actually experimented with ND filter gel on my Panasonic
plasma, and it's fascinating to see a plasma with such deep black levels. But of course I do take a hit on overall brightness to get it there, and the NG gel isn't optical-quality, and so there's a little hit in clarity.

It sounds like some plasmas with terrific contrast/black levels are on the horizon from Pioneer and Panasonic, but not likely until late 2007 at best (I believe).

Now, after sounding somewhat down about the black levels of the Panasonic I can at least tell you my personal reasons for why I'd be choosing the Panasonic 65" plasma over a RPTV of any type (that includes experience viewing most of the top digital RPTVs, as well as top-notch CRT RPTVs, ISF calibrated etc).

I choose plasma for the different look to the image, that I just don't quite get from the RPTVs. There is a vibrancy and to me life-like dynamic of light play that is captivating.
There's also what I see as a more palpable, more "there" image, vs the somewhat holographic, projected, "shifty" quality of any RPTV I've seen. Then there is the impression of stunning clarity that you can get in a plasma. (The most amazing HD images I've ever seen, in terms of pure realism, came recently from viewing the new Pioneer FHD1 1080p plasma).

So, even as someone who is somewhat obsessed with black levels myself, I've been willing to trade on the black levels in order to enjoy some of the unique qualities of plasmas over RPTVs. In controlled lighting (I view in the dark, with black backdrop and black masking when necessary), when the plasma screen glass disappears, the sensation of an ultra-direct, pure image is captivating and I have not seen it quite re-created by another technology.

If that kind of quality appeals to you, then it's possible you might also find the plasma-black trade-offs acceptable for now too. And that extra real estate, jumping up to 65" really pays off in terms of a cinematic experience. I find even the 60" displays don't feel "big" like 65" of plasma appears.

But for the most film-like image, deeper blacks, probably better shadow detail,
CRT RPTVs still reign.

I think I could live with the Panasonic if I used bias lighting, but without it, the grey blacks would drive me nuts.

A modified SXRD is an unknown quantity at this stage. When I get to test one with my notebook PC, Spyder Pro and some test screens, I will be able to get a good idea of how SSE will be affected by a neutral density filter, and what black levels to expect.
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post #186 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Owen, you actually should get a pretty big jump in resolution. Forget the screen shots. Your Hitachi RPTV probably has 7" guns. With that arrangement you're generally lucky if you can get 1400 lines of horizontal resolution. You need a RPTV with 9" guns to even have a shot at the full 1920X1080 (and that's assuming perfect convergence, focus etc.....not very likely). So the Panasonic will give you the full 1920X1080, which will represent a nice jump up in horizontal resolution.

Now of course the subject of source comes up and if all you do is watch Directv, you'll gain nothing since D* doesn't do 1920X1080 anyway. But if you watch HD DVD, that's another story.

In theory what you say is accurate, however in the reality there are many complications.
As far as CRT RPTV's are concerned, there is more to resolution then tube size alone.
Raster size, beam spot size and the bandwidth of the driving electronics all have there part to play and all three need to be adequate to provide high resolution.

My modified Hitachi has 7 tubes, but has had the CRT's relocated closer to the mirror to remove overscan and allow a larger then standard raster size.
It can easily display a one pixel wide vertical and horizontal lines at my HTPC's resolution of 1712x1080 with no overscan. The virtual lines are almost as bright as the horizontal lines, so the bandwidth of the driving electronics is up to the task.

The thing is that 1712x1080 is actually plenty for 1080 HD video, as no 1920x1080 video has 1920x1080 visible resolution.
Digitized video has strict Nyquist limits and is filtered accordingly to avoid artifacts above the Nyquist limit of 960 horizontal, and that is before video compression degrades it further.
Lenses on HD video and even cinema film cameras have very significant limitations that mean 1920x1080 resolution (fully resolved) is unattainable.
Sonys top range studio 1080 video cameras, fitted with the best available lenses, have an MTF of only about 45% at 800 horizontal, and little more then 10% at 1400 horizontal, which is considered the maximum usable resolution of those cameras.
An MTF of 45% means that pixel to pixel contrast is only 45% at the specified resolution, so at 1400 horizontal a typical 1920x1080 HD camera will reproduce an alternating black and white line pattern as 5% white and 5% black, which is not exactly impressive now is it.
Film sources can be better, as they can be digitizes at much higher resolutions, like 3840x2160, or double 1920x1080 to alleviate the Nyquist sampling limit.
However film stock and lens performance in cinema cameras is still a significant limitation, so that fully resolved 1920x1080 resolution (100% MTF) is not possible.
The best one can expect from film is around 1700 horizontal, and with a low MTF of less then 50%.

