Reflections and Plasma - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at plasma televisions last week, starting my research as I think I am over the potential "burn in" risk, if I break it in properly.

I was curious why the Pioneers are so much more expensive than the Panny's and Samsungs. I realize internal processing is very important, and that is probably most of that price differnce.

The individual at the store told me that Pioneer uses something like 2 paned glass I think, that reduces the reflections? He actually proved it to me by telling me to look at the reflection of the stores ceiling lights reflecting off of the plasma's screen.

On the pioneer I saw the reflection of the light, just that, one light. The reflection of the light on other manufacturers screens showed each light as doubled, like a halo around the light itself, covering twice as much area on the screen.

I know that sounds confusing, but would that characteristic make the Pioneers appear less reflective during use? And more importantly, how bad is the reflective quality of the higher end plasmas, are they unwatchable during the day with any ambient light, or is that one of the myths being propagated by Plasma haters.

I have a room with one large window to the side of my room, it has blinds and drapes avaialble, but in reality my wife and child wont watch tv in the dark during the day.

Just trying to determine if reflections alone should be the deal breaker.

Thanks
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post #2 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 07:17 AM
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If you have a tube TV, check out how it looks when sunlight hits it. That's how your plasma TV will look if ambient light hits it. But considering most plasmas are brighter than most tube TVs, that should be around the worst it looks.

If you have a very sunny room, then putting ANY TV in it is not going to be smart. Not even LCDs escape this problem. (Ever try using a laptop outside?) It's better with a well-manufactured LCD panel, but the problem won't go away unless we find some way to use digital ink to produce fast-moving color images, because any back-lit or light-producing display technology is going to run into this problem.
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post #3 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 07:25 AM
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There is a small minority of us that like a bit of relection in the screen, not glare but reflection. It gives the picture a little depth and dimension. When I look at the picture on an LCD it looks like it was painted on the screen. No depth or dimension, just flat.
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post #4 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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To try to replicate the experience, I recently moved my 50" CRT RPTV from it's corner placement, to flush with our back wall, where the wife wants the new tv to go.

Last year I bought a plastic, protective screen that is very reflective (Never had as a bachelor and didn't want the glare) and I do see some reflections.

However, not as bad as I imagined from reading all the complaints about plasma and needing a totally dark room.

The wood blinds can be tweaked to let some sun in without hitting the screen per se, and at night we can make it almost entirely dark. I think I am going to do it.

My initial thoughts was a 50" Panasonic, but not sure how much better the Pioneer 1140 might be, since it is nearly twice as expensive and I haven't found one to view in person yet.

Thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

Doug
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post #5 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 08:17 AM
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If you have the ability to place your PDP at just the right angle and location
in the room, external light sources quickly become a non-issue.

Also, daytime viewing content plays a huge role in the degree of reflection
you may experience.

Watching content with bright vivid colors shows little to no reflection at all.
I mostly watch Sports or Nature/Documentary/Discovery channel stuff during the day.

If you want to view a movie with a lot of dark scenes like
Batman or Underworld etc...simply leave that for later in the evening ;)
(or just close the blinds)

I have a HUGE 8'-0" wide x 6'-8" high patio door facing south
My Pioneer 5070 in the corner at 45º looks great even with the curtains open.

http://members.shaw.ca/ecojeeper/RWAV2.jpg

My First Home Theater
...When a Kuro plasma still isnt enough, make your movie Experience Larger than Life with a Projector!
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post #6 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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TV looks incredible, thanks for including the photo.

The day time viewing will be mostly cartoons, which are almost always bright and colorful. I dont watch much tv during the day (at work, wife and daughter are home), except football on weekends.

It seems that if I get a little reflection, I can tweak the blinds a bit.

Would you say the glass used and processing power of the Pio Pro 1140 is worth the $4K + price tage, or would I be just as happy with the 5070/5071?

Thanks again, and nice bike too!
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post #7 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DReilly1
TV looks incredible, thanks for including the photo.

