Pioneer PDP-505CMX / 507CMX / 607CMX monitor - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 635 Old 01-24-2007, 07:10 AM
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Thanks for the response Gary: will do.
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post #182 of 635 Old 01-24-2007, 10:00 AM
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Got a strange one! (at least to me). My 505/KD combo has worked flawlessly & now that it's "broken in" & I've fiddled around a bit, PQ & rendition is even better (I didn't expect to imrove my initial picture). Yesterday, to watch an old VCR flick, I patched in my VCR unit using the s-video input. PQ was pretty danged good with the cable input via the VCR, but the minute I engaged the tape the picture was deranged, sort of reminded me of macrovision problems, flashing w/intermittant black segments. I then tried a tape from my old camcorder that I know to be good, no possibility of macrovision tampering, same results. Anybody else have problems like this...although I'm sure nobody on this forum uses VHS much! Any ideas? I did hook up the VCR to a "normal" tv via s-video and it played okay. I don't quite know how to approach the problem or what to tweak. ???

If ANYONE can help with this, believe it would be from this group!
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post #183 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 02:15 AM
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Does anyone know if the 507/607CMX can
1) perform 3:3 on a 480i/1080i from DVI and display at 72hz ?
2) accept 1080p24 from DVI and display it a 72hz ?

Thanks
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post #184 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 08:17 AM
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I installed and hooked up the 425 with the Key card last night. Invision made me the best deal of anyone I contacted and both arrived in less than a week.

The setup is pretty straight forward. The instructions form Key on where to set the horizontal position on the 425 didn't work for me, but did not present a problem; I just lined it up centered and went on.

The only thing feeding it last night was a DirectTv HR10-250 DVR. I didn't spent a lot doing comparisons but casual inspection showed no readily noticeable difference whether I input through HDMI or component either for SD or HD.

Picture quality is very high, my reference is a Pioneer Elite 510 rear projection which is still considered to be a hard display to beat by much. My initial impression is that the 425 is even better. The smaller screen size or processing seemed to make the the SD better on the 425; HD was outstanding as expected. I am not sure about black levels being as good yet; I had turned down the contrast and brightness to let it break-in; and will calibrate it with GetGray after it has more hours on it.

The number of options to adjust things between the 425 and the Key card are numerous and will keep a tweaker busy for some time.

I am very pleased with this combination and once again would like to thank the contributors to this thread for all the information that led me to this purchase.

There may be better 42" units out there but I doubt there are any that can match the performance at anywhere near this price point.

I will return with a more thorough evaluation in a couple of weeks after I get past break-in, calibration and have a Oppo 970 hooked up.

Greg
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post #185 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkgt View Post

I installed and hooked up the 425 with the Key card last night. Invision made me the best deal of anyone I contacted and both arrived in less than a week.

The setup is pretty straight forward. The instructions form Key on where to set the horizontal position on the 425 didn't work for me, but did not present a problem; I just lined it up centered and went on.

The only thing feeding it last night was a DirectTv HR10-250 DVR. I didn't spent a lot doing comparisons but casual inspection showed no readily noticeable difference whether I input through HDMI or component either for SD or HD.

Picture quality is very high, my reference is a Pioneer Elite 510 rear projection which is still considered to be a hard display to beat by much. My initial impression is that the 425 is even better. The smaller screen size or processing seemed to make the the SD better on the 425; HD was outstanding as expected. I am not sure about black levels being as good yet; I had turned down the contrast and brightness to let it break-in; and will calibrate it with GetGray after it has more hours on it.

The number of options to adjust things between the 425 and the Key card are numerous and will keep a tweaker busy for some time.

I am very pleased with this combination and once again would like to thank the contributors to this thread for all the information that led me to this purchase.

There may be better 42" units out there but I doubt there are any that can match the performance at anywhere near this price point.

I will return with a more thorough evaluation in a couple of weeks after I get past break-in, calibration and have a Oppo 970 hooked up.

Greg

Greg,

Thanks for the info. Glad you are pleased with your new display. Does the combination allow gamma adjustment?