BluRay and HDDVD are still heavily compressed formats that will degrade the resolution of the master, so 1920x1080 visible resolution is a myth in practice, and is not even available from the master.
The only single pixel detail available in video is the sharp edges of compression artifacts, and there is no advantage in reproducing those faithfully.

So, for video playback, a digital 1920x1080 display has little practical advantage over a good 1080 CRT RPTV.
PC text and graphics will be sharper on a digital model, but video is a different story.

Image sharpness and detail are also not the same thing. Low resolution displays can be very sharp and high resolution displays can look quite soft.
Sharpness has more to do with contrast then resolution.

The issue of resolvable detail in 1920x1080 video source is widely misunderstood in this and other forums.
People wrongly assume that because video has 1920x1080 pixels that it also has 1920x1080 visible resolution. That is simply not the case.
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post #187 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 05:04 AM
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@Owen, thanks for the interesting information.

Let's look 2-10 years into the future. I guess camera lenses will keep getting better. Do you think we'll have near 1920x1080 resolution available (before compression) on HD-DVD/BluRay in a few years?

I guess with computer generated animation, most of these limits don't apply and the only limiting factor is the compression?
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post #188 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 05:41 AM
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I can't see how existing limitations will magically go away, even in 10-20 years.
It's difficult to believe that lens technology will take a quantum leap any time soon.
The resolution of CCD's will continue to improve, as will compression technology, but lenses will most likely continue to be a restriction.
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post #189 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 06:07 AM
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If I think about still cameras, they can do much better than 2 megapixel, can't they? Of course what the marketing sais is not real life. But still, my impression was that still cameras can really do much better than 2 megapixel. If that's true, why do still camera lenses not have these limitations?
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post #190 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donstim View Post

Rich H,

I remember you being fairly impressed with the Pioneer 6070. What's your take on a comparison of the Pio with the 65" 1080p Panny? One of these days, my local shop will have them both on display so that I can see them myself, but I'm getting impatient.

donstim,

I've had virtually no time to test out the Pioneer 6070 plasma in a controlled manner, so all I have are some in-store impressions. But as I wrote before I have been super impressed with that plasma. It has an almost magically beautiful image, in terms of color richness and realistic, dynamic contrast, which makes for a very deep rich image. On my way to see the Panasonic TH-65PX600U for my most recent "review" I had the amazing color rendition of the Pioneer swimming in my head as the one to beat in that regard.

The previous Panny 65" 7gen model I am familiar with had "ok" color richness, but nothing like the Pioneer. I was happy to see the new 9gen 1080p Panny had made steps forward in color detail, so I wasn't left pining for the Pioneer while watching the Panasonic. However, I think side-by-side the Pioneer would still perhaps impress with it's color richness and more vivid (higher peak brightness) image. Between the two I'd still take the Panasonic for it's smooth pixel structure (I find I have to back off on the Pioneer in order not to see it's pixel structure), and larger image. But if Pioneer made a 65" plasma with the same color detail and vividness of it's 60" model I'd be very attracted to that.

For me, although the Pioneer can be found at a very good price, I hesitate to purchase it because it would be taking funds away from being able to purchase what a I really want; a larger plasma with 1080p resolution.

Rich H


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post #191 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Owen View Post


The issue of resolvable detail in 1920x1080 video source is widely misunderstood in this and other forums.
People wrongly assume that because video has 1920x1080 pixels that it also has 1920x1080 visible resolution. That is simply not the case.


I keep saying that in all my comparisons of 1080p displays vs 720p displays, side by side, I rarely see any more actual detail in the 1080p displays. Rather, the pixel density of the 1080p displays tend to render small details in a smoother, more fine manner (the way you don't see pixel structure breaking up fine details, or giving them jagged edges - the 1080p models make for more natural-looking fine detail). And it is in that way, not necessarily actual added detail, that I find 1080p display images more inviting and more natural.

This is why I was never expecting to flip out over the new 1080p plasmas in the expectation I would be seeing significantly more detail in their image.