The day time viewing will be mostly cartoons, which are almost always bright and colorful. I dont watch much tv during the day (at work, wife and daughter are home), except football on weekends.

It seems that if I get a little reflection, I can tweak the blinds a bit.

Would you say the glass used and processing power of the Pio Pro 1140 is worth the $4K + price tage, or would I be just as happy with the 5070/5071?

Thanks again, and nice bike too!
Well the Cartoons look Great!, even in daylight.
....especially the new CGI DVD's like Cars and Ice Age

and HD Football from Fox looks better on this panel @ 1080i
than any other source I feed it (IMHO)

screen shots from my 5070
on up-converting Pio DV-490V DVD player

http://members.shaw.ca/ecojeeper/x7.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/ecojeeper/x13.jpg

I also run an XBOX 360 with HD-DVD player @ 1080i
and it looks AMAZING :eek:

I know little about the Pio Pro models other than they may be better for geek-tweeking, and possibly for PC use and networking.

For HD cable (I have a Motorola HD DCT), Up Converted DVD's, HD-DVD's and XBOX 360 Gaming all set to output 1080i
the 5070 does everything perfectly for me.

My First Home Theater
...When a Kuro plasma still isnt enough, make your movie Experience Larger than Life with a Projector!
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post #8 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Your pictures, which again probably aren't as sweet as seeing it in real life, are amazing.

I have had this "I need 1080P" bug for so long, but your 768 Plasma might be all I need. I will be anywhere from 8 to 14 feet away, and from what I have heard, at that distance, 1080P wont give me much additional perceivable resolution.

So you game obviously then, ON THE xBOX 360. Did you do the 200 hour break in? Any Image retention yet?

Thanks for taking the time to help me, I was hell bent on Flat screen LCD and LcOs for the last 2 years, and now back looking at Plasma since it seems with common sense, Burn in is really not an issue, which left me with reflections.

I think I have found my HDTV, finally!
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post #9 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 09:58 AM
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Oh PioManiac - BTW, Nice bike!

Ottawa Ontario Canada
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post #10 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 09:59 AM
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I was there once too,

had my heart set on a Sony 50" 1080p Grand Vega

Plasma just took it up a notch , despite having a lower res.
I like the richness and depth of color and viewing angles.

I just got my XBOX last week, long after my 200 hour break-in at D-Nice's settings

So absolutely no image retention or burn in, even after marathon seesions of GOW and COD3 ;)

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...When a Kuro plasma still isnt enough, make your movie Experience Larger than Life with a Projector!
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post #11 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac
I was there once too,

had my heart set on a Sony 50" 1080p Grand Vega

Plasma just took it up a notch , despite having a lower res.
I like the richness and depth of color and viewing angles.

I just got my XBOX last week, long after my 200 hour break-in at D-Nice's settings

So absolutely no image retention or burn in, even after marathon seesions of GOW and COD3 ;)

SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which thread are D-Nice's settings in? Sorry if utterly stupid question, I will search in the meantime.
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post #12 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 10:22 AM
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Windows to the side of your seating position probably won't be as much of an issue compared to if you had windows behind where you sit. In the latter case, reflections on a plasma can be pretty bad. Don't worry about the break in issue, just watch a variety of content and you should have no problem.
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post #13 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it is one window, to the side, It is about 6 feet in front of the tv, and about 6 feet from the wall to the edge of the tv.

I might have an issue for an hour a day when the sun hits a certain point in the sky, but that is manageable, and nightime viewing should be perfect.

I am pretty excited that Plasma is back on my list. Thanks for your comments
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post #14 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 11:49 AM
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What about a big window (96" wide) directly behind the viewing couch, and windows on the walls that are 90 degrees on the two side walls? I love the Pio PQ, but I think that this might be too much light reflection to overcome... The white painted walls and light sheer curtains don't help much either. My 32" tube has waaaay too much glare and reflection in this spot. I can watch TV after 8PM, but before that, it's bad. Does that bode poorly for even a Pio plasma?