Cheers,

Gary
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post #186 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 09:04 AM
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Gary,

The Pioneer panel has a sub menu that has gamma adjustments. The setup instructions from Key had me adjust it from the Pio default of 2.0 to 2.2. I am new to this adjustment so I really don't know what that setting changed accomplished?

I did not look for it in the Key menus but I will get back to you on it.

Greg
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post #187 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 09:14 AM
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The higher the gamma number, the darker the picture. fwiw

NEC defaults to 2.2
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post #188 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkgt View Post

Picture quality is very high, my reference is a Pioneer Elite 510 rear projection which is still considered to be a hard display to beat by much. My initial impression is that the 425 is even better. The smaller screen size or processing seemed to make the the SD better on the 425; HD was outstanding as expected. I am not sure about black levels being as good yet; I had turned down the contrast and brightness to let it break-in; and will calibrate it with GetGray after it has more hours on it.

Not to mention how cheap this setup is compared to the PDP- 4270HD.
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post #189 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkgt View Post

Gary,

The Pioneer panel has a sub menu that has gamma adjustments. The setup instructions from Key had me adjust it from the Pio default of 2.0 to 2.2. I am new to this adjustment so I really don't know what that setting changed accomplished?

I did not look for it in the Key menus but I will get back to you on it.

Greg

Thanks. So the gamma is in the display not the card.

One clarification please. In this display, is the gamma adjustment provided globally, that is only one adjustment that effects RGB all at the same time or are there also individual gamma adjustments for each of R,G, and B?

BTW gamma refers to the display's output intensity as a function of its input signal/voltage (it is the exponent in the relationship) and is most noticable in the mid-tones (with brightness most determining the low tones and contrast determining the high tones). For physical and historical reasons, this relationship is not linear but rather a curve. Gamma is an exponent in the math and larger values move the curve to the right leaving the intensity darker for any given input.

2.2 is considered neutral for a plasma but since in some displays some colors might not track the same as others as a function of input, it is always good to have a display that allows individual gamma adjustments per primary RGB.

Cheers,

Gary
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post #190 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 10:16 AM
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Gary,

Again I am not sure how this relates to Gamma. The Key card does allow individual gain adjustment and setup of RGB saved for each input. I think those setting are beyond my level of comfort to mess with though.

Greg
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post #191 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 11:59 AM
 
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Has anyone actually done a side by side comparison of the 5070HD and the 507CX with the Key Card or any other card? If so what were the results of the actual picture?


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post #192 of 635 Old 01-25-2007, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parkgt View Post

Gary,

Again I am not sure how this relates to Gamma. The Key card does allow individual gain adjustment and setup of RGB saved for each input. I think those setting are beyond my level of comfort to mess with though.

Greg

Thanks. Gain adjustments are different than gamma adjustments. I was just curious.

Thanks again and keep us posted on you observation of PQ.

Cheers,

Gary
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post #193 of 635 Old 01-26-2007, 08:16 AM
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for those who want to save $ on the ___cmx combos(and are NOT going to hang it on the wall), i just found, and bought, a pair of insignia bookcase speakers for under 20$ on sale at BB. sound is as good as expected on ANY pdp for 1/20 the price! VERY easy to hook up, no extra wires/cables needed except the rca cables from the receiver to the key card. have a nice weekend!
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post #194 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 09:43 AM
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I just purchased a PDP-507CMX. I have it hooked up to my Media Center Machine via the built in DVI Port. Everything is working great with that. Picture is wonderful.

Now I have some processor questions.

I was thinking of purchasing the Key Digital Card. However I am hearing of the following drawbacks:

1. Does not take advantage of the Native 1365x768 resolution
2. Does not support 1080P inputs.
3. Also hearing about some VCR related problems.
4. If you use the key digital card it must be scaling and processing within the card and then scaling again within the 5070 iteself to fill the screen properly. It is my understanding that this can degrade the picture somewhat. And also introduce timing problems related to the audio and lipsync.