(And, again, as you say - contrast has a lot to do with perceived image detail. AVS' Alan Gouger even has a thread going in the projector forum stating he's replaced his 1080p Sony SXRD projector with a punchier 720p DLP projector, on which he now sees more details than he did with the "higher res" 1080p projector).

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post #192 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 06:21 AM
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Lens technology hasn't changed much in the last 20, maybe 30 years.

In my opinion, the limiting factor is likely to be the willingness of a manufacturer and by extention the consumer, to spend the dollars necessary to build it.

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post #193 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

...snip...

(And, again, as you say - contrast has a lot to do with perceived image detail. AVS' Alan Gouger even has a thread going in the projector forum stating he's replaced his 1080p Sony SXRD projector with a punchier 720p DLP projector, on which he now sees more details than he did with the "higher res" 1080p projector).

Can't help but wonder how much of what's going on has to do with 1080p signals aren't making it all the way to the 1080p panel.

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post #194 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I keep saying that in all my comparisons of 1080p displays vs 720p displays, side by side, I rarely see any more actual detail in the 1080p displays. Rather, the pixel density of the 1080p displays tend to render small details in a smoother, more fine manner (the way you don't see pixel structure breaking up fine details, or giving them jagged edges - the 1080p models make for more natural-looking fine detail). And it is in that way, not necessarily actual added detail, that I find 1080p display images more inviting and more natural.


I have never considered 720-768p digital displays of the size I require, suitable at my viewing distance, due to visible pixel structure. That is why I intend to stayed with the smooth pixel free performance of CRT RPTV until a suitable digital replacement can be found.
I certainly can see a difference in detail between 720p and 1080i/p video source on my 57 screen at my 8-9' viewing distance, and I don't want to settle for less then 1080, even if it cannot be fully resolved.
Until something better comes along, the 65 Panasonic and 70 Sony are the only contenders.
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post #195 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 07:07 AM
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Can't help but wonder how much of what's going on has to do with 1080p signals aren't making it all the way to the 1080p panel.

Thats not the problem.
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post #196 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

donstim,

I've had virtually no time to test out the Pioneer 6070 plasma in a controlled manner, so all I have are some in-store impressions. But as I wrote before I have been super impressed with that plasma. It has an almost magically beautiful image, in terms of color richness and realistic, dynamic contrast, which makes for a very deep rich image. On my way to see the Panasonic TH-65PX600U for my most recent "review" I had the amazing color rendition of the Pioneer swimming in my head as the one to beat in that regard.

The previous Panny 65" 7gen model I am familiar with had "ok" color richness, but nothing like the Pioneer. I was happy to see the new 9gen 1080p Panny had made steps forward in color detail, so I wasn't left pining for the Pioneer while watching the Panasonic. However, I think side-by-side the Pioneer would still perhaps impress with it's color richness and more vivid (higher peak brightness) image. Between the two I'd still take the Panasonic for it's smooth pixel structure (I find I have to back off on the Pioneer in order not to see it's pixel structure), and larger image. But if Pioneer made a 65" plasma with the same color detail and vividness of it's 60" model I'd be very attracted to that.

For me, although the Pioneer can be found at a very good price, I hesitate to purchase it because it would be taking funds away from being able to purchase what a I really want; a larger plasma with 1080p resolution.

Thanks Rich. At my 12 foot viewing distance, it may come down to whether that 5 additional diagonal inches significantly increases the immersion factor.
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post #197 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

donstim,

I've had virtually no time to test out the Pioneer 6070 plasma in a controlled manner, so all I have are some in-store impressions. But as I wrote before I have been super impressed with that plasma. It has an almost magically beautiful image, in terms of color richness and realistic, dynamic contrast, which makes for a very deep rich image. On my way to see the Panasonic TH-65PX600U for my most recent "review" I had the amazing color rendition of the Pioneer swimming in my head as the one to beat in that regard.

The previous Panny 65" 7gen model I am familiar with had "ok" color richness, but nothing like the Pioneer. I was happy to see the new 9gen 1080p Panny had made steps forward in color detail, so I wasn't left pining for the Pioneer while watching the Panasonic. However, I think side-by-side the Pioneer would still perhaps impress with it's color richness and more vivid (higher peak brightness) image. Between the two I'd still take the Panasonic for it's smooth pixel structure (I find I have to back off on the Pioneer in order not to see it's pixel structure), and larger image. But if Pioneer made a 65" plasma with the same color detail and vividness of it's 60" model I'd be very attracted to that.