I'd rather not buy with the idea of returning it. I can always get a 37" plasma for the bedroon though.
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post #15 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 01:17 PM
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That sounds like a lot of ambient light, I'm not sure even an LCD will really make it look much better since you'll probably suffer from image washout due to lack of contrast on the screen regardless of reflections.

With plasmas being brighter, I've never even noticed ambient light in my viewing, but I don't have tons of windows aiming light at the screen and tend to use curtains during the day if I watch something anywhere near dark(just as I would with any display).
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post #16 of 34 Old 11-28-2006, 01:39 PM
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I have a very sunny room, I don't think Plasma glare is that bad. No worse than CRT, anyway.

Pic of my plasma in a sunny room

Shawn
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post #17 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 09:46 AM
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The entire back of my room is sliding glass doors, and I have no real glare problems with my Samsung 5053. The tv is about two to three feet from the glass, and because of the interesting angle of the windows the light is quite strong from sunup to sundown. I can tell that the picture doesn't look quite so vibrant, but once I'm out of break-in I'm sure that I can just switch to "dynamic" or "standard" during the day if I feel the need.
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post #18 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 09:50 AM
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Due to circumstances beyond my control, my 42" Sammy is directly opposite a double-hung, double-paned window. The opportunity for glare and multiple reflections is enormous, yet it hasnb't affected the viewing at all. Sure, it'll always look better in a darkened room with its backlight cranked.

But in the daytime, it is still quite a pleasure to view my programs.

Ottawa Ontario Canada
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post #19 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 10:05 AM
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Maybe where it's made put the cost up http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...6/DSC04447.jpg
We pay more than most countrys for quality labor. Love my tv. I game alot on it.
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post #20 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 10:27 AM
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chabuchie - Do I read you correctly that the windows are behind the plasma, such that when viewing you are looking at the windows? I wouldn't expect reflections from that setup.

Frost147 - Your windows are behind your seating position, yet you don't see reflections in the plasma? We have lots of windows behind where we sit and we can see reflections of trees, etc on the plasma glass (3.5 year old Panny) during the daytime. Do the Sammy's have a special anti-reflective coating?
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post #21 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 10:45 AM
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There are many things you can do with placement of a plasma to minimize glare and reflections. Putting it higher and at an slight down angle can eliminate the worst reflections because you are pointing it toward the ground. Also, controlling lighting in a room is not really that hard to do. I really must chuckle when LCD pushers actually say that LCD displays are not impacted by lighting. :rolleyes:

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post #22 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 11:25 AM
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I purchased a Panny plasma for my living room which has numerous windows. The glare i was getting off the screen during the day was horrible, mainly because I have windows that allow light to shine onto the screen from several angles. Because your room has a side window, I don't think you would have a problem at all with light. People who say you need to sit in a dark room to enjoy plasma have either A) never owned one or B) have a room like mine with a design that's just not conducive to plasma technology, and thats going to happen with very few people.

I ended up putting the Panny in the master bedroom and bought an lcd for the family room. The LCD does have light that reflects off it, but the screen diffuses it to a point that it's not nearly as distracting as the plasma.
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post #23 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 12:54 PM
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I have my Sammy roughly 40 inches off the ground and very slightly tilted downward - more or less around 85 degrees, vs. a full 90 degrees - to the table surface. It has eliminated any probs with reflections.

Ottawa Ontario Canada
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post #24 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 12:59 PM
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JimSD - Sorry I was unclear. My tv has its back to a wall, not a window. The windows start two feet to the left of the tv. A floorplan of the room would look like a monopoly house from the side - if that makes any additional sense. Or a square with a triangle on top. The tv is on one of the walls that adjoin the 45 degree walls of windows. This is more difficult to describe than I thought. I hope that helps though.
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post #25 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 01:33 PM
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I have one simple question. Is the glare/reflection/whatever on a plasma worse, equal to or less than a standard flat screen Sony SDTV WEGA? I have two of them, on in my "ht" room and there is very little glare unless I forget to cover the one small basement window at certain hours in the day. The other is in a living room with a large window that in early morning can show enough sun to wash out the screen, but otherwise it's livable. My wife does NOT like to watch TV in the dark so I have to endure the reflection of the lamp on occasion (I usually try to move off centre a bit and that eliminates the image of the lamp from my perspective). Now I've lived quite comfortably with each set in their respective rooms with the flat screen glass. So, if I go with a plasma (which could be sooner than I thought--an upgraded TV, I haven't decided which type yet), will it be no worse, in terms of screen reflections/glare than my current TVs?
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post #26 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 01:36 PM
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It'll be the about the same. It shouldn't be any worse.