What about this alternative configuration:

Why not use the 5003 or 5004 card if nessary to unlock the DVI port for HDCP? Then use an external processor like a DVDO or equiv. If we can select one that supports 1365 x 768. Then we should have a better quality picture than the Key Digital Option. Also we can have a much wider choice of video processing externally.

Comments and sugestions please!

Eric
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post #195 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 09:51 AM
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^^^^You answered your own question. You are correct with the last statement. There are a ton of options out there. Either way a person can gain a great panel.

Also Key Digital is still claiming that they can get Native 1365x768 resolution with the proper settings of the card. The new Key cards seem to be working fine now with there revisions. Very few hang ups I am hearing about.
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post #196 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 10:05 AM
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Thanks for the responce chris.

I am still unclear about the HDCP support issues. Do I need the 2003 or 4 card at all?

Apparently those cards are two generations old. I have heard that there may be some HDCP Compatibilty problems with them? Is that true?

If the Key digital sorted out the issues and now support native rate. Why is this so hard to confirm. Cant someone just hit the display button on the remote and get the input rate to the panel displayed to see what the Key Digital Card is sending to the 507?

We are dealing with an exact science here, and there seems to be no definitive info about the Key Digital Card. It would be nice to put this to bed once and for all so we all know the real facts? I might even purchase one from you!

Eric
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post #197 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 11:33 AM
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Your right it would be nice to put this to bed. None of my clients get the native rate that I know of at this point, I believe most of them are all right with this as the picture is stunning as is. Key Digital still claims they can get native rate......

Just a note the 425CMX are just about gone, the 427CMX should be hitting any day!!
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post #198 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Your right it would be nice to put this to bed. None of my clients get the native rate that I know of at this point, I believe most of them are all right with this as the picture is stunning as is. Key Digital still claims they can get native rate......

Just a note the 425CMX are just about gone, the 427CMX should be hitting any day!!

whats the difference in the 2, 425-427??
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post #199 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 12:01 PM
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Well the 427CMX is the new model with some upgrades including a single pain of glass and it looks like Pioneer has it up to (hidden, Google is amazing ) 427CMX <<>>
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post #200 of 635 Old 01-28-2007, 11:09 PM
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I got a good deal on a 505cmx that is coming later this week and I was planning on getting the KD card as well. I'm picking up a new receiver to go with it all, and I'm wondering if I should buy a real nice upconverting receiver instead of buying the kd card (I could just use an HDMI->DVI cable to connect to the monitor)? Maybe I'm underestimating what the KD card does, but it would be nice if I could buy a nicer received instead of buying the kd card.

The second question is if I'm going to buy the KD card, then I'm guessing that I shouldn't run the video sources through my receiver anyways, so a basic (non-HDMI switching) receiver would be fine (like the Panny xr57 or xr55). Thoughts?
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post #201 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 07:48 AM
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I compared the 507cmx to the Panasonic 50" 9th Gen (side by side) and found that pioneer 507CMX renders much better blacks. I was looking at underwater cave scenes and found much better detail in very dark areas. This was in a controlled environment with the same source material fed to both displays simultaneously.

The panasonic displays were very good, just not quite as good in the area of contrast.

Now the second issue that I have not sorted out yet, is if I should use internal or external video processing. You do however need some sort of processing and scaling with the CMX Series. It will not support inputs as needed without scaling.

eric
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post #202 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post

I compared the 507cmx to the Panasonic 50" 9th Gen (side by side) and found that pioneer 507CMX renders much better blacks. I was looking at underwater cave scenes and found much better detail in very dark areas. This was in a controlled environment with the same source material fed to both displays simultaneously.

The panasonic displays were very good, just not quite as good in the area of contrast.

Now the second issue that I have not sorted out yet, is if I should use internal or external video processing. You do however need some sort of processing and scaling with the CMX Series. It will not support inputs as needed without scaling.

eric

Eric,

Good to know. You didn't mention whether you had access to the remotes and made adjustments in brightness/contrast for shadow detail. Would be nice to know. Also how were the displays connected and what card if any did the cmx have?