For me, although the Pioneer can be found at a very good price, I hesitate to purchase it because it would be taking funds away from being able to purchase what a I really want; a larger plasma with 1080p resolution.

I have to tell you, Rich, that I find it so hard to compare panels these days and I commend you for your in-depth reviews and comparisons. I hate to admit, this but I'm finding the differences between panels more and more difficult to discern. I was in a Best Buy/Magnolia store this past weekend and had occasion to see 3 popular panels at the same time: (a) the new 60" Pioneer Elite, (b) the 58" Panny 600u, and (c) the 65" Panny 600u (1080p) and thought that all of them looked good. The 60" Pioneer and the 58" Panny were side by side, while the 65" Panny was in a dedicated viewing area on its own about 10' away. Perhaps I'm just used to the way Pannys look (I am a very happy owner of a 65-8UK.) as I thought that the picture on the 58" Panny was more natural and richer than the 60" Pioneer. My brother, who was with me, liked the Pioneer's picture better at first but also gravitated toward the 58" Panny after a few minutes. (Note my caveat on limitations on picture adjustment in the next paragraph which impacted our ability to properly evaluate picture performance.) Having said this, the quality of the new 60" Pioneer is significantly improved over the prior model.

The picture on the 65" Panny was competitive to that on the 58" Panny and that was a pleasant surprise. I would have suspected that it would not be able to be as "bright," given its greater size. All 3 panels were stellar but, after seeing all of them up close, I have to admit that it was difficult for me to justify paying so much more for the 1080p option and the modestly increased size of the 65" panel. And, I say this as a person who thought he was in the market for the 65" 1080p panel. (I was also surprised that the picture quality of the 65" 1080p Panny was not materially different from that of the 65" 8UK panel that I have at home. Again, not having both 65" panels side-by-side for comparison purposes underscores that this opinion is subjective, at best.)

What frustrates me is that it is almost impossible to do the kind of side-by-side testing that one needs to do to reach fair conclusions. For example, we were able to adjust the Pannys with available remote controls. But, we could not adjust the Pioneer Elite because - for whatever reason - the remote would not work. (This was particularly frustrating for me because I suspected that, with adjustment, I would have been able to correct some green color push on the Pioneer that was clearly "dirtying up" the picture and not allowing the panel to shine.) Two of the panels were using the same video feed, but the 65" panel had its own. So, we were not able to use a DVD and see the same video on all 3 panels at the same time. Plus, even though 2 of the panels were side by side, the Pioneer was placed closer to the "Best Buy" side of the store and, as a result of its placement and piano black bezel, suffered more from annoying reflections/glare. The 65" Panny benefitted from being off to the side and, as a result, was more protected from reflections/glare.

Regardless, I couldn't help but conclude that all 3 panels were stellar and that once a buyer brought any of them home and had it installed, he/she would be happy with his/her choice. Thanks again for your stellar in-depth reviews. After personally inspecting all 3 panels yesterday, it is clear to me that my eyes could never be as discerning as yours or those of some of the other reviewers in this forum.
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post #198 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 08:32 AM
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If I had the previous 7th/8gen Panasonic 65" plasma I'd find it very hard to justify going to the 1080p panel on resolution alone. As you noticed, the difference is at best very subtle. But as someone stepping up from a 42" display, grabbing a 65" 1080p plasma is very enticing.

If I already owned a 65" Panasonic plasma I'd feel compelled to wait until there are significant differences in other parameters of image quality, such as increased contrast/color rendition etc.

I can see some motivation for a sort of "sideways" move from a big Panasonic plasma to a Pioneer
plasma. The big Panasonic 65" plasma to a large degree offers a "same but bigger" image from a smaller Panasonic plasma. Whereas Pioneer plasmas have always looked different from Panasonic, and have tended to look more color-rich, with greater peak brightness. But, then, Pioneer isn't making a 65" panel as far as I know, and going to it's current 60" you loose screen size and pixel density. From recent announcements it sounds like the next gen Pioneer 60" should be incredible, in terms of sheer image quality and steps forward in contrast and black levels.

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post #199 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 09:32 AM
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I still find black objects on the plasma tend to look more "solid" than the SXRD), and the SXRDs have tons of resolution and color detail (although the SXRD is known to have somewhat "hyped" colors).