Shawn
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post #27 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 01:49 PM
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So, in essence, worst case scenario is putting up with what has been normal since 1948? Not that we shouldn't seek better if we can, but the comments I've read in numerous places make it seem as though plasma was only suitable for a cave (I'm exaggerating, but not by that much). So it seems that my concerns regarding plasma are less severe than I'd imagined (re: glare/reflection and "burn-in"). From my early research, I'd just about excluded plasma from the get-go because of those two things (the latter being the most worrisome). I guess it's time for some comparison shopping (too bad you can't lug these things home as easily as a pair of standmount speakers).
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post #28 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation
So, in essence, worst case scenario is putting up with what has been normal since 1948? Not that we shouldn't seek better if we can, but the comments I've read in numerous places make it seem as though plasma was only suitable for a cave (I'm exaggerating, but not by that much). So it seems that my concerns regarding plasma are less severe than I'd imagined (re: glare/reflection and "burn-in"). From my early research, I'd just about excluded plasma from the get-go because of those two things (the latter being the most worrisome). I guess it's time for some comparison shopping (too bad you can't lug these things home as easily as a pair of standmount speakers).
I was afraid it would be unwatchable in normal environments from some of the comments I read. Saying the Plasma PQ was the best, if viewed in a dedicated completely devoid of ambient light home theater room.

Yet, I know a lot of people who own plasmas and love them, none of which even have them in a room without windows.

I am confident in the reflections no longer being a problem for me.

Last issue, IR and Burn In. Some posts vehemently defend a 100 to 200 hour break in, then basically no worries.

Others swer they broke the set in, and 1 hour of madden left weeks of IR. That is the last hurdle for me.
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post #29 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 02:26 PM
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Yes, the glare is exactly the same as a flat CRT. I think the old curved CRT's were worse because they can reflect from sources on the ceiling, floor, etc.
The only possible reason a plasma could have more reflections than a CRT is simply because of the larger screen.

It's usually the most fanatical of LCD fans who like to give the impression that plasma glare/reflection is something supernaturally bad.

Modern plasmas should have burn-in resistance as good as CRTs. That's what Panasonic was claiming 2yrs ago on the 7th gen panels, and is also my experience. I didn't break in my 2yr old Panny plasma at all. I just started using it to watch TV like I always do. I notice no burn-in or IR to speak of. I watch 4:3 content pillarboxed in black probably 90% of the time, the set is on 9-12hrs/day for 2yrs now.

Shawn
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post #30 of 34 Old 11-29-2006, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnatGoSplat
Yes, the glare is exactly the same as a flat CRT. I think the old curved CRT's were worse because they can reflect from sources on the ceiling, floor, etc.
The only possible reason a plasma could have more reflections than a CRT is simply because of the larger screen.

It's usually the most fanatical of LCD fans who like to give the impression that plasma glare/reflection is something supernaturally bad.

Modern plasmas should have burn-in resistance as good as CRTs. That's what Panasonic was claiming 2yrs ago on the 7th gen panels, and is also my experience. I didn't break in my 2yr old Panny plasma at all. I just started using it to watch TV like I always do. I notice no burn-in or IR to speak of. I watch 4:3 content pillarboxed in black probably 90% of the time, the set is on 9-12hrs/day for 2yrs now.
Good to hear, and thanks for posting your experience. I will go through the break in religiously, just my retentive nature, so I will hopefully be fine.

I am looking at either the Pioneer 5071, or the 58" Panny. I would think both of these are newer, higher quality panels, and should suit me fine.

Thanks
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