Cheers,

Gary
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post #203 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinpoolman View Post

I
The second question is if I'm going to buy the KD card, then I'm guessing that I shouldn't run the video sources through my receiver anyways, so a basic (non-HDMI switching) receiver would be fine (like the Panny xr57 or xr55). Thoughts?

In most cases a upscaling receiver probably would not scale as good as the Key Digital Card unless it was a very good and probably an expensive one. I would do direct video to the unit, bypass the Receiver, sometimes using the Receiver as a switcher can devalue a video signal.

Check out www.adcom.com new line of AV receivers. These receivers are Ultra high end and sell for a little more than Yamaha, Denon and other common brands.
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post #204 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post

Thanks for the responce chris.

I am still unclear about the HDCP support issues. Do I need the 2003 or 4 card at all?

Apparently those cards are two generations old. I have heard that there may be some HDCP Compatibilty problems with them? Is that true?

Eric

I'll say it again since it doesn't seem to sink in ... I hooked up my HD-DVD player directly to the panel's DVI port without any card in the slot and was able to display HDCP protected content without issue.

The limitation there is that the DVI port doesn't accept 1080i. It accepts 720p or 1360x768p. So you'll need an external scalar of some sort if you want to feed it 1360x768 as most upscaling DVD/Receivers don't output that ...
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post #205 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Your right it would be nice to put this to bed. None of my clients get the native rate that I know of at this point, I believe most of them are all right with this as the picture is stunning as is. Key Digital still claims they can get native rate......

That's interesting since the last time I talked to their lead Engineer for the card Brett Kang, he said he talked to Pioneer engineers and the limitation was in the Pioneer set itself. Is there new information or is this just continuing FUD to try to distract people from the (mostly non-issue) limitation here?
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post #206 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:33 AM
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^^^^Call Pioneer they have a different answer. In fact a member who has posted in this thread is using a Pioneer PDA-5004 and he says his screen flashed the native rate of the panel on the on screen menu.
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post #207 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^^Call Pioneer they have a different answer. In fact a member who has posted in this thread is using a Pioneer PDA-5004 and he says his screen flashed the native rate of the panel on the on screen menu.

lol does this person want to step forward please so we can clear this up?
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post #208 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 12:57 PM
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can you hook up speakers to these without using a receiver?
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post #209 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 01:15 PM
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I spoke to an engineer at key digital this morning on this issue, since I am in the market for a Video Processor for the PDP-507CMX.

I would like to point out from the start, that I am completely neutral on the subject. I have nothing to gain either way. In fact I have more to gain if it worked at the native rate than not. Since it is a cost effective solution.

I can tell you that they were very very evasive on this issue. It is obviously a very sensitive issue with them! The were running around the subject matter and blaming Pioneer where they could. I literally had to ask him to be straight with me and quit dancing around the subject matter.

The facts are that the key Digital in combination with the PDP-507CMX is limited to a 1280x720 scan rate. Regardless of whos fault it is. I really do not care!

He also confirmted that Pioneer panel will then scale a second time in order to fill the screen up to 1365x768. Otherwise you would have an image less than the full screen.

To make this absolutly clear, he did confirm that there is double scaling going on with this solution.

Now to be fair to Key Digital, there are many good reports on the picture quality with this solution. But I think I can do better with an external video processor.

My only concern is the proper support for HDCP using the Pioneer 2003 or 2004 card if necessary. I have my HTPC Connected to the 507 now, and it looks great at the native rate. But I have not yet tested the Scientific Atlanta HD-DVR or my X-Box 360 with HD-DVD yet. So I do not have a complete solution.

But I do not think the Key Digital is the best solution here unless you need integrated support without an external box. Or if there are HDCP issues that arise from external boxes.

I hope that clears things up a little.

Eric
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post #210 of 635 Old 01-29-2007, 01:20 PM
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Off the Subject why do my posts show up 5 hours off.

Is this server in europe?
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