Rich, I would think at least in 'theory', the resolution of both the 1080p Panny and the SXRD should be exactly the same given their both full 1080 displays. With a CRT that 'should' resolve everything within a 1920x1080 signal, there are many factors that would actually drop it down below that number (and sometimes significantly so). So it does bring up the very interesting question, do all 1080p fixed pixel displays actually show the same resolution? They should in 'theory', but do they? Of course apparent sharpness can differ from 1080p display to 1080p display when manufacturers choose to add additional edge enhancement and such. But resolution 'should' remain the same.

Uh oh, a new can of worms.
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post #200 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 09:41 AM
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Image sharpness and detail are also not the same thing. Low resolution displays can be very sharp and high resolution displays can look quite soft.
Sharpness has more to do with contrast then resolution.

The issue of resolvable detail in 1920x1080 video source is widely misunderstood in this and other forums.
People wrongly assume that because video has 1920x1080 pixels that it also has 1920x1080 visible resolution. That is simply not the case.

Excellent points Owen, I fully agree. We've talked on the forum for a long time about the limiting resolution of professional video cameras. The 1400 horizontal practical limit, pretty much puts that source within reach of 768 displays. Of course those displays still fall short on the vertical resolution side. Film is indeed our best shot at getting close to 1920X1080....if we're lucky.
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post #201 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 09:44 AM
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donstim,

I've had virtually no time to test out the Pioneer 6070 plasma in a controlled manner, so all I have are some in-store impressions. But as I wrote before I have been super impressed with that plasma. It has an almost magically beautiful image, in terms of color richness and realistic, dynamic contrast, which makes for a very deep rich image. On my way to see the Panasonic TH-65PX600U for my most recent "review" I had the amazing color rendition of the Pioneer swimming in my head as the one to beat in that regard.

The previous Panny 65" 7gen model I am familiar with had "ok" color richness, but nothing like the Pioneer. I was happy to see the new 9gen 1080p Panny had made steps forward in color detail, so I wasn't left pining for the Pioneer while watching the Panasonic. However, I think side-by-side the Pioneer would still perhaps impress with it's color richness and more vivid (higher peak brightness) image. Between the two I'd still take the Panasonic for it's smooth pixel structure (I find I have to back off on the Pioneer in order not to see it's pixel structure), and larger image. But if Pioneer made a 65" plasma with the same color detail and vividness of it's 60" model I'd be very attracted to that.

For me, although the Pioneer can be found at a very good price, I hesitate to purchase it because it would be taking funds away from being able to purchase what a I really want; a larger plasma with 1080p resolution.

Rich, how would you say the color detail is on the 65" 1080p Panny comared to the previously mentioned Pioneers?
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post #202 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 10:34 AM
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Rich, how would you say the color detail is on the 65" 1080p Panny comared to the previously mentioned Pioneers?

It seems to me very good, but I think still not as vividly rich as the Pioneer models. When I see the new Pro FHD1 and the 60" Pioneer I can hardly believe how richly colored those displays are.

But then, I haven't played with the 60" model and brought it's color down to a more realistic level, vs the pumped up settings I've seen. Nor have I played that much with the 1080p Panasonic's color levels. (I watched it for quite a while in the cinema mode, and only near the end turned the color up a bit and went "whoa, that sure added some more color detail.")

My AV sales acquaintance says I can come in any time with my HD-DVD player to compare the Pioneer FHD1 vs the new 1080p Panasonic on HD-DVD content.

Problem is, they are still trying to sell the old 7gen 65" Panasonic in order to make room to put up the new TH-65PX600U.

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post #203 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 10:42 AM
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The picture on the 65" Panny was competitive to that on the 58" Panny and that was a pleasant surprise. I would have suspected that it would not be able to be as "bright," given its greater size. All 3 panels were stellar but, after seeing all of them up close, I have to admit that it was difficult for me to justify paying so much more for the 1080p option and the modestly increased size of the 65" panel. And, I say this as a person who thought he was in the market for the 65" 1080p panel.

Jsf, interesting observations. I was shocked to see you mention a Magnolia/BB had the 65" 1080p on display. Which store was this? I'm hoping mine will get them on display soon!
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post #204 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 10:51 AM
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If I had the previous 7th/8gen Panasonic 65" plasma I'd find it very hard to justify going to the 1080p panel on resolution alone. As you noticed, the difference is at best very subtle. But as someone stepping up from a 42" display, grabbing a 65" 1080p plasma is very enticing.

If I already owned a 65" Panasonic plasma I'd feel compelled to wait until there are significant differences in other parameters of image quality, such as increased contrast/color rendition etc.

I can see some motivation for a sort of "sideways" move from a big Panasonic plasma to a Pioneer
plasma. The big Panasonic 65" plasma to a large degree offers a "same but bigger" image from a smaller Panasonic plasma. Whereas Pioneer plasmas have always looked different from Panasonic, and have tended to look more color-rich, with greater peak brightness. But, then, Pioneer isn't making a 65" panel as far as I know, and going to it's current 60" you loose screen size and pixel density. From recent announcements it sounds like the next gen Pioneer 60" should be incredible, in terms of sheer image quality and steps forward in contrast and black levels.

This is where I am at. It has been great reading reviews from you and others here and I have come to a similar conclusion. Black levels would be a lateral move but brightness, color, grayscales, freedom from noise, and resolution would all be improved.

Then there are the hints from D-Nice about stellar contrast ratios coming from Pioneer and Panasonic and perhaps some patent sharing.

I may still upgrade, but for now I will wait.

- Rich

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post #205 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

If I had the previous 7th/8gen Panasonic 65" plasma I'd find it very hard to justify going to the 1080p panel on resolution alone. As you noticed, the difference is at best very subtle. But as someone stepping up from a 42" display, grabbing a 65" 1080p plasma is very enticing.

If I already owned a 65" Panasonic plasma I'd feel compelled to wait until there are significant differences in other parameters of image quality, such as increased contrast/color rendition etc.

I can see some motivation for a sort of "sideways" move from a big Panasonic plasma to a Pioneer
plasma. The big Panasonic 65" plasma to a large degree offers a "same but bigger" image from a smaller Panasonic plasma. Whereas Pioneer plasmas have always looked different from Panasonic, and have tended to look more color-rich, with greater peak brightness. But, then, Pioneer isn't making a 65" panel as far as I know, and going to it's current 60" you loose screen size and pixel density. From recent announcements it sounds like the next gen Pioneer 60" should be incredible, in terms of sheer image quality and steps forward in contrast and black levels.

Actually, I'm not looking to replace my present 65" 8UK, I'm looking to add another panel elsewhere in the house. Having seen the Pioneer 60 and the Panny 58, I am leaning toward not spending the extra $$'s for the new 65" Panny.
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post #206 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 01:26 PM
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Jsf, interesting observations. I was shocked to see you mention a Magnolia/BB had the 65" 1080p on display. Which store was this? I'm hoping mine will get them on display soon!

It's their store in East Gate, located in Mt. Laurel/Moorestown, NJ. They just opened the Magnolia Section within an existing Best Buy store. I too was surprised to see it on display this weekend.
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post #207 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 01:57 PM
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Here's a picture of the Million dollar pedestal stand for anyone interested. Pic from Panasonic Italy website, still nothing on the North American side.

http://www.panasonic.it/Products_Inf...%7C865%7C4%7C1


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post #208 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 02:18 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^
I looked at the stands for other Panasonic plasmas this weekend and noticed that they are manufactured with a lot of "silver-looking" plastic. I hope for the MSRP of $1199 that Panasonic is offering something a little more substantial. Otherwise, I feel that they're really ripping off customers because the 65 inch commercial stand is made from heavy weight metal and is cheaper.
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post #209 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 03:18 PM
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Thanks for the discount code find.
I just ordered it using that code and got the same deal for $20 total, with no extra charges for S&H.

You're welcome John. Glad to hear you were able to make use of the coupon code.

That was the fourth code I tried, as all the other ones from more recent postings had already expired. Odds are this one fell through the cracks and will quickly become expired as well, once HQV notices this coupon code is still active.

Here is a link for those that don't know what we are talking about: http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm

Code: GoHQV
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post #210 of 743 Old 10-16-2006, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It appears that your old Pioneer CRT has some very significant and ugly edge enhancement enabled, which is not helping it at all.

Yes, I was surprised to find that EE that I had been blaming on the signal source was actually generated by my set. I always set sharpness to minimum so I wonder what was going on.

BTW, now that I have minimized reflections by adjusting the tilt and lighting, I am completely pleased by my new panel. I spent most of the time watching baseball and football this weekend muttering "wow" to myself. It is really a dramatic difference compared to my old RPTV.